Help Identifying some standing rigging

[icecreamviking]

attached is a view of the foremast of L'Hermione, and the rigging in question are the two cords running parallel directly down the rear of the mast, which are lashed together (I hesitate to say Rattled down because I'm not certain that's the purpose of joining them). I'm fairly certain they are standing rigging.

I'm not sure but I think these are the Main-topmast stay and preventer stay? If anyone could help me confirm or deny that hunch I'd be obliged. and furthermore, If you know why they are joined in this fashion I'd also be curious to know that.

 

[AllanKP69]

Just a guess but they don't look like stays, but the set looks almost like a rope ladder. Then again, with shrouds, what would be the purpose? If they are main topmast stay and main topmast preventer stay they would be secured on the fore side at the top of the main topmast and run down and forward to the aft side of the upper area of the foremast near the foretop. The set up there had variations from blocks to deadeyes. I am as curious as you, so hope someone has an answer.
Allan

 

[Frank48]

attached is a view of the foremast of L'Hermione, and the rigging in question are the two cords running parallel directly down the rear of the mast, which are lashed together (I hesitate to say Rattled down because I'm not certain that's the purpose of joining them). I'm fairly certain they are standing rigging.

I'm not sure but I think these are the Main-topmast stay and preventer stay? If anyone could help me confirm or deny that hunch I'd be obliged. and furthermore, If you know why they are joined in this fashion I'd also be curious to know that.

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Good morning, since this is a fake replica of the ship, that ladder made of ropes is nothing more than a fake. Frank

 

[Roger Pellett]

I agree with Frank. The Iron Men that sailed the wooden ships of the past are far and few between today. Plus, replicas must meet safety laws that did not exist when the original ships sailed. Therefore they must include details to accommodate modern times.

I’m not an expert on Eighteenth Century rigging and especially not French rigging, but what you show is a rope ladder that I suspect did not exist on the original vessel.

I am of the opinion that when you come across a detail that you’re unsure of it’s better to leave it off of the model than to include it.

Roger

 

[icecreamviking]

Alright, I've just finished a marathon of studying images of the ship being constructed, and compared observations with some written sources (Primarily Jean Boudriot's 74 gun ship treatise) and these ropes are in fact the Maintop stay and its preventer. they both reeve through blocks (the preventer stay to one secured below the hounds of the mast, just under the fighting top. the primary stay to one above the fighting top) and then proceed down the aft of the mast and attach to hooks in the deck. they are not tied together in every image I have, especially during the initial rigging of the ship their identity is far clearer

to be clear I never suspected this was a ladder, I was just trying to suss out if I was right about which pieces of rigging these were, since there are a number of belays at the base of the foremast and I have a few contradictory diagrams about which is which (the ANCRE monogram for ship suggests there were guidelines and common practice but they were adhered to very unevenly by different crews). the first clue is that the two vertical components are different gauges of rope which would make no sense (even if one were making a random ladder for no reason) however it is exactly consistent with this being a stay and preventer. and the second being that the "rattling" (not the appropriate term) isn't executed the way it is one the shrouds, but is a series of hitches that are done in two's one each side and alternate back and forth to form the "steps", meaning the entire system is a continuous cord from top to bottom.

there is disagreement on why exactly the stays are connected thus, but the likely explanation is that it prevents a loose cord from snaring itself in the other rigging in the event that either stay breaks. in that event it'd be held in place by it's counterpart. I cannot recall where I first read that explanation, if anyone else has read something similar i'd be interested to hear about it.

 

[paul ron]

id like to see where they start above? then we can figure out its function.

 

[maywiyj]

Maybe runner pendants? Used to hoist topmast, yards or other heavy things into the rigging. They are usually the first thing on the masthead, before the shrouds or stays. Not sure why they appear to be "rattled" though.

 

[El Capi]

attached is a view of the foremast of L'Hermione, and the rigging in question are the two cords running parallel directly down the rear of the mast, which are lashed together (I hesitate to say Rattled down because I'm not certain that's the purpose of joining them). I'm fairly certain they are standing rigging.

I'm not sure but I think these are the Main-topmast stay and preventer stay? If anyone could help me confirm or deny that hunch I'd be obliged. and furthermore, If you know why they are joined in this fashion I'd also be curious to know that.

