Discussion The Cost of Kit vs Scratch Build: A Real Divide or Just Perspective?

[Daniel20]

At the risk of really severe thread drift, I think you may have a good point here, Dan. A recent government study revealed that something like 54% of voting age Americans have reading comprehension abilities below the sixth-grade level. Reading is becoming a lost art, just as we've seen the demise of cursive handwriting in the nation's grammar schools. Audio and video have become the primary information mediums for many in the digital age. I fear I have assumed too much in unconsciously expecting this audience to have had the benefit of a classical liberal arts education which confers an appreciation of the "rules of rhetorical engagement," notably the avoidance of logical fallacies. (See: https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_...logic_in_argumentative_writing/fallacies.html) I've spent nearly a half century writing adversarial advocacy. I've written many hundreds of thousands of pages of argument in trial and appellate court briefs over the years. In that writing style, it isn't productive to equivocate or apologize for one's argument. It is expected that what one proposes will be vigorously asserted and plausibly maintained. It is taken as a given that opposing views will be similarly vigorously asserted and plausibly maintained. It is expected that rhetorical fallacies are to be avoided at all costs and the focus of discussions remain on the issues rather than on personalities or emotions. As those who have been taught logic and rhetoric, there is a science to arguing. None of it is "personal."

This "kits versus scratch" thing keeps coming up as a continual source of tension among model ship builders. Just last night, I was reading a sixteen-year-old back issue of the Nautical Research Journal with a feature article about the advantages of scratch building over kit building! I was surprised to see the same arguments in favor of scratch building in that article that I've seen made time and again up to the present day. I think it's a matter of opinion, really, since the two activities overlap a great deal, but are really quite different in many ways as well and the differing motivations for favoring either are distinct as well as individually valid. That said, what I find very remarkable is the highly charged reactions that some of the "kit building faction" exhibit whenever the subject rears its ugly head. This group is rather interesting, in that there seems to be a core of "leaders" who are experienced kit builders and often quite active forum participants with a chorus of beginning kit modelers in support and that they will often pick a fight even where no fight existed at all.

Some of the opposition by the "kit faction," is easily explained by self-interest. Some of these individuals are kit and aftermarket modeling product manufacturers, or shills for them, and their opposition is economically motivated. They are just protecting their "rice bowls." There seems to be another subset of "anti-scratchers," though, whose motives at first mystified me. After some observation and analysis, one explanation became clearer. These people are reacting with fear. They can't discuss the issue in any context without getting inordinately emotionally involved and, regrettably, often devolving quickly to ad hominem attacks and incoherent arguments, many of which are based upon some sort of New Age twisted egalitarianism that posits that not only does everybody have a right to their own opinion, but they also have a right to their own facts. This is how people who feel inadequate, whether justified or not, react when their adequacies are challenged, actually, or in their own imagination. Such challenges very realistically, in their minds, at least, threaten their self-identities. When one defines themself as a "ship modeler" because they build ship model kits, and somebody likens building ship model kits to coloring "paint-by-number kits" or "frozen TV dinners," or even intimating that scratch building might be an even slightly higher level of ship modeling, they can't help but feel as if somebody just accused them of being something less than they have identified themselves as being. They can't discuss the subject without feeling threatened. This is where their otherwise odd assertions of "discouraging others" and "gatekeeping" come from. I suppose, when dealing with this level of craziness, the reaction scratch building proponents get is to be expected and, significantly, it cannot be expected that they will be mollified by any amount of reassurance, qualification, or disclaiming. The bottom line is that as long as there is such a thing as scratch building model ships, its very existence is, in any comparison with kit building, going to necessarily manifest the inherent inferiorities of the latter.

I found it interesting that at one point some objected to what they perceived as a more "academic" approach to ship modeling with comments such as, "It's not the naval academy." and the like. My assertion that being able read lines drawings and know basic nomenclature were essential skills for serious ship modelers drew howls far beyond any reasonable expectation and, oddly, I thought, were characterized as "arrogant." In retrospect, I realize I didn't consider that there may be those who are highly invested in seeing themselves as "ship modelers" and lack the confidence to engage in intellectual pursuits I was promoting. For such folks, I guess saying, "If you want to be a ship modeler, you need to learn how to do these things." can easily be equated to being told they aren't smart enough to be ship modelers. That's very unfortunate and, of course not true, but it's an internal issue they are going to have to resolve themselves. Forward momentum is lost when we let the slowest soldier call the cadence.

Regrettably, when driven by an imagined existential threat posed by anyone who might be "better" than they are, people become the sworn enemies of the "better," and advocates for the "good enough" and the "all the same." In their charge to defend against any qualitative comparison in which they fear coming up short, they seek to destroy the "risk" of any qualitative comparisons at all. When the measure of quality becomes impossible, we've lost our bearings entirely. This entire discussion is, in many ways, a microcosm of our larger society. We've become so afraid of stepping on toes that we've paralyzed ourselves. In our effort not to hurt others' feelings, which is a good thing, although often necessary, we've lost sight entirely of the fact that organisms which fail to react to change go extinct.

Oh my God Bob, in one ill-conceived treatise you have managed to insult almost all my friends. I am saddened you did not take my previous comments in the Christian manner I gave them. You are gifted in prose but lacking in honesty and integrity. As you said before to @RussF, you Bob are probably used to hearing my type of response somewhere in your illustrious career before. This definitely concludes any further correspondence I will be having with you.

 

[Jimsky]

Let’s bring this back to the actual topic: The Cost of Kit vs Scratch Build—A Real Divide or Just Perspective?

We’ve drifted quite far into philosophical territory about terminology, credentials, and who qualifies as a "real" modeler. That’s not what this thread was meant to be about. The original question is straightforward:
Is there a meaningful cost difference between kit and scratch building, and does that influence how we approach the hobby, or is it more about perspective and personal preference?
Cost includes more than just money:

• Kits come with pre-cut materials, plans, and fittings, but often at a premium.
• Scratch building may save money on materials but adds cost in terms of time, tools, and research.

So what’s your take?

• Have you found kits more cost-effective or more limiting?
• Do you find scratch building actually more expensive due to trial, error, and specialized tools?
• Is this divide something we create ourselves, or is it real?

Let’s share real experiences, not dogma.

 

[Daniel20]

I have not ventured into scratch building so cannot say much about its cost. I love the hobby and the people in this forum and certainly love to see what others have done at this level. I consider scratch building the pinnacle of wood ship model building.

 

[paul ron]

i want you kids to behave. now take your meds!

https://thecinemaholic.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Nurse-Ratchet-One-Flew-Over-Cucko-Nest.jpg

 

[Roger Pellett]

There are some of us for which ship modeling is more than just a hobby. I became interested in ships in grade school. My father encouraged this interest in an effort to improve my less than mediocre grades. His efforts succeeded until by the skin of my teeth I was accepted into a selective Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering program where I flourished.

As an adjunct to an Engineering/Management career that did not involve Naval Architecture (I accepted the best job opportunity) I amassed an extensive maritime library specializing in Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering subjects and began to scratch build models. The research involved and the desire to hand make all parts means that by some standards my output has been rather meager (9 models)

I personally believe that late 20th early 21st society gives too little recognition to the accomplishments of earlier engineers. We ‘re not a bunch of semi- literate misfits punching computers in cubicles. I am tired of the comparison of any engineering glitch being compared to the SS Titanic; a well designed ship sunk by officers afraid to countermand the orders of her owner.

My ship models are, therefore, intended as monuments to one of these several engineering professions: that of the naval architect. They’re not just a hobby. They are things that I hope will have meaning to others when I’m gone. I wish that some on SOS could understand this point of view. After all, to you this might be just a hobby, but to some of us it’s much more.

Roger

 

[dockattner]

Oh my God Bob, in one ill-conceived treatise you have managed to insult almost all my friends. I am saddened you did not take my previous comments in the Christian manner I gave them. You are gifted in prose but lacking in honesty and integrity. As you said before to @RussF, you Bob are probably used to hearing my type of response somewhere in your illustrious career before. This definitely concludes any further correspondence I will be having with you.

Hi Daniel,

I was unaware of this forum feature, but if you pull up a particular member's profile you can choose to ignore them. They magically disappear from your feed. I have found this is a most agreeable solution. Blessings.

 

[Jimsky]

My ship models are, therefore, intended as monuments to one of these several engineering professions: that of the naval architect. They’re not just a hobby. They are things that I hope will have meaning to others when I’m gone. I wish that some on SOS could understand this point of view. After all, to you this might be just a hobby, but to some of us it’s much more.

Roger, I completely respect your perspective, and I think it’s great that your models carry such personal and professional significance for you. If they serve as monuments to naval architecture and engineering in your eyes, that’s something to be proud of.
For others, though, ship modeling may remain a beloved hobby, an artistic outlet, a way to relax, or simply to admire maritime history. Neither approach is wrong; we just come to the same craft from different angles. That diversity is what keeps the community interesting and alive.

