Is there a way to search WikiCommons? ZAZ numbers don't seem to work and 26' launch just got me a bunch of rochet launching pictures. I'm hoping to get higher res pictures there than I can get a the RMG.
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Building a Ship's Boat
- Thread starter AllanKP69
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Not sure which "she" you're referring to. My "she" is the sloop of war Constellation built in 1854 which I'm building in 1:36 scale (I gave a link in that post and my signature). This is the drawing of her boats from the US National Archives:What kinds of boats are each of these? She carried eight boats, thus my question. Thanks
(click it to see it bigger)
Hi Don,
Could you tell me which HMS Discovery you are referring to? Believe it or not there were 13, including 6 from 1719 to 1800 alone.
Assuming these are for the vessel built in 1774 that accompanied Captain Cook I am guessing these are a pinnace, launch, yawl and cutter. These are really good looking boats!
If I am guessing correctly that boat #3 is a yawl (based on ZAZ7128 and number of thwarts) , except for the upper strake and landing strake, I am pretty so sure it would be carvel built as yawls were usually lapstrake built for Channel service, not foreign service as mentioned in post #32 above. This can be seen as carvel built on drawing ZAZ7128 that you listed. Also, the rounding of the bow on the model is sharper than in the plans. Yawls were more bluff bowed. It seems there were always exceptions in the RN though, so who knows? The most common error on modern ships' boat models are the number and location of the tholes. I cannot see any in the photo except on the pinnace. These are alternating on the pinnace as you have them so great job as this layout is often missed by both modelers and kits makers. I would love to see the plans for HIL 210 as I could not find it in a search at RMG and elsewhere.
There appear to be no gunwales on the cutter and yawl. Again, it may just be the photo resolution (and my old eyes) One last thing is that the launch and maybe the pinnace would have ears at the stem area at the same height as the gunwale. Steel gives scantlings for ears for cutters and yawls as well but I do not recall seeing contemporary plans or models of cutters or yawls with ears.
Allan
Could you tell me which HMS Discovery you are referring to? Believe it or not there were 13, including 6 from 1719 to 1800 alone.
Assuming these are for the vessel built in 1774 that accompanied Captain Cook I am guessing these are a pinnace, launch, yawl and cutter. These are really good looking boats!
If I am guessing correctly that boat #3 is a yawl (based on ZAZ7128 and number of thwarts) , except for the upper strake and landing strake, I am pretty so sure it would be carvel built as yawls were usually lapstrake built for Channel service, not foreign service as mentioned in post #32 above. This can be seen as carvel built on drawing ZAZ7128 that you listed. Also, the rounding of the bow on the model is sharper than in the plans. Yawls were more bluff bowed. It seems there were always exceptions in the RN though, so who knows? The most common error on modern ships' boat models are the number and location of the tholes. I cannot see any in the photo except on the pinnace. These are alternating on the pinnace as you have them so great job as this layout is often missed by both modelers and kits makers. I would love to see the plans for HIL 210 as I could not find it in a search at RMG and elsewhere.
There appear to be no gunwales on the cutter and yawl. Again, it may just be the photo resolution (and my old eyes) One last thing is that the launch and maybe the pinnace would have ears at the stem area at the same height as the gunwale. Steel gives scantlings for ears for cutters and yawls as well but I do not recall seeing contemporary plans or models of cutters or yawls with ears.
Allan
Don, ZAZ numbers are best used on the RMG site
Collection Results | Royal Museums Greenwich
Find objects, archive records and library items relating to your search, and use the filters to narrow down your results.
For the wiki site you need to search and it is a pain in the neck at times.
There are a bunch of 26 foot yawl drawings there, including ZAZ7128 on page 3Category:Ship plans of the Royal Museums Greenwich - Wikimedia Commons
Hi Jerry,
Sorry I misunderstood. I was thinking Constitution, not Constellation., totally my fault. So far I have never researched any ship's boats after the early 19th century so cannot comment. Your source is one of the best for American craft and an interesting place to visit and do some research. When I was looking for information and photos of the ships on which I sailed long after I came ashore they were extremely polite and helpful. I envy you for being near the Archives, Library of Congress, and Preble Hall.
Allan
Sorry I misunderstood. I was thinking Constitution, not Constellation., totally my fault. So far I have never researched any ship's boats after the early 19th century so cannot comment. Your source is one of the best for American craft and an interesting place to visit and do some research. When I was looking for information and photos of the ships on which I sailed long after I came ashore they were extremely polite and helpful. I envy you for being near the Archives, Library of Congress, and Preble Hall.
Allan
Discovery1789, George Vancouver's ship. I live on Discovery Passage, named after the ship, and it seemed fitting to build her. I could have seen her from the beach in front of my house.
