3D Printing v. Wood Carving

very good post Jim i think you defined it quite well.

so the final answer is yes 3D printing is considered part of the artistic work of model ship building. But only if you the builder created the print and not something you bought.

Which is questionable because if you scratch built a big % of the model and added someones elses piece what is it a kit or an original scratch piece of work?
 
AND the arguments that can be made: "Why are you building from a KIT? Why aren't you strictly building from scratch?" I had a scratch builder ask that exact question at a meeting of modellers - indicating that kits were EASY with pre-printed parts, castings and etchings. To each his own IMHO....
 
Philski said:
AND the arguments that can be made: "Why are you building from a KIT? Why aren't you strictly building from scratch?" I had a scratch builder ask that exact question at a meeting of modellers - indicating that kits were EASY with pre-printed parts, castings and etchings. To each his own IMH
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Good evening, sorry , but photoengraving, drill, milling machine,planer,grinder and various castings are used, why is there the problem of CNC and 3D printer? How many accessories are used and not made by the modeler?But be careful, these two processes both CNC and printer3D must be done by the modeler who builds his own model and not by others.Frank
 
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Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
so the final answer is yes 3D printing is considered part of the artistic work of model ship building. But only if you the builder created the print and not something you bought.
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Thank you, Dave.
Depending on how you treat your model build, it should guide you on what to use. If you are building your model for further participating in competitions, then your work is obeyed by the particular competition rules. For example, NAVIGA has different classes where that define how much % scratch-built versus aftermarket parts it is allowed for a particular class. But if you building as your hobby, do you really care as long as you are happy with the results? I don't!!! I build models as per my standards, and my acceptance level and budget. 3D printing, CNC carving, and aftermarket PE parts are all welcomed to Jim's shipyard. What should I do if I cannot turn the brass cannons? I am not a machinist not have the equipment. I buy them! Who can throw the stone at me?
 
Sgt_Bill said:
Does incorporating 3d printing take away from the art value of a scratch built model?
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It is a very intriguing question, but the answers to this will be widely spread because everyone has their own interpretation of this hobby.

The "art value" will therefore differ depending on who and with what eyes it is looked at.

An outsider to the hobby will above all look at the end result. Let us be honest, mastering the art of manual carving is not given to all of us. The end result of high quality 3d printing will therefore generally(!) exceed the quality of manual carvings. To the outsider the art value rating will likely be higher then.

However sInce the question on this forum is answered not by outsiders but by like-minded people sharing the hobby of Ships of Scale the outcome will say more over how we individually interprate our hobby. How like-minded are we actually?

Luckily we do not have to be like-minded in every detail and we should and mostly do appreciate an approach different to our own.
So opposed to those who prioritize making every part themselves manually, wooden/plastic or otherwise, there are those who have integrated 3d engineering in our hobby, either 3d printing or cnc engraving. Both with a learning curve. Different but not unlike getting experienced in manual carving.
Hats of to those who have mastered the skill of manual carving and likewise to those who have the skill of producing wonderful results with 3d engineering.
Luckily there are masters in 3d engineering who sell high quality parts for those that either have too limited skills (please note - limited in the eyes of themselves!), no interest or no equipment for 3d engineering or simply not enough time.

Why have I answered this question so extensively? Because I have had the same sort of question on my mind for some time.

I would prefer to make everything myself manually and then the question automatically arises where do you draw the line? From what point would I call it cheating to myself or would somebody else look down on it as devaluating the art value of the model? That question can even go so far back to the point of not having made the plans/drawings yourself. Cheating? A kit? Buying guns, blocks, cleats, nails or rope? 3d engineering?
I am scratch building, but as per the drawings of someone else. It is my first build following the example of someone else. Learning on the way and also picking up ideas from others on this forum. I will try making everything myself but am sure I will encounter my limits on the way. If my manual skills fail at some point and the result of what I can make does devaluate the art level/quality standard of the model to my opinion, I also might reside to other possibilities.

I am sorry for the extensive answer I have given.
In short, does incorporating 3d printing take away from the art value of a scratch built model? No, unless you look upon it as devaluating yourself.
 
Herman said:
It is a very intriguing question, but the answers to this will be widely spread because everyone has their own interpretation of this hobby.

The "art value" will therefore differ depending on who and with what eyes it is looked at.

An outsider to the hobby will above all look at the end result. Let us be honest, mastering the art of manual carving is not given to all of us. The end result of high quality 3d printing will therefore generally(!) exceed the quality of manual carvings. To the outsider the art value rating will likely be higher then.