But let’s not forget—we’ve shifted this thread back to the original topic: The Cost of Kit vs. Scratch Build: A Real Divide or Just Perspective? Let’s try to stay on course, rather than drifting back into personal manifestos. Let’s give space for others to speak too.

 

[Daniel20]

Hi Daniel,

I was unaware of this forum feature, but if you pull up a particular member's profile you can choose to ignore them. They magically disappear from your feed. I have found this is a most agreeable solution. Blessings.

Thanks Paul I’ll check it out.

 

[Steef66]

Hi Daniel,

I was unaware of this forum feature, but if you pull up a particular member's profile you can choose to ignore them. They magically disappear from your feed. I have found this is a most agreeable solution. Blessings.

That works, thanks.

By the way I got a visual about Bob. I had to think about Twin Peaks somehow.

 

[GIG1810]

A friendly hello to all modeling friends,

I am very pleased to be here and find that you are all very interesting modelers. Some have more experience, others less. One modeler is more talented at carving or gluing than the other. But that doesn't matter! We are all the same, because we have found our love for this hobby. I am always happy to receive suggestions or constructive criticism from you.
I now find that it is no longer possible to draw a clear line between self-build and kit. Many model builders also enjoy improving kits with their own self-built or purchased accessories. For me, it's always the result that counts. I can't keep up with producing thank-you meters or being the best model builder the world has ever seen. But I can keep up with the attention to detail or finishing the model. That is very important to me. The biggest and most important part for me is the time factor! As I'm still working and a family dad and husband, the hobby is always secondary!!!
The cost factor of buying plans and materials for research is also not to be sneezed at. Nevertheless, I think that if you assume that you already have all the tools you need, building it yourself is cheaper, except for the time factor.
But as I said, the question is, how far and how well do I want to build the model? In my opinion, the cost factor depends on this.

Best regards
Günther

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

 

[Rob. T.]

Ooff!!! What have I just sailed into..
Apologies for not seeing this thread earlier.

"Cost of kit v Scratch build"
Myself personally I have looked into Scratch building interms of cost, not just of Materials but i Plans( if they are accurate depending on who has made them) and tools( Proxon this Proxon that, is that really necessary to have top of the range tools? Don't think shipwrights had these bk in the 17th century etc.. ) well as workroom area all of which are way outwith my own pocket especially as I don't have a work room as such only my kitchen table now.
Don't get me you could still start old school basics of Scratch building from some of the "Old hobbies plans" I have posted on this forum even if they are not accurate and is something i may try at a later date like the "Great Harry ship"

Kits are more affordable to the majority of us, but still not cheap, and for the majority of us it's a hobby first and foremost to relax and enjoy, and most importantly if we can encourage a younger generation to take it on and secure our Hobby's future.
Depending on which kit you buy it's best to check YouTube for an unboxing to see what your getting before parting with your hard earned cash. The cost of kits is dependent on research of the quality of manufacturers other kits as well imho and the age of the kit you are buying.
Myself personally I usually buy after market for all my kits albeit mostly to enhance my kit rather than replace anything( rigging thread being an exception in most cases) so obviously I take this also into consideration regards to the cost of a particular kit as well before buying it, even so imho buying a kit is far more cost effective for myself even with aftermarket purchases.
I have Scratch built small details for kits mostly deck details, but like a plastic kit I replace all the masts and yards(and maybe the decks depending on scale/size) with wood.
I also make and hand sew my own Cloth sails from scratch for either of my Wood or Plastic kit of which I am building.
As minimal as it is we all do a bit of Scratch building with in our kits at some point for the most of us.

My conclusion obviously as I have stated is that kits are way more affordable to myself although I do look to add, be it aftermarket or Scratch build something to enhance that kit, as from a personal point of view kits are always there to be improved upon by the individual if they so want, just a case of research and a bit of imagination or out othe box thinking, we can have the best of both worlds regards to kits and scratch building.
I like to push my boundaries regards to the ships I build but can only do that in the way that is cost effective to myself.

 

[Pierre_Autin]

Ship modeling isn't the Special Olympics where "everybody gets a prize" just for participating. Ship modeling is essentially an exercise in the pursuit of excellence.

S'il n'y avait pas la popularité des kits, ce forum n'existerait probablement pas et ne vous donnerait pas de plateforme pour parler de conneries élitistes. Votre arrogance est hors norme.

If it weren't for the popularity of kits, this forum probably wouldn't exist and wouldn't give you a platform to talk about elitist bullshit. Your arrogance is out of the ordinary.

Sorry for bad english

 

[Jimsky]

If it weren't for the popularity of kits, this forum probably wouldn't exist and wouldn't give you a platform to talk about elitist bullshit. Your arrogance is out of the ordinary.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Your passion is clear, and I appreciate your honesty, especially knowing English isn’t your first language. That said, I’d like to clarify one thing: Ships of Scale doesn't exist because of kits or/and scratch models, it exists because people from around the world, with different experiences and perspectives, come here to share, learn, and enjoy model shipbuilding in all its forms. Kits certainly play a role, but they’re only one part of the picture. What really keeps this place alive is the people, not just the products.

Let’s try to keep the conversation open and welcoming, without reducing it to who's “right” or “wrong.” We’re all here because we love the craft, even if we take different paths to get there.

Merci d’avoir partagé ton point de vue — ta passion est évidente, et j’apprécie ta franchise, surtout sachant que l’anglais n’est pas ta langue maternelle. Cela dit, je voudrais clarifier une chose : Ships of Scale n’existe pas à cause des kits, mais parce que des personnes du monde entier, avec des expériences et des perspectives différentes, viennent ici pour partager, apprendre et apprécier la construction de maquettes de navires sous toutes ses formes. Les kits jouent sans doute un rôle important, mais ce n’est qu’une partie de l’histoire. Ce qui fait vraiment vivre ce forum, ce sont les gens — pas seulement les produits.

Essayons de garder une discussion ouverte et accueillante, sans chercher à déterminer qui a “raison” ou “tort.” Nous sommes tous ici parce que nous aimons cet art, même si nous suivons chacun un chemin différent pour y arriver.

 

[NMBROOK]

When this topic came up two things came to mind;

Time has been well covered, the more years to invest in the hobby, the longer you have to return the investment in tooling. I know you can build miniature models with modest tools but in the main, the larger models need some facilities to cut timber.Dimensioned lumber will rocket your budget

The second aspect not mentioned is space. Whilst this is not directly related to cost, it does impact one’s choices. Someone living in an apartment or condo may not only have space constraints but also the fear of noise pollution for other residents.
I spent various periods of my life as a kitchen table modeller and am fortunate now to have a large garage as my workshop.Ironically, I quite often do the less messy jobs on the kitchen table so I am not a social recluse. There is only myself, my wife and two small dogs in our house so it doesn’t cause any issues

 

[Steef66]

When this topic came up two things came to mind;

Time has been well covered, the more years to invest in the hobby, the longer you have to return the investment in tooling. I know you can build miniature models with modest tools but in the main, the larger models need some facilities to cut timber.Dimensioned lumber will rocket your budget

The second aspect not mentioned is space. Whilst this is not directly related to cost, it does impact one’s choices. Someone living in an apartment or condo may not only have space constraints but also the fear of noise pollution for other residents.
I spent various periods of my life as a kitchen table modeller and am fortunate now to have a large garage as my workshop.Ironically, I quite often do the less messy jobs on the kitchen table so I am not a social recluse. There is only myself, my wife and two small dogs in our house so it doesn’t cause any issues

I live in a apartment, it's true about the noise. Lucky I have a lot of woodstrips in my stock. But cutting them out of wood produce a lot of noise during a long time. Lucky I found a shop in Germany who sells woodstrips for a reasonable price. Next to that I still cut a lot of old furniture to usefull pieces of wood.

 

[Rob. T.]

When this topic came up two things came to mind;

Time has been well covered, the more years to invest in the hobby, the longer you have to return the investment in tooling. I know you can build miniature models with modest tools but in the main, the larger models need some facilities to cut timber.Dimensioned lumber will rocket your budget.

When you say "Facilities to cut Timber" did you mean from Scratch ?
It just got me thinking that you were talking about very large pieces of wood? Even though I only have a kitchen table now to use I can cut my KIT timber just using a couple of Razor saws which is easily done on a kitchen table with the aid of a cutting mat and a mitre gauge also using Sanders and dremels isn't a problem as even though I only have a kitchen table I am in a house with no real neighbour issues.

 

[NMBROOK]

When you say "Facilities to cut Timber" did you mean from Scratch ?
It just got me thinking that you were talking about very large pieces of wood? Even though I only have a kitchen table now to use I can cut my KIT timber just using a couple of Razor saws which is easily done on a kitchen table with the aid of a cutting mat and a mitre gauge also using Sanders and dremels isn't a problem as even though I only have a kitchen table I am in a house with no real neighbour issues.