I've dug out the drawings and I'm taking a more critical look at them. In a lot of the cases I just couldn't make out the details so I just guessed. Maybe I'm a little wiser now. Clinker boats were the fish boat of choice around here (with a Briggs and Stratton of course) when I was a boy so when I didn't know what to do I just relied on my memory. The fish boats were a little sleeker.
See what you think about the 1789 version. I wrote in post 31 what Vancouver's journal lead me to think.
I've dug out the drawings and I'm taking a more critical look at them. In a lot of the cases I just couldn't make out the details so I just guessed. Maybe I'm a little wiser now. Clinker boats were the fish boat of choice around here (with a Briggs and Stratton of course) when I was a boy so when I didn't know what to do I just relied on my memory. The fish boats were a little sleeker.
See what you think about the 1789 version. I wrote in post 31 what Vancouver's journal lead me to think.
Sorry Don, I should have looked at your signature that points out which vessel and went back to your post #31. Still new here and missed this. 1789 boat designs were pretty much the same as 1774. By the same token I am sure no two boat yards built every boat the same. There were contracts as mentioned above giving a number of scantlings and they had the body plans, but this does not mean they were followed exactly. Going on the assumption she was outfitted as a sixth rate she would have probably had a pinnace and two cutters. BUT, her purpose and her captain might call for differences. The journal is contemporary and specific. Barring any other specific contemporary information, the journal is a good indicator. As Vancouver does not make mention one way or the other and Menzies and the middie did, I would go with the pinnace, launch and two cutters. I sincerely doubt anyone can argue the point unless them found additional contemporary information.
A note on planking. The planks seem to be overly thick on modern models which creates the need for an oversize gunwale. The photo below shows the planking at the specified thickness. The photo below is the 1:96 longboat.
The gunwale can be made using the drawings, but I find it best to use the hull to trace out the gunwale on one side. Two pieces are made from this tracing so they are a match port and starboard.
The keelson, risings, and footwaling were sized according to the scantlings. They are simple pieces easily made by hand with a rule and hobby knife from appropriate thickness sheets.
The photo below shows some of the internals on a the 23 foot launch model including mast steps.
The gunwale can be made using the drawings, but I find it best to use the hull to trace out the gunwale on one side. Two pieces are made from this tracing so they are a match port and starboard.
The keelson, risings, and footwaling were sized according to the scantlings. They are simple pieces easily made by hand with a rule and hobby knife from appropriate thickness sheets.
The photo below shows some of the internals on a the 23 foot launch model including mast steps.
Vancouver does mention the launch, yawl and cutters quite a bit. He never mentions a pinnace. I have Menzies journal but it only covers the time they were in the Puget Sound- Discovery Passage area. He only mentions the boats a couple of times. I'll have to open both of the journals at the same dates and see if that adds any light.
You mentioned that my boats looked a little pointy. I compared them with the original drawings and they actually look good. Maybe even a little more bluff. Where they are wrong is they don't have as much turn in the bilge( is that the right phrase?) so I'll probably rebuild them. I'll have to check to see if it's my molds(hand carved) or maybe they sprung a bit when I took them off the molds. Time will tell. Thanks for the help.
No matter, your boats are very well done!! It could very well be the photo angle that had me thinking they are less rounded at the bow than the plans.
Cheers
In the two journals, Vancouver's and Menzies', Vancouver never mentions a pinnace and Menzies never mentions a yawl so it seems one of them was calling boat "x" by the wrong name. Are they very similar? I would assume that since Vancouver probably ordered them he should know. He's also a Capt. and Menzies is a botanist/doctor.
Larger boats that had anchor duties carried a single piece davit that was set onto a cross bar below the aft platform. I have seen some boat models with two davits, one on each side of the rudder tiller. The rudder was unshipped when using the davit so there was only the single davit, not a pair. The davit can easily be shaped with a coping saw or even a hobby knife for smaller scale parts as it will be very thin. The pin is set in a block as in the drawing below. My apologies for not taking a photo of this before gluing in the platform. There are also two guide arms on each side of the davit that are fixed in place as they do not interfere with the tiller.
Boats typically had knees after that supported the corners of the hull planks, a breast hook at the bow, and on launches and long boats (and others at times) ears. Note that there is an opening in the aft platform for the foot of the davit. This is the 1:96 long boat and shows that even at this small scale these details are not difficult to include.
Boats typically had knees after that supported the corners of the hull planks, a breast hook at the bow, and on launches and long boats (and others at times) ears. Note that there is an opening in the aft platform for the foot of the davit. This is the 1:96 long boat and shows that even at this small scale these details are not difficult to include.
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So that's a davit! I thought it was the tiller on the plan (ZAZ7358) I was looking at. 