However sInce the question on this forum is answered not by outsiders but by like-minded people sharing the hobby of Ships of Scale the outcome will say more over how we individually interprate our hobby. How like-minded are we actually?

Luckily we do not have to be like-minded in every detail and we should and mostly do appreciate an approach different to our own.
So opposed to those who prioritize making every part themselves manually, wooden/plastic or otherwise, there are those who have integrated 3d engineering in our hobby, either 3d printing or cnc engraving. Both with a learning curve. Different but not unlike getting experienced in manual carving.
Hats of to those who have mastered the skill of manual carving and likewise to those who have the skill of producing wonderful results with 3d engineering.
Luckily there are masters in 3d engineering who sell high quality parts for those that either have too limited skills (please note - limited in the eyes of themselves!), no interest or no equipment for 3d engineering or simply not enough time.

Why have I answered this question so extensively? Because I have had the same sort of question on my mind for some time.

I would prefer to make everything myself manually and then the question automatically arises where do you draw the line? From what point would I call it cheating to myself or would somebody else look down on it as devaluating the art value of the model? That question can even go so far back to the point of not having made the plans/drawings yourself. Cheating? A kit? Buying guns, blocks, cleats, nails or rope? 3d engineering?
I am scratch building, but as per the drawings of someone else. It is my first build following the example of someone else. Learning on the way and also picking up ideas from others on this forum. I will try making everything myself but am sure I will encounter my limits on the way. If my manual skills fail at some point and the result of what I can make does devaluate the art level/quality standard of the model to my opinion, I also might reside to other possibilities.

I am sorry for the extensive answer I have given.
In short, does incorporating 3d printing take away from the art value of a scratch built model? No, unless you look upon it as devaluating yourself.
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Good evening, Hi Herman, for the admiralty (from scratch) the whole model absolutely not , for other categories some detail can also be accepted, I share Your thought
Good evening, everyone, I post the regulations " Naviga" 2020 edition CATEGORY "C". Just to have some limitations.Frank
 

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Corsair said:
So, those of you that feel that 3D printing is "cheating", how is it any different than building a kit that uses molded metal parts?
At the same time, you can get to the point where you print the entire ship, is that then really building a wooden ship model?
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Odds are pretty good that the scratchiest scratch builder used plans they did not draw, and maybe even got in digital format, which they then printed, or had printed on an electronic device. Oh the horror!
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
very good post Jim i think you defined it quite well.

so the final answer is yes 3D printing is considered part of the artistic work of model ship building. But only if you the builder created the print and not something you bought.

Which is questionable because if you scratch built a big % of the model and added someones elses piece what is it a kit or an original scratch piece of work?
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This is quite good question as I have a example that fits 100%. My build log to be exact. I choose to buy carvings and ship's hull , because I knew I don't have skills, time or knowlage to make it from 0. I also knew there will never be such kit. So I'm sitting on a fence it's not "tru" scratch build and neither it's a kit. Why it's not a pure scratch build I don't think I need to elaborate, maybe why it's not a kit would be more interesting.

Firstly if I didn't buy a pile of machines and wood this 3d print hull would be only a plastic shell worth less then a plastic kit.
Secondly I needed to lern how to read plans and prepare lots of diffrent wood strips and wood pieces.(For a first wooden ship model)
In standard kit everything is preparded to pop up from laser cut board. Here I had to spend a lot of time just to learn the machine to get acceptable results. In kit you get a nice instrution with step by step, mabe with some mistakes which are alread solved on forum by othe builders of ths same ship. Here I needed to think what I must make first, why, how and if I'm not making it in wrong order and baisicly blocking myself a access to thing I shuld make earlier.I didn't even start making more complicated elements that impact each other which in kits are either simplified or already made. And If I don't make them right like on plans there will be people who will point out I made a mistake that downgrades overall quality of whole build and I can't hide behind of shield "oh it's only kit I'll do it better nex time"

Despite all that It's very fun process with ups and downs and a high learning curve. Would I go back to "normal" kits? Hell no. Even tho I have a ton of things to learn I don't think I would like to go back.

So am I(and other people who BUY 3d parts) cheating? To cheat there must be competition with a prize. How can I cheat myself, I choose such way of bulding a model and, if somebody wants to feel better and think it's cheating, fine. But question to you are all scratch builds master level? Maybe some scratch builds aren't superior to any kit as they're made with passion, but overall quality doesen't represent that.

I've been in very similar discussion before and it ended at the point who is "the truest" modeler, where neither side could convince the other.So let's better choose whatever tools we want to achieve effect we want while having fun in our hobby
 
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Philski said:
AND the arguments that can be made: "Why are you building from a KIT? Why aren't you strictly building from scratch?" I had a scratch builder ask that exact question at a meeting of modellers - indicating that kits were EASY with pre-printed parts, castings and etchings. To each his own IMHO....
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IMHO kits are easy/ier, but at the same time for some people I'm building a kit and scratch building. So where am I?ROTF
 
Frank48 said:
Good evening, Hi Herman, for the admiralty (from scratch) the whole model absolutely not , for other categories some detail can also be accepted, I share Your thought
Good evening, everyone, I post the regulations " Naviga" 2020 edition CATEGORY "C". Just to have some limitations.Frank
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Hi Frank.
Thank you for posting the Naviga regulations. That is a again an other approach to our hobby. If you build according to these rules then you would have to consider how far you can deviate from manual scratch building. That can either be motivating to seek the limitations of your abilities or be experienced as a limitation to what is allowed.
I have no intention to enter a competition so I had really not given it a thought. I just build for the joy of it.
 
WojtasS said:
So am I(and other people who BUY 3d parts) cheating? To cheat there must be competition with a prize. How can I cheat myself, I choose such way of bulding a model and, if somebody wants to feel better and think it's cheating, fine. But question to you are all scratch builds master level? Maybe some scratch builds aren't superior to any kit as they're made with passion, but overall quality doesen't represent that.
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Why would anyone on Earth call cheating when buying 3D, PE, or CNC parts? Why would a scratch builder be considered better or a skillet modeler? I have many examples where kits of plastic or wood (as the base) can yield an excellent model when you add scratch and/or aftermarket parts! Contrary, I've seen models made from scratch look like souvenirs. I don't like to divide modelers as masters and the rest of us. I think we are losing the most important factor of our hobby - fun! If you decide your hull to be Printed 3D, it is your decision, and I will respect it! I will never call it cheating, you like it and that's the only matters!!!
WojtasS said:
IMHO kits are easy/ier, but at the same time for some people I'm building a kit and scratch building. So where am I?ROTF
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...you are there where you want to be! It is not necessary to classify your skills and methods of building. You are building ship models, the way you able\want! Isn't it enough to be happy??? :)
 
I am new to wooden modeling but have spent years in plastic modeling. There is scratch building there also. My feeling is that it’s your model and you do as you wish. I would love to have the knowledge base to do CAD-CAM and 3 D printing as much as I would love to have the ability to do beautiful carving.

And how do you define scratch building? Chop down trees cut and season the wood? Smelt your own metal?

It is a hobby not a contest! Have fun, teach others your skills! Enjoy!
 
Rob444 said:
I am new to wooden modeling but have spent years in plastic modeling. There is scratch building there also. My feeling is that it’s your model and you do as you wish. I would love to have the knowledge base to do CAD-CAM and 3 D printing as much as I would love to have the ability to do beautiful carving.

And how do you define scratch building? Chop down trees cut and season the wood? Smelt your own metal?

It is a hobby not a contest! Have fun, teach others your skills! Enjoy!
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Well said.
 
Just to add another $0.02 to the kitty, I'll venture that by definition one cannot cheat at a hobby. Being as it is time spent doing something you enjoy, there is only one person qualified to tell you how it must be done. I do more plastic armor modelling than wooden ship modeling and I use a variety of materials--styrene, resin, photo-etch metal, castings, wood--whatever it takes to achieve the effect I want. Same is true with 'wooden' ship building: you're the only person how can decide whether using a particular technique or material detracts from your own sense of accomplishment or not. Might be different if you are working under commission to create something for someone else, in which case you have to meet the client's expectations, but now it's no longer a hobby, per se.

I'd also go so far as to say that comparing 3D printed items to hand-carved items is too much of an apples and oranges comparison. Ask rather whether 3D printed items are any different from CNC carved items--or even laser/router cut parts for that matter. The execution is exactly the same; only the material is different. Therein, I think, lies the rub of the whole discussion. Does the introduction of non-traditional materials into an otherwise traditional construction in some way detract from the overall appeal? It's all in the eye of the beholder I suppose. I imagine there must have been similar arguments raging when cast white metal fittings where first introduced.
 
AHOY!

I see that history of the modelling made circle again. ;)

I remember - about 20 years ago SZKUTNIK TEAM began to design first accessories cut with the laser to cardboard models (frames to hull, life buoys, steering wheels, gratings etc.) Then also on the modeler forums were VERY HOT discussions about „traditional modelling”. Detal cuts with laser? What is this? Who gave the permission to this? Simple models for idiots. The profanation of the modelling. Fu… off.

Today nobody asks producers of wooden models (Amati, CAF, Modelship Dockyard) why in kits they use laser cut elements? Today this is the standard.

Similar history was when to plastic models to add photo-etched elements. ;)

Today is the question 3D Printing or wood carving. ?????????

During 20 years nobody for this will ask. Also this will be a standard. The print 3D will be more and more better and more and more cheaper. We will not stop scientific and technological progress. Whether we like it or not he is. In the shipbuilding modelling also.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT MODELING SHOULD ALWAYS BE FUN. :D:D:D

All modelers who feel good in models with 3D printed elements. Everyone who still feel FUN.
Please contact with SZKUTNIK TEAM. We cordially invite you :D
 
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Rob444 said

And how do you define scratch building? Chop down trees cut and season the wood? Smelt your own metal?

now there is some truth in that, way back at a NRG conference members were sitting around discussing this very subject. Robert Bruckshaw told the story when he moved into his house he planted apple trees. Years later a storm took out one of the trees so he went out and harvested the wood, dried it and used it in his models. So talk about scratch building Bob not only planted the tree but harvested the wood and used it in model building. needless to say he won the scratch build award
 
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i agree with Jimshy i have seen top of the line modeling of kits and very poor scratch building so there is no way to use scratch vs kit as a value of craftsmanship.

i do think we have come full circle on 3D printing. laser cutting CNC plastic, wood or whatever is all part of the artistic process and totally acceptable.

Lets take a left turn on the subject, i see repeated in the posts to have fun with the build, do it your way, you can't pleaes everyone so might as well please yourself. it's a hobby and not a competition

this came up in a topic awhile back and became to hot to handle so it was shut down. It turned personal rather than a discussion of the topic.
Yes this is just a hobby but does it matter doing thing your way?

i say yes it matters because if you are in your shop doing your thing sure anything goes because it doe not matter to anyone but you.

but

we are now a community of builders available to everyone around the world and that carries a responsibility

how you wonder?

builders who get stuck on a build will turn to Ships of Scale looking for answers or what other builders have done.

how to plank a hull and you find builds done wrong or sloppy, kits built wrong, hatch coaming with 45 degree corners when they should overlap, misinformation

no one has written a set of rules or a manifesto of the aims, rules, or policies for building model ship, it is sort of a free for all and let the builder beware on one end and on the other the traditional, historical accuracy, do's and don't. someplace in between is the happy spot.

this is a hobby that goes from built it willy nilly anyway you want to those who will not accept plastic on a wooden model or historically incorrect
 
Jimsky said:
Why would anyone on Earth call cheating when buying 3D, PE, or CNC parts? Why would a scratch builder be considered better or a skillet modeler? I have many examples where kits of plastic or wood (as the base) can yield an excellent model when you add scratch and/or aftermarket parts! Contrary, I've seen models made from scratch look like souvenirs. I don't like to divide modelers as masters and the rest of us. I think we are losing the most important factor of our hobby - fun! If you decide your hull to be Printed 3D, it is your decision, and I will respect it! I will never call it cheating, you like it and that's the only matters!!!

...you are there where you want to be! It is not necessary to classify your skills and methods of building. You are building ship models, the way you able\want! Isn't it enough to be happy??? :)
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I also thought such opionion about buying not making extra parts is song of the past, but some time ago I stumbled on disscusion with person who had such view. It also came with the package:"I'm tru modeler, because I make every part from scratch, kids these days want to everything right now and technology makes making model too easy..." and so on, so on. You couldn't deny him talent, but personality and friendliness.... I won't comment on that.

Dave's comment I quoted just reminded me of that discussion. I agree with you, our hobby should be mostly about having fun not dividing people. What I like here on SOS when sb post a topic with request for help or advice he's not left for a week with non answer. Which is not so obvious in other places on the internet as I seen people who did remarkable models somehow couldn't see a topic from a new user asking for help.

As for me I'm perfectly fine where I'm:)
 
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