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Alex R H.M.S. Enterprize Build Log

AllanKP69 said:
Hi Grant,
I was just going to look up when the change from wood to metal occurred on the hull and the decks. :) Thanks for the little push:)

For the hull, David Steel gives diameters of treenails for bottom planking of a 28 gun ship at 1 3/4" diameter PLUS one bolt in the timber next to each butt and clenched inside - 7/8" diameter He does not name what type of bolt material was used. So, it sounds like there is a combination, at least in the late 18th century. There is no information on the size of the trennals in the Establishments that I could find so I have no idea when metal came into use along with the wooden treenails.

From the contract for Enterprize's sister Aurora 16 July 1776,
All the treenails to be dry seasoned, clear of sap, & converted from timber of the growth of Sussex, or equal in goodness thereto, to be well mooted, not overhauled with an ax in driving, & all to be caulk’d or wedg’d at both ends ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is information on iron work in general, but no mention of copper or iron for securing planking anywhere in the contract. I do not want to assume anything from this, just that there is no mention of it.

Any more information on this would be great to see.

Allan
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Hi Allan. Here is what I found in Goodwins’ The construction and fitting of the sailing man of war; Reading this you are correct in that the planking is secured by treenail while the copper bolts seemed to be used below the waterline. Some pics from the book.
IMG_5473.jpeg
IMG_5474.jpeg
Cheers Grant
 
Hi Grant, I did see the information in Goodwin, and he shows wooden treenails in the planking. As you wrote he does say copper bolts are used below the waterline, but where? Does he mean for the frames, planking, and/or inboard works? If for the planking do these replace the wooden treenails or would these only be used at the butts as Steel describes. In the end, I would not be surprised to see variations from ship to ship, year to year. Part of the confusion for me is that Goodwin shows sketches of some applications for the bolts, but none of the sketches show them are used for the hull planking. My copy of Goodwin is literally falling apart due to how often I search it for information as it is a fantastic book, but in this case and era if I had to choose between Goodwin 1987 and Steel 1805 I would rely on Steel. I read up on Peter Goodwin a short time ago and he has a really interesting background/experiences that go from being a marine engineer on submarines to author and curator to being the history consultant on the movie Master and Commander. That is a man I would love to meet with over a good bottle of wine and nice dinner.

Allan
 
Alex R said:
Thanks Jeff. I'm spending a lot of time in preparing the pieces-sanding and fitting, sanding and fitting.., then glueing, and clamping, on top of the glass over the plan. I'm a night owl, usually finish about 1 AM sometimes 2 AM. even the dog is asleep so no interruptions.
Allan, the graphite mixed-in is dark gray to black. I mix it in a small applicator bottle with a flat steel syringe tip. I'm pretty sure one can get PVA glue in black.

Alex
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Amazon has all the glue you need - If they are in your country
TRS7139 said:
FWIW, I have always "suspected" the graphite powder may weaken the yellow titebond from test pieces I ran tests on. My end result is using a very porous black art paper between joints. when glued, it is quite thin, and yields a strong joint, IMHO, quite realistic. The big plus..... when hit with glue, both surfaces, just enough to fill any tiny void giving nice finish. When dry, very easy to simply chisel away from wood.View attachment 511662View attachment 511664
That said, for this project, I have finished keel, bow, transom using nothing and joinery seems realistic here as well/ all pieces here where cut scratch from stock.
That said, I have been a lurker here for some time.....great forum and looking forward to following everyones progress on this fine kit.

Tim
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Just wondering why the gap at the front of the keel

DEadwaterError.png
 
TRS7139 said:
FWIW, I have always "suspected" the graphite powder may weaken the yellow titebond from test pieces I ran tests on. My end result is using a very porous black art paper between joints. when glued, it is quite thin, and yields a strong joint, IMHO, quite realistic. The big plus..... when hit with glue, both surfaces, just enough to fill any tiny void giving nice finish. When dry, very easy to simply chisel away from wood.View attachment 511662View attachment 511664
That said, for this project, I have finished keel, bow, transom using nothing and joinery seems realistic here as well/ all pieces here where cut scratch from stock.
That said, I have been a lurker here for some time.....great forum and looking forward to following everyones progress on this fine kit.

Tim
Click to expand...
Another question - You say Pourous Black art Paper What is are you talking Black Tissue
 
richardjjs said:
Another question - You say Pourous Black art Paper What is are you talking Black Tissue
Click to expand...
Not tissue, very loose woven art paper bought at a commercial art supply store, if you hold it up to the light you can almost see through it, when glued it soaks up and compresses.
When you cut strips the gold filaments simply pull out.