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Amazing work and detail. Great skill ! Fantastic!!!
A few seemingly small and simple items that some may find to be of interest follow.
There were platforms aft and forward. I have seen modern models that show these to be gratings but I cannot find any contemporary plans or models that indicate the use of gratings. This may have been done and I would love to find information based on contemporary sources that gratings were used. Again, no two boat yards did everything exactly the same, but the contemporary plans and contracts I have been able to find never show or mention gratings.
Ships' boats had gunwales, not cap rails. The gunwales had to give support to the tops of the frames, tholes, oars and wash boards (if the boat was outfitted for
them.) The gunwales were relatively thick pieces being from about 2.25" to 4.5" deep on longboats and launches by 2" to 4" thick depending on the size of the boat. Pinnaces were over 3" deep by a little less than 2" thick. Scantlings for all types and many sizes of each type boat can be found in various books as well as the on-line version of David Steel's work as mentioned previously.
The ears are very evident, easy to make and install, and called out in the scantlings but these seem to be left out on most models. Builder's choice but why not include them if they are called for.
There were typically two or more lift rings anchored to the stem and stern post or deadwood which are easily made of copper wire and blackened with liver of sulfur or chemically blackened brass. There are cases where there were additional rings anchored to the keelson and keel. An example is below.
Not all boats were the exactly the same but most, if not all, had both fixed and removable thwarts, especially longboats and launches. The loose thwarts could be removed to carry barrels and other large items when going ashore for provisions. The fixed thwarts usually had standing knees. The main thwart(s) against which a mast(s) rested was about twice the thickness of the others, being in the neighborhood of 4 inches thick and several inches wider.
There were benches for the helmsman and officers aft that rested on the riser and aft most thwart. These were typically about 12" broad wide and 1.25" to 1.5" thick.
Boats with lifting duties would be fitted with a windlass that is anchored in chocks port and starboard about midships I start with square stock and then plane or file the somewhat octagonal shape most often seen in the center portion. There is a set of four square holes towards each end for the bars to be inserted by the crewmen turning the windlass. I drill round holes that match the outside dimensions needed then a very sharp small chisel to square up the holes.
The windlass for boats that carried them can be seen on contemporary plans and models. They were typically 7" to 10" diameter depending on the boat size. Until very recently, I never noticed the slot in the chocks that hold the windlass. I usually make a single hole in the chocks within which the windlass would rotate. I am not at all sure of purpose of having a slot but guessing it is so the windlass can be slid on one side in order to help remove it from the chocks when not needed. I don't know if this was simply a modeler's convention or used on the actual boats. Any thoughts on this are most welcome.
Tholes came in a variety of shapes depending on the era and boat type. Simple pins were commonly used well into the mid 18th century. When wash board were used the tholes were normally slotted pieces of square stock wood sometimes reinforced with knees. Two designs that I have found that are in addition to simple pins follow:
One of my pet peeves is the numbers and locations of the tholes. The fault may lie in insufficient information on some contemporary plans. For example the side view in the drawings below look to have a thole for every other thwart, which is correct. Given just the elevation drawing I can understand how some assume there would be matching thole exactly opposite and none on the adjacent thwarts leaving half the thwarts without tholes/rowers. This was not likely the case as there would be one thole for every thwart on these single banked boats and full sets of pairs on double banked boats. Compare the top and side view to see there are no thwarts without a thole. Not all contemporary drawings show the tholes on the top view, thus causing confusion or forcing assumptions to made. In general, not always, launches, barges, and longboats were those that were commonly double banked. Pinnaces, cutters, and yawls were mostly, if not always, single banked. The first plan elevation view below shows the starboard tholes in black ink and the port tholes in red ink. The top view shows the starboard tholes on every other thwart. The second plan below shows the starboard tholes on the elevation view and port tholes on the top view.
There were platforms aft and forward. I have seen modern models that show these to be gratings but I cannot find any contemporary plans or models that indicate the use of gratings. This may have been done and I would love to find information based on contemporary sources that gratings were used. Again, no two boat yards did everything exactly the same, but the contemporary plans and contracts I have been able to find never show or mention gratings.
Ships' boats had gunwales, not cap rails. The gunwales had to give support to the tops of the frames, tholes, oars and wash boards (if the boat was outfitted for
them.) The gunwales were relatively thick pieces being from about 2.25" to 4.5" deep on longboats and launches by 2" to 4" thick depending on the size of the boat. Pinnaces were over 3" deep by a little less than 2" thick. Scantlings for all types and many sizes of each type boat can be found in various books as well as the on-line version of David Steel's work as mentioned previously.
The ears are very evident, easy to make and install, and called out in the scantlings but these seem to be left out on most models. Builder's choice but why not include them if they are called for.