I mean to cut boards down to planking dimensions.Typical requirement would be a tablesaw and possibly a bandsaw to achieve the required crosssection
The bigger the piece of timber you buy the cheaper the cost but this is still significant as you loose a lot of wood in the width of your cuts.
I use the dremel and the MF70 mill in the house but my FET saw is far too messy and noisy for the house. My bandsaw is FAR quieter but too big for the kitchen table

 

[Rob. T.]

I mean to cut boards down to planking dimensions.Typical requirement would be a tablesaw and possibly a bandsaw to achieve the required crosssection
The bigger the piece of timber you buy the cheaper the cost but this is still significant as you loose a lot of wood in the width of your cuts.
I use the dremel and the MF70 mill in the house but my FET saw is far too messy and noisy for the house. My bandsaw is FAR quieter but too big for the kitchen table

OK thanks, do you not have any shop or supplier that has ready made planking already cut to dimensions or are these not within the scope of your Scratch build?
Only asking as I usually use Cornwall Model Boats here in the UKB for any planking I wish to buy aftermarket and tbh it is very reasonably priced. The Heller Soleil Royal which I am building just now, I gave her all wooden decks and masts. If I remember correctly I had to buy 80 X 1metre lengths of 0.5mm X 3mm limewood for the decking alone but this only cost about £33 including postage.
For say normal Hull planking Limewood
2mm X 5mm 1 metre lengths X 80 of these would only be £44 atm as each strip is priced at £0.55 per metre length.
Of course all dependent on which wood you want to use for planking, but for an out lay so little against table saws time and effort ?? Cornwall Model Boats cater for a lot of timber and in this respect they have 14 different varieties to choose from, sorry for going off on a tangent slightly regards to Kit v Scratch.
Each to their own though.

Stripwood

a selection of wood stripwood, maple, lime. mahagony, maple, dibetoua and walnut. Speciality Timber from Cornwall model boats

www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk

 

[Steef66]

OK thanks, do you not have any shop or supplier that has ready made planking already cut to dimensions or are these not within the scope of your Scratch build?
Only asking as I usually use Cornwall Model Boats here in the UKB for any planking I wish to buy aftermarket and tbh it is very reasonably priced. The Heller Soleil Royal which I am building just now, I gave her all wooden decks and masts. If I remember correctly I had to buy 80 X 1metre lengths of 0.5mm X 3mm limewood for the decking alone but this only cost about £33 including postage.
For say normal Hull planking Limewood
2mm X 5mm 1 metre lengths X 80 of these would only be £44 atm as each strip is priced at £0.55 per metre length.
Of course all dependent on which wood you want to use for planking, but for an out lay so little against table saws time and effort ?? Cornwall Model Boats cater for a lot of timber and in this respect they have 14 different varieties to choose from, sorry for going off on a tangent slightly regards to Kit v Scratch.
Each to their own though.

Stripwood

a selection of wood stripwood, maple, lime. mahagony, maple, dibetoua and walnut. Speciality Timber from Cornwall model boats

www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk

I ordered there before the UK left Europe. Now you have to pay a lot of taxes. Jimbo in Germany is also a very cheap supplier for Europe. And he got everything you need.

Zum Shop

Da es anscheinend zu Problem kommt beim Bestellen, bitte dann einfach formlos per Mail bestellen. post@modellbau-leisten.de Wir arbeiten an der Lösung, IT kann nicht nur Segen sein.... Eine Hilfe könnte sein den Browser Updaten.Danke.

modellbau-holz.jimdoweb.com

 

[NMBROOK]

OK thanks, do you not have any shop or supplier that has ready made planking already cut to dimensions or are these not within the scope of your Scratch build?
Only asking as I usually use Cornwall Model Boats here in the UKB for any planking I wish to buy aftermarket and tbh it is very reasonably priced. The Heller Soleil Royal which I am building just now, I gave her all wooden decks and masts. If I remember correctly I had to buy 80 X 1metre lengths of 0.5mm X 3mm limewood for the decking alone but this only cost about £33 including postage.
For say normal Hull planking Limewood
2mm X 5mm 1 metre lengths X 80 of these would only be £44 atm as each strip is priced at £0.55 per metre length.
Of course all dependent on which wood you want to use for planking, but for an out lay so little against table saws time and effort ?? Cornwall Model Boats cater for a lot of timber and in this respect they have 14 different varieties to choose from, sorry for going off on a tangent slightly regards to Kit v Scratch.
Each to their own though.

Stripwood

a selection of wood stripwood, maple, lime. mahagony, maple, dibetoua and walnut. Speciality Timber from Cornwall model boats

www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk

I order lots of things from CMB including timber however some jobs are in Pear or Boxwood so I cut larger, thicker boards down