Tim

IMG_0705.jpeg
 
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TRS7139 said:
the cutwater is still just trial fit.
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This is probably a terminology thing or maybe it is not visible in the photo, but there does not appear to be a cutwater. I am guessing the concern is the fit of the false keel and boxing joint of the keel to the gripe. Not an easy fix based on my own failures and do overs in these joints in the past.
Allan
1749512783887.jpeg
 
AllanKP69 said:
This is probably a terminology thing or maybe it is not visible in the photo, but there does not appear to be a cutwater. I am guessing the concern is the fit of the false keel and boxing joint of the keel to the gripe. Not an easy fix based on my own failures and do overs in these joints in the past.
Allan
View attachment 524657
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Yes, there is a cutwater. It's up higher above the gripe at the front edge. But I don't think that is what Tim is referring to. It's probably the Gripe he is talking about. Just a guess on my part though. :)
 
AllanKP69 said:
This is probably a terminology thing or maybe it is not visible in the photo, but there does not appear to be a cutwater. I am guessing the concern is the fit of the false keel and boxing joint of the keel to the gripe. Not an easy fix based on my own failures and do overs in these joints in the past.
Allan
View attachment 524657
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FWIW, A. it's not a fit issue, the false keel was fit long, trimmed up and then glued up.....perfect fit, zero do over required.
B. Alan, with all due respect, you're starting to sound like a freaking 7th grade English teacher. Let's lighten up, shall we.

Tim
 
richardjjs said:
trying to buy from Amazon what is it called - i am based in UK thanks
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Doubt that's going to work, it is one of several types of bulk "art paper"....unlabeled, sourced from an art supply house.
You need to have it in hand, lot's of various thickness'.
 
There is a very old trick that woodturners use when they want to make split columns for applying decoratively to the outside of something:

1749565716272.png

That trick is to glue two pieces of wood together with a single piece of paper between them. The column is then turned as a whole and the two halves are separated at the paper joint. Once the split is started at one end with a chisel, the two pieces can very easily be pulled apart by hand. I know, as I have made these.

Gluing paper between planks of decking is no problem because the planking is also glued to the beams (or plywood sub-deck), however, I would caution against assembling a stem with paper joints, because I fear that the slightest bump from the side would part those joints.
 
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RussF said:
There is a very old trick that woodturners use when they want to make split columns for applying decoratively to the outside of something:

View attachment 524747

That trick is to glue two pieces of wood together with a single piece of paper between them. The column is then turned as a whole and the two halves are separated at the paper joint. Once the split is started at one end with a chisel, the two pieces can very easily be pulled apart by hand. I know, as I have made these.

Gluing paper between planks of decking is no problem because the planking is also glued to the beams (or plywood sub-deck), however, I would caution against assembling a stem with paper joints, because I fear that the slightest bump from the side would part those joints.
Click to expand...
Hey,
oh very nice idear. Thanks for the tip.
Cheers
Günther Ship-1
 
RussF said:
There is a very old trick that woodturners use when they want to make split columns for applying decoratively to the outside of something:

View attachment 524747

That trick is to glue two pieces of wood together with a single piece of paper between them. The column is then turned as a whole and the two halves are separated at the paper joint. Once the split is started at one end with a chisel, the two pieces can very easily be pulled apart by hand. I know, as I have made these.

Gluing paper between planks of decking is no problem because the planking is also glued to the beams (or plywood sub-deck), however, I would caution against assembling a stem with paper joints, because I fear that the slightest bump from the side would part those joints.
Click to expand...
We’re not talking about normal paper here. This is very loose weave art paper and testing with it showed wood broke before joint failed, i.e. there’s paper and then, there’s paper, so porous the wood fibers are barely held togeather.
You can bump it, you can pound it with a hammer….it’s going nowhere.
 
But where can i get it please
Need a bit more detail Is it On Amazon (I am in UK)
Lots of time ive not received to Model Yet!!
 
TRS7139 said:
Not tissue, very loose woven art paper bought at a commercial art supply store, if you hold it up to the light you can almost see through it, when glued it soaks up and compresses.
When you cut strips the gold filaments simply pull out.

Tim

View attachment 524651
Click to expand...
I have looked everywhere for this
Are you in UK If so can you send me some!
Where did you get it Or what is it actually called
Is it on Amazon where you are
Very frustrated THANKS
 
TRS7139 said:
FWIW, I have always "suspected" the graphite powder may weaken the yellow titebond from test pieces I ran tests on. My end result is using a very porous black art paper between joints. when glued, it is quite thin, and yields a strong joint, IMHO, quite realistic. The big plus..... when hit with glue, both surfaces, just enough to fill any tiny void giving nice finish. When dry, very easy to simply chisel away from wood.View attachment 511662View attachment 511664
That said, for this project, I have finished keel, bow, transom using nothing and joinery seems realistic here as well/ all pieces here where cut scratch from stock.
That said, I have been a lurker here for some time.....great forum and looking forward to following everyones progress on this fine kit.

Tim
Click to expand...
Hi Tim Looks amazing is this using a drop of black glue ot the special paper !
cant wait for mine to arrive
 
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