There were typically two or more lift rings anchored to the stem and stern post or deadwood which are easily made of copper wire and blackened with liver of sulfur or chemically blackened brass. There are cases where there were additional rings anchored to the keelson and keel. An example is below.
Not all boats were the exactly the same but most, if not all, had both fixed and removable thwarts, especially longboats and launches. The loose thwarts could be removed to carry barrels and other large items when going ashore for provisions. The fixed thwarts usually had standing knees. The main thwart(s) against which a mast(s) rested was about twice the thickness of the others, being in the neighborhood of 4 inches thick and several inches wider.
There were benches for the helmsman and officers aft that rested on the riser and aft most thwart. These were typically about 12" broad wide and 1.25" to 1.5" thick.
Boats with lifting duties would be fitted with a windlass that is anchored in chocks port and starboard about midships I start with square stock and then plane or file the somewhat octagonal shape most often seen in the center portion. There is a set of four square holes towards each end for the bars to be inserted by the crewmen turning the windlass. I drill round holes that match the outside dimensions needed then a very sharp small chisel to square up the holes.
The windlass for boats that carried them can be seen on contemporary plans and models. They were typically 7" to 10" diameter depending on the boat size. Until very recently, I never noticed the slot in the chocks that hold the windlass. I usually make a single hole in the chocks within which the windlass would rotate. I am not at all sure of purpose of having a slot but guessing it is so the windlass can be slid on one side in order to help remove it from the chocks when not needed. I don't know if this was simply a modeler's convention or used on the actual boats. Any thoughts on this are most welcome.
Tholes came in a variety of shapes depending on the era and boat type. Simple pins were commonly used well into the mid 18th century. When wash board were used the tholes were normally slotted pieces of square stock wood sometimes reinforced with knees. Two designs that I have found that are in addition to simple pins follow:
One of my pet peeves is the numbers and locations of the tholes. The fault may lie in insufficient information on some contemporary plans. For example the side view in the drawings below look to have a thole for every other thwart, which is correct. Given just the elevation drawing I can understand how some assume there would be matching thole exactly opposite and none on the adjacent thwarts leaving half the thwarts without tholes/rowers. This was not likely the case as there would be one thole for every thwart on these single banked boats and full sets of pairs on double banked boats. Compare the top and side view to see there are no thwarts without a thole. Not all contemporary drawings show the tholes on the top view, thus causing confusion or forcing assumptions to made. In general, not always, launches, barges, and longboats were those that were commonly double banked. Pinnaces, cutters, and yawls were mostly, if not always, single banked. The first plan elevation view below shows the starboard tholes in black ink and the port tholes in red ink. The top view shows the starboard tholes on every other thwart. The second plan below shows the starboard tholes on the elevation view and port tholes on the top view.
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Hello Allan,
It is a pleasure to learn from you. Here is a picture of the longboat (esping) that accompanied the Vasa. Here the builders used a pocket of sorts for the windlass:
This configuration is repeated on the starboard.
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Great stuff Alan
The 22" cutter I built has gratings forward. It doesn't have a ZAZ number, it's HIL 210 for some reason.
So the gunwales are just thicker cap rails, sorta?
What are ears?
Thanks for all this info.
The 22" cutter I built has gratings forward. It doesn't have a ZAZ number, it's HIL 210 for some reason.
So the gunwales are just thicker cap rails, sorta?
What are ears?
Thanks for all this info.
So the gunwales are just thicker cap rails, sorta?
Pretty much...... gunwales on boats are in place of cap rails. They are heavier timber to support the tholes and oars.
I found the drawing of the cutter at RMG, thanks Don. It did not like the HIL number in the RMG Collections search box but I typed in Cutter 22 plans and it came up with others. Funny that the battens run athwartships, opposite of how they always run on a ship itself.
Ears -Not all boats seem to have had them, but larger boats usually did. By the same token In David Steel's scantlings in the Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture he gives dimensions for ears for all types and sizes of boats. They are at the bow and can be seen on the drawing in post 30 above and the drawings and model below.
Pretty much
...... gunwales on boats are in place of cap rails. They are heavier timber to support the tholes and oars.I found the drawing of the cutter at RMG, thanks Don. It did not like the HIL number in the RMG Collections search box but I typed in Cutter 22 plans and it came up with others. Funny that the battens run athwartships, opposite of how they always run on a ship itself.
Ears -Not all boats seem to have had them, but larger boats usually did. By the same token In David Steel's scantlings in the Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture he gives dimensions for ears for all types and sizes of boats. They are at the bow and can be seen on the drawing in post 30 above and the drawings and model below.
building lifeboats is one of my night terrors... congratulations, very good
These really are not hard to build, I realize it is a translation thing but there were no lifeboats on these old ships, only work boats.