Alex R H.M.S. Enterprize Build Log

[GrantTyler]

Hi Grant,
I was just going to look up when the change from wood to metal occurred on the hull and the decks. Thanks for the little push

For the hull, David Steel gives diameters of treenails for bottom planking of a 28 gun ship at 1 3/4" diameter PLUS one bolt in the timber next to each butt and clenched inside - 7/8" diameter He does not name what type of bolt material was used. So, it sounds like there is a combination, at least in the late 18th century. There is no information on the size of the trennals in the Establishments that I could find so I have no idea when metal came into use along with the wooden treenails.

From the contract for Enterprize's sister Aurora 16 July 1776,
All the treenails to be dry seasoned, clear of sap, & converted from timber of the growth of Sussex, or equal in goodness thereto, to be well mooted, not overhauled with an ax in driving, & all to be caulk’d or wedg’d at both ends ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is information on iron work in general, but no mention of copper or iron for securing planking anywhere in the contract. I do not want to assume anything from this, just that there is no mention of it.

Any more information on this would be great to see.

Allan

Hi Allan. Here is what I found in Goodwins’ The construction and fitting of the sailing man of war; Reading this you are correct in that the planking is secured by treenail while the copper bolts seemed to be used below the waterline. Some pics from the book.


Cheers Grant

 

[Kurt Konrath]

I always love the good information that comes out in posts about the how and why things were done a certain way in the old days.

 

[AllanKP69]

Hi Grant, I did see the information in Goodwin, and he shows wooden treenails in the planking. As you wrote he does say copper bolts are used below the waterline, but where? Does he mean for the frames, planking, and/or inboard works? If for the planking do these replace the wooden treenails or would these only be used at the butts as Steel describes. In the end, I would not be surprised to see variations from ship to ship, year to year. Part of the confusion for me is that Goodwin shows sketches of some applications for the bolts, but none of the sketches show them are used for the hull planking. My copy of Goodwin is literally falling apart due to how often I search it for information as it is a fantastic book, but in this case and era if I had to choose between Goodwin 1987 and Steel 1805 I would rely on Steel. I read up on Peter Goodwin a short time ago and he has a really interesting background/experiences that go from being a marine engineer on submarines to author and curator to being the history consultant on the movie Master and Commander. That is a man I would love to meet with over a good bottle of wine and nice dinner.

Allan

 

[richardjjs]

Thanks Jeff. I'm spending a lot of time in preparing the pieces-sanding and fitting, sanding and fitting.., then glueing, and clamping, on top of the glass over the plan. I'm a night owl, usually finish about 1 AM sometimes 2 AM. even the dog is asleep so no interruptions.
Allan, the graphite mixed-in is dark gray to black. I mix it in a small applicator bottle with a flat steel syringe tip. I'm pretty sure one can get PVA glue in black.

Alex

Amazon has all the glue you need - If they are in your country

FWIW, I have always "suspected" the graphite powder may weaken the yellow titebond from test pieces I ran tests on. My end result is using a very porous black art paper between joints. when glued, it is quite thin, and yields a strong joint, IMHO, quite realistic. The big plus..... when hit with glue, both surfaces, just enough to fill any tiny void giving nice finish. When dry, very easy to simply chisel away from wood.View attachment 511662View attachment 511664
That said, for this project, I have finished keel, bow, transom using nothing and joinery seems realistic here as well/ all pieces here where cut scratch from stock.
That said, I have been a lurker here for some time.....great forum and looking forward to following everyones progress on this fine kit.

Tim

Just wondering why the gap at the front of the keel

 

[richardjjs]

FWIW, I have always "suspected" the graphite powder may weaken the yellow titebond from test pieces I ran tests on. My end result is using a very porous black art paper between joints. when glued, it is quite thin, and yields a strong joint, IMHO, quite realistic. The big plus..... when hit with glue, both surfaces, just enough to fill any tiny void giving nice finish. When dry, very easy to simply chisel away from wood.View attachment 511662View attachment 511664
That said, for this project, I have finished keel, bow, transom using nothing and joinery seems realistic here as well/ all pieces here where cut scratch from stock.
That said, I have been a lurker here for some time.....great forum and looking forward to following everyones progress on this fine kit.

Tim

Another question - You say Pourous Black art Paper What is are you talking Black Tissue

 

[TRS7139]

Amazon has all the glue you need - If they are in your country

Just wondering why the gap at the front of the keel

View attachment 524546

Because the bottom was not trimmed yet and completely glued up. the cutwater is still just trial fit.

 

[TRS7139]

Another question - You say Pourous Black art Paper What is are you talking Black Tissue

Not tissue, very loose woven art paper bought at a commercial art supply store, if you hold it up to the light you can almost see through it, when glued it soaks up and compresses.
When you cut strips the gold filaments simply pull out.

Tim

 

[AllanKP69]

the cutwater is still just trial fit.

This is probably a terminology thing or maybe it is not visible in the photo, but there does not appear to be a cutwater. I am guessing the concern is the fit of the false keel and boxing joint of the keel to the gripe. Not an easy fix based on my own failures and do overs in these joints in the past.
Allan

 

[Corsair]

This is probably a terminology thing or maybe it is not visible in the photo, but there does not appear to be a cutwater. I am guessing the concern is the fit of the false keel and boxing joint of the keel to the gripe. Not an easy fix based on my own failures and do overs in these joints in the past.
Allan
View attachment 524657

Yes, there is a cutwater. It's up higher above the gripe at the front edge. But I don't think that is what Tim is referring to. It's probably the Gripe he is talking about. Just a guess on my part though.