"Flying Cloud " by Mamoli - kit bash

Bill,News
I love the gorgeous John Steel artwork on the original release from the 1960s!
Do yourself a favor and immediately lose that silly house that Revell placed where the forecastle would be. Hopefully you didn't install that. It's wildly inaccurate. Here's the link to the actual description of Stag Hound once again by Duncan McLean, Boston Daily Atlas, December 21, 1859.

Of course, it's crazy to try and replicate the details on a model about a foot long..
Yes, that silly house is gone! