Clipper Ship Build Thoughts

[rwiederrich]

We have the first part of a 3 part series published in NRJ Spring quarter adition. Highlighting the construction of my McKay clipper, Glory of the Seas.
The article focuses on the unique bow structure McKay implamented on all of his clipper designs. His *Naval Hoods* A structure only found on McKay clippers.

Check it out.

 

[Roger Pellett]

Mary @ NRG says print addition is delayed at the printers. Certainly looking forward to your article

Roger

 

[rwiederrich]

Mary @ NRG says print addition is delayed at the printers. Certainly looking forward to your article

Roger

Thanks Roger, I was wondering what was taking my copy so long to arrive. The members digital copy can be viewed, however.
My Partner Rich Jones took up the mantle, of authoring most of the article, referencing my observations and assessments, as we collaborated. This first part delves extensively into hidden data from first hand accounts and written references....not withstanding, photographic evidence of these structures reproduced on McKay's last clipper..Glory of the Seas. Michael Mjelde, author of several volumes on the subject of Glory of the Seas, shared a host of 50 years of collected data and images with us.
Several more installments are scheduled to follow in subsequent issues. Documenting the conclusions we have made, followed with step by step images of the model's construction.

Rob

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

the construction of my McKay clipper, Glory of the Seas.

Rob,

I see your logs as virtuoso performances. Getting a vessel to dance your tune at 1/8" scale is even more of an achievement.
Your present Stag Hound log is outstanding, but ( me probably being impertinent ) I wish it had remained a solo performance.

As long as I have your attention, I have a question probably better asked in the School.
In concert with the title of this thread:

Howard Chapelle redrafted the plans of many American clipper ships. They are on display as figures in his many books Those plans are available from The Smithsonian usually at 1/4" scale.
I lofted his plan for Stag Hound at 1:60 for POF. I would like to have room for me in my condo so I will forgo actually building it. One thing that I did like is how far forward the Body plan takes the stations.

David Macgregor also drafted more than a few clipper ship plans. They reside at the S.S.Great Britain website. Some or all may be PDF and available for purchase/download. I have not investigated this. I will see if I can upload the catalog PDF:
Nope - too large.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...MQFnoECBgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1mbX5gBQOvMcgsZ7zH6LY6

My question = Is there a reason that neither of these sources seem to be considered for providing plans for clipper projects?

 

[rwiederrich]

My question = Is there a reason that neither of these sources seem to be considered for providing plans for clipper projects?

Well (Jaager).....Chapelle's rendering...according to our investigations and according to Michael Mjelde. Are problematic in the sense that he made his renderings without any peer review. Furthermore, He never consulted with Donald McKay's son's exquisite half model . that accurately represents the Staghound from McKay's actual lofting transfers. Our research also concluded that the forecastle arrangement was inaccurately represented as well....as is most of McKay's redraftings that are used by model companies, in the past and today.
I would think that these two sources are drawing from the same misunderstood conclusions. My group nearly had to redraw the entire deck aft portico house using established reasonable practices of the time. Not what was assumed from previous renderings. Every reproduceable plan out there (Of any McKay clipper) fails to include McKay's famous *Naval Hoods*...depicted in many paintings of his ships and described in first hand accounts by Duncan McLean(who was an intimate of McKay)...and also on his well documented last clipper Glory of the Seas.

I would conclude, the vast majority of models of these magnificent vessels, have no idea they are being misrepresented....and the discriminating modeler, demands the most accurate plans. this is why we drew and lofted our own, because far too many errors existed, that our research revealed.

Rob(Not sure I answered your question)

 

[Roger Pellett]

An interesting book related to this subject is David McGregor’s British and American Clippers.

In it he traces the development of these vessels as built on both sides of the Atlantic from the later 1840’s through 1959. This means that he does not cover Glory of the Seas, Thermopylae, or Cutty Sark built in the 1860’s. The book is very similar to those written by Chapelle with lots of drawings. He often refer’s to Chapelle’s work.

An interesting feature of the book is his discussion where his wonderful drawings and many by Chapelle for each ship came from and how limited are reliable sources for these vessels.

Roger

 

[rwiederrich]

An interesting book related to this subject is David McGregor’s British and American Clippers.

In it he traces the development of these vessels as built on both sides of the Atlantic from the later 1840’s through 1959. This means that he does not cover Glory of the Seas, Thermopylae, or Cutty Sark built in the 1860’s. The book is very similar to those written by Chapelle with lots of drawings. He often refer’s to Chapelle’s work.