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You are completely right. I have it here on my computer for the total Standing riggen. Where to begin to the end. I am an Old Timer, and have not built in the last 15 Years. Health and space problems let me down. On the other hand, I have more than 700 GM of images, going from A TO Z. The material is free to anybody - here or more private over my E-Mails: peandersen1098@gmail.com or a new one - DryadenP531dk@outlok.com
The Standing Riggen was published 2 years ago in the Danish Billing Boat page. I have just a few more things to it. If SOS is interesting, I can publish ii el CAPI /it is in a months 60 Years, when I joined the Navy

 

[icecreamviking]

You are completely right. I have it here on my computer for the total Standing riggen. Where to begin to the end. I am an Old Timer, and have not built in the last 15 Years. Health and space problems let me down. On the other hand, I have more than 700 GM of images, going from A TO Z. The material is free to anybody - here or more private over my E-Mails: peandersen1098@gmail.com or a new one - DryadenP531dk@outlok.com
The Standing Riggen was published 2 years ago in the Danish Billing Boat page. I have just a few more things to it. If SOS is interesting, I can publish ii el CAPI /it is in a months 60 Years, when I joined the Navy

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I sympathize with space problems! I myself model on the computer for that reason (and also it's far cheaper!). I'll reach out to you via email! I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

 

[icecreamviking]

Maybe runner pendants? Used to hoist topmast, yards or other heavy things into the rigging. They are usually the first thing on the masthead, before the shrouds or stays. Not sure why they appear to be "rattled" though.

that was also a suspicion I had, I found recently though that the tackle pendants are lashed to the shrouds when not in use and don't run down near the fife rail unless they are in active use. thanks for the suggestion, though!

 

[Frank48]

that was also a suspicion I had, I found recently though that the tackle pendants are lashed to the shrouds when not in use and don't run down near the fife rail unless they are in active use. thanks for the suggestion, though!

Hi, could you post some pictures of the shrouds? Thanks in advance for your response. Frank

 

[icecreamviking]

Hi, could you post some pictures of the shrouds? Thanks in advance for your response. Frank

I can! I have a few thousand photos I've scraped from dozens of sources. I don't have a single "smoking gun" photo to reinforce my assessment here, but I have a few that a more clear than others. I was, by the way, a bit mistaken about the tackle pendants being lashed to the shrouds. I was working off a quote from Jean Boudriot's 74 gun ship treatise, which says they are typically "stored inboard of the shrouds". I'm not sure how I misconstrued that as having anything to do with lashing. but I have this nice pair of photos which capture both a clear view of a descending tackle pendant *and* (albeit rather occluded) the main top preventer stay. I'll attach them twice below, each once unedited, and once with my highlights.

you can see the tackle pendant fitted to a triple block, which is consistent with every description I've found of them on a ship of this size, and to the right you can see the considerably less substantial preventer stay reeving through a single block, proceeding down and abaft the foremast, and you can also see the turns of the "rattling" (or whatever that is) along it.

If you're curious why I seem fixated on the replica (which I'll admit, is not 100% accurate) Ill say I'm a relative newcomer to studying this material, and it's a lot to take in. seeing these complex arrangement in full scale really helps me. and while the replica deviates in many small particulars, it's usually close enough to help me make sense of what I'm reading about from primary sources. and I'm also curious about *why* it deviates from traditional rigging. the people who built this ship were certainly as passionate as anyone here, I'd wager, so I'm curious about what the rationale behind the changes is.

 

[paul ron]

it boggles the mind how much rigging it up there... and a good part of it is omitted on our models.

when the uscg eagle was in nyc i had the oportunity to see what a fully dressed ship looks like. yes the ropes n fittings were millitary neat as expected, but the amount of lines coming down was mind blowing. i doubt we could actually fit it to scale at 1:96... maybe even at 1/4" get a good part but not all.

 

[icecreamviking]

it boggles the mind how much rigging it up there... and a good part of it is omitted on our models.

when the uscg eagle was in nyc i had the oportunity to see what a fully dressed ship looks like. yes the ropes n fittings were millitary neat as expected, but the amount of lines coming down was mind blowing. i doubt we could actually fit it to scale at 1:96... maybe even at 1/4" get a good part but not all.

I'm modeling digitally so I can include about as much detail as I care to. But I predict i won't actually be able to display all the cordage at once. Models I do for my day job don't typically exceed 1-2 million polygons. My Ship is already 16.5 million, 90% of that is rope and I haven't even finished the standing rigging!

 

[paul ron]

digitally modeling?... virtual models.

cadd models can be done in any scale so yes including the smallest details is no problem. but put that to scale in real world construction, your details would be lost.

what kind of models do you design at the day job?

 

[icecreamviking]

digitally modeling?... virtual models.

cadd models can be done in any scale so yes including the smallest details is no problem. but put that to scale in real world construction, your details would be lost.

what kind of models do you design at the day job?

my day job is medical animations, a lot of work with medical devices (various surgical instruments, the like) and depictions of very small structures inside the body.

yes it does frustrate me that I'll probably never have a tangible version of the work I'm doing, but I don't have much space to work on a physical model (one day perhaps, If I own a home I'll go wild and build a huge one in my garage). And having an adjustable digital model is a useful reference tool for making drawings and paintings as well. I can put a virtual camera in any spot on the ship.

 

[Rob444]

I can! I have a few thousand photos I've scraped from dozens of sources. I don't have a single "smoking gun" photo to reinforce my assessment here, but I have a few that a more clear than others. I was, by the way, a bit mistaken about the tackle pendants being lashed to the shrouds. I was working off a quote from Jean Boudriot's 74 gun ship treatise, which says they are typically "stored inboard of the shrouds". I'm not sure how I misconstrued that as having anything to do with lashing. but I have this nice pair of photos which capture both a clear view of a descending tackle pendant *and* (albeit rather occluded) the main top preventer stay. I'll attach them twice below, each once unedited, and once with my highlights.

you can see the tackle pendant fitted to a triple block, which is consistent with every description I've found of them on a ship of this size, and to the right you can see the considerably less substantial preventer stay reeving through a single block, proceeding down and abaft the foremast, and you can also see the turns of the "rattling" (or whatever that is) along it.

If you're curious why I seem fixated on the replica (which I'll admit, is not 100% accurate) Ill say I'm a relative newcomer to studying this material, and it's a lot to take in. seeing these complex arrangement in full scale really helps me. and while the replica deviates in many small particulars, it's usually close enough to help me make sense of what I'm reading about from primary sources. and I'm also curious about *why* it deviates from traditional rigging. the people who built this ship were certainly as passionate as anyone here, I'd wager, so I'm curious about what the rationale behind the changes is.

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I am wondering of the second set of lines you outlined is part of the jig tackle used for the Halyards of the royal and topgallant halyards.



like this on my model Constitution cross section.



Rob

 

[Frank48]

I can! I have a few thousand photos I've scraped from dozens of sources. I don't have a single "smoking gun" photo to reinforce my assessment here, but I have a few that a more clear than others. I was, by the way, a bit mistaken about the tackle pendants being lashed to the shrouds. I was working off a quote from Jean Boudriot's 74 gun ship treatise, which says they are typically "stored inboard of the shrouds". I'm not sure how I misconstrued that as having anything to do with lashing. but I have this nice pair of photos which capture both a clear view of a descending tackle pendant *and* (albeit rather occluded) the main top preventer stay. I'll attach them twice below, each once unedited, and once with my highlights.

you can see the tackle pendant fitted to a triple block, which is consistent with every description I've found of them on a ship of this size, and to the right you can see the considerably less substantial preventer stay reeving through a single block, proceeding down and abaft the foremast, and you can also see the turns of the "rattling" (or whatever that is) along it.

If you're curious why I seem fixated on the replica (which I'll admit, is not 100% accurate) Ill say I'm a relative newcomer to studying this material, and it's a lot to take in. seeing these complex arrangement in full scale really helps me. and while the replica deviates in many small particulars, it's usually close enough to help me make sense of what I'm reading about from primary sources. and I'm also curious about *why* it deviates from traditional rigging. the people who built this ship were certainly as passionate as anyone here, I'd wager, so I'm curious about what the rationale behind the changes is.

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Hi, thanks for the photos and for your help. As I mentioned earlier, that’s a detail found only on that particular replica ship. I haven’t found any mention of that detail in the books I have. Frank

 

[icecreamviking]

I am wondering of the second set of lines you outlined is part of the jig tackle used for the Halyards of the royal and topgallant halyards.

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like this on my model Constitution cross section.

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Rob

that's certainly possible. I haven't begun studying the running rigging in detail yet, I'm trying to be patient and lay out all the rigging in the order it would be set up when building the ship. So I haven't taken enough of a look at the various halyards to say for certain that I'm not mistaking them for tackle pendants. here is another angle of those same elements, this is taken from a video of the upper masts being raised into position. you can see the two triple blocks hanging in the same place as my highlighted photo.

 

[icecreamviking]

Hi, thanks for the photos and for your help. As I mentioned earlier, that’s a detail found only on that particular replica ship. I haven’t found any mention of that detail in the books I have. Frank

thanks for your help as well! I've become somewhat fixated on this small detail, I haven't found a match for it, but I've found something very similar.

I was playing a videogame set on a East Indiamen, and noticed that it's Mainstay was cross tied in the same fashion. I found out the the ship in the game was loosely based on the HMS Leopard (very loosely based, the Leopard being a 50 gun 4th rate) and I began searching for models of the Leopard itself to see if that is where the game artist got the idea to do this. and I'll be damned, there are models of the Leopard that exhibit the joined Stays! here is a picture from the game followed by a model of the reference ship