An interesting feature of the book is his discussion where his wonderful drawings and many by Chapelle for each ship came from and how limited are reliable sources for these vessels.

Roger

Yes Roger. I posess that book and it is a great resourse as you suggest. However, my group has isolated a specific structure that no contemporary naval architect has captured on any of their renderings of any of McKay's clippers. As I have mentioned numerously. His unique *Naval Hoods*. Not one model ever produced from any of their plans, rightly represents the stem, cutwater and true placement of the figurehead. The figurehead is treated as an after thought...simply glued to the beak of the stem. When in fact it had clear design and structural support by the head of the *Hood*, and the head of the stem, creating a foot for the figurehead.

 

[Roger Pellett]

I’m anxious to read about the naval hood when my Journal arrives. My father’s 1940’s Flying Cloud model features the figurehead just stuck onto the stem.

To me, the interesting feature of McGregor’s book is his commentary about the sources, how seldom lines Drawings exist, and how often they were taken from half models for British ships as well as American ones.

Of course like everything with time the book becomes dated

Roger

 

[rwiederrich]

I’m anxious to read about the naval hood when my Journal arrives. My father’s 1940’s Flying Cloud model features the figurehead just stuck onto the stem.

To me, the interesting feature of McGregor’s book is his commentary about the sources, how seldom lines Drawings exist, and how often they were taken from half models for British ships as well as American ones.

Of course like everything with time the book becomes dated

Roger

It is unfortunate that so many model suppliers, who use Chapella's drawing or others, fail to represent this feature on McKay models they sell.

Many drawings are taken from half models...and if you are familiar with the subject...you would quickly know, that half models only depict the form of the hull. that form does not include the stem, the curve of the cutwater...or the keel...or pretty much any contours above the sheer line.

So if you are drawing lines from a half model of..say the Flying Cloud and you only use the outlines of the model....you only have part of the picture. you have robbed the designer his identifying stem and hence the inclusion of the *Naval Hoods*.

Rich (Clipperfan)...has done a fantastic job of outlining the evolution and, unfortunately...the exclusion of this wonderful, ingenious, McKay structure.
The outline is quite lengthy...thus there will be several installments to rightly cover the subject.

Rob

 

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

I see your logs as virtuoso performances. Getting a vessel to dance your tune at 1/8" scale is even more of an achievement.
Your present Stag Hound log is outstanding, but ( me probably being impertinent ) I wish it had remained a solo performance.

As long as I have your attention, I have a question probably better asked in the School.
In concert with the title of this thread:

Howard Chapelle redrafted the plans of many American clipper ships. They are on display as figures in his many books Those plans are available from The Smithsonian usually at 1/4" scale.
I lofted his plan for Stag Hound at 1:60 for POF. I would like to have room for me in my condo so I will forgo actually building it. One thing that I did like is how far forward the Body plan takes the stations.

David Macgregor also drafted more than a few clipper ship plans. They reside at the S.S.Great Britain website. Some or all may be PDF and available for purchase/download. I have not investigated this. I will see if I can upload the catalog PDF:
Nope - too large.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...MQFnoECBgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1mbX5gBQOvMcgsZ7zH6LY6

My question = Is there a reason that neither of these sources seem to be considered for providing plans for clipper projects?

DAWarden-(Jaager): about a year ago I finally managed to secure the most authentic blueprints ever created of the McKay California clipper Stag Hound. They're actually drawings referred to by Cornelius McKay in his letter to Captain Arthur Clark when he turned over his large 4' scale hull model of the ship. They were created in 1:96th scale in 1850 from the lines taken off the mold loft floor as the vessel herself was under construction. It features a starboard sheer, port lower, port aft, starboard bow body and smaller sail plan all on one large sheet. None of the other conjectural plans published are accurate in comparison. I paid a nominal fee to the MIT museum which holds the original. It allowed me to get a copy but not to publish it. As long as you agree not to publish it either, send me a private message and I can send you a free copy so you can loft 100% accurate Stag Hound plans.

 

[rwiederrich]

Richard Jones write-up and the construction of my Glory of the Seas continues in part 2 of our research of Donald McKay's unique clipper structures, in the NRG Model Ship world quarterly.

 

[Finglas]

Bill,

I got in trouble on another forum with this advice but I’m either a slow learner, stubborn, or both, so here goes.

If you want to build a Clipper Ship, don’t let your perceived intexperience stand in your way. Build one!

The usual advice is to start with a “beginner kit” to develop skills before tackling something more complex. Life is, however, short and a Clipper is a long term project so why waste time first building a subject that doesn’t interest you. With Ed Tosti’s books you also have an excellent set of instructions written by a master builder. Even if you do decide to build something other than Young America, his technique still apply.

I don’t know how you’re outfitted for tools, but this could be a limitation particularly for milling wood. Amortized over the life of building a model, tools are a good investment. I’m still using tools that are well over 50 years old.

Roger

Roger
What you say is good. I smiled when I saw this. My thinking in almost every way. I NEED a long term project and just bought the books with CD's. I will mill my own wood as I have a stack of it, Costello, etc. Say. Could you list the tools you have? I have an older Unimat lathe and I was going to buy a mill too.. Proxxon or Sherline? or? I have a lot of the other doo dads, press, bandsaw, scroll saw. What does your shop look like?
PS.. I love all vessels fishing, commercial etc and mail packets. I also have a flying fish kit too.. (several others but I will sell them too.) I am not interested so much in canons.. and warship framing (wall of wood).
Thanks again Roger

Guy

 

[Finglas]

Funny……she always likes to show off my models and my library. She calls it the, “Eye Spy room”. You can sit in it for hours and search for hidden treasures. She sometimes complains , but, always is first to show off everything.
Especially when she says, It took him 2-5 years to finish this.

Just my living room from our love seat.

Rob

View attachment 469214

what a beautiful home.
Guy

 

[rwiederrich]

what a beautiful home.
Guy

Thanks Guy. I'm graciously permitted to have a nautical library and livingroom....not withstanding all my nautical parafanalia all around the house and outside. I have 5 ship models in the library....one in the livingroom.....one in the back bedroom....and one on the stairwell landing. Not forgetting the one currently being built in the shipyard.

Rob

 

[Finglas]

It is certainly a beautiful place. I have a basement that I work in. Nothing fancy here. I have basic tools and little milling things..
On a whim and good price I bought 2 billets of Castello (heavy) that I am planning to use for a scratch model of young america. I live in the sticks of va. I need to have it milled down to useable billets for the model. I will start looking around for someone who will mill the wood for me (at a cost of course). OR.. buy new milled billets. Where do you get your wood from? (I dont know if you build scratch). I am 70, married 47 years this month with 2 strokes (but recovered good enough to use a cane). I have known Donnie for years and years and the other sites too.. just no time then.. and 5 years of getting better from strokes.. here I am.. heh.
We will see how this goes.. if not then I will build a model of the MS flying fish... years and years ago I did other ships. but life in Navy (submarines), then Semiconductiors (Intel) then UVA (director of Faxilities, IT and security) unit my strokes in 10/2021 kept me too busy.. now I have lots and lots of time.. will never sail like I dreamed of so... I make models.

Best
Guy

PS.. I am still reading postings on Clippers.. and the like.. I have all the Crothers things.. and others.. Tosti stuff on order.

The wood I have is..

billets of castello
32x4.5x2.5
2..44x5x51 billets of castello

 

[Roger Pellett]

In response to your question about my tools, I have

Full sized power tools:
10” table saw
14” Bandsaw
Scroll Saw
4” jointer
12” planer

Model sized power tools
Byrnes saw
Sherline Lathe with milling column
Proxxon Dremel type tool and pen sander l have a full outfit of hand tools and I use them.

I highly recommend Sherline tools. They’re well built, rugged, and powerful. The only reason not to prefer a Sherline vs a Proxxon mill would be if you live outside the USA where shipping and customs duties become a problem.

I inherited my hand tools from my father and bought my first full sized power tools, my drill press in the early 1970’s. I bought additional ones as I could afford them and as projects required them. For example, I bought my planer during a time when I was restoring/ rebuilding wood canvas (Old Town type) canoes and needed to mill 150 bf of local white cedar lumber for canoe ribs and planking. I don’t have a single tool that I regretted buying.

Roger

 

[DAWarden-(Jaager)]

I will mill my own wood as I have a stack of it, Costello, etc. Say. Could you list the tools you have? I have an older Unimat lathe and I was going to buy a mill too.. Proxxon or Sherline? or? I have a lot of the other doo dads, press, bandsaw, scroll saw.

2 billets of Castello (heavy) that I am planning to use for a scratch model of young america.

I will start looking around for someone who will mill the wood for me (at a cost of course). OR.. buy new milled billets. Where do you get your wood from?

What scale for YA? If it is 1/8" or smaller Castelo will serve you well, if it is a larger scale it will be overkill. Much less expensive wood will do the job just as well.

You do not say which sticks in Virginia and there are a lot of sticks.

I am in Norfolk and Elkwood is too far for me now, I primarily buy from Yukon Lumber, but I
have been to Cygnus Lumber in Pungo - got the sunburned left arm to prove it.

If you are near C-ville check this yard:

https://cpjohnsonlumber.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/CP-Johnson-Lumber-Price-List-050726.pdf
C.P. Johnson
21457 Business Court, Elkwood, VA 22718
Please call (540)825-1006 to verify availability.
near Culpeper due west of Fredericksburg
You want to pay attention to the
Birch
Black Cherry
Hard Maple
Yellow Poplar

What size bandsaw?

A machinists mill and lathe are primarily used to work metal. They are machines used to make machines.
They are irreplaceable for that. They are much more than is needed to work wood.
I have a Unimat SL-1000 and it will also be a mill.

What you need for custom milling is a thickness sander. With the loss of the Byrnes sander, it is pretty much a DIY to get a worthwhile machine.

 

[Finglas]

Roger thanks for the nice answer.
Jaager (I will use that name for now). Thanks for your kind answer too. Did not know you knew the area

Sticks of Virginia. I live off of 17 headed south toward Goldvein/Summer Duck. https://maps.app.goo.gl/inNbDYBwdN2f86Mx5
I have been here 30+years. I know Norfolk/VA Beach very well. I have a special needs son in Oceanview. I worked on boats (subs) on the base years ago.
I also know about C.P. Johnson.. I will make a visit.

Sizes.. 1/72 framed or 1/96 POB++ I am thinking POB (because of size) there are logs on MSW (I am "waister") there. Very wary there anymore.

I have a small 10" bandsaw.. I need to get a full size but ...
I have a full sized tablesaw from the 50's.. I used it to put floors in my house here, removed all carpet.
I have two small table saws, a preac and a proxxon.
I have a proxxon circular sander.
Full sized drill press
Multiple dremel tools and vandalay fixtures.
The Unimat (I bought this from Bob Hunt years ago.. never used it) This goes on the FS block ...
A drum sander call the "Hog" again I think from Vandalay

The builds for the YA are very differeent 1/72 (POF), 1/96 (POB++) ++= lots of filling blocks,, lots of shaping. Both complex. Not so many logs and this is why...
Looking at this and doing it are 2 different things.. I am still on the fence for either.. my heart tells me go for it... my practical side...well..

I Love CLippers, have all the books (Crothers and others) I like commercial ships (no cannons to worry about) and I like Fishing vessels (I have LOTS of books here too).

I have a small stash.. several that I wont build and will sell or find a new home for.
On my short list: I have not started any..
1. The YA..
2. MS Flying Fish
3. Smuggler (BlueJacket)
4. boy MS (but made scratch)
5. Constitution.. (yes I know cannons)..
I also have Benjamin Laytham. Bluenose PoF (dont tell MSW), Elsinor Bluenose prints and the Bluenose II prints...
And one I bought but should not have the "Harpy" Vanguard I will be selling..
TOO much for one life time after 70.. I dont know what I was thinking... but I think this is common among us old guys... btw.. where are young guys anymore?
No more models..besides the admiral of 47 years is having conniptions...

Guy






Report

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[rwiederrich]

Where do you get your wood from? (I dont know if you build scratch). I am 70, married 47 years this month with 2 strokes (but recovered good enough to use a cane).

I build all my models from scratch, however, I build POB. I don't build to show off the wood construction. All the prototype clippers I build replicas of, were painted.
Sorry to here about the strokes...good that you have recovered well enough to conversate and build models. Praise God.
When I do need milled wood, I mill it myself, or buy premilled in limited quantities. I look forward to your build.

Rob

 

[Finglas]

Rob,
Do you build exclusively 1/96 or 1/8=1' ? I am thinking of the POB route.. If you look at YA POB it is quite something to see.. he used 2x4 stock to put spacers in..
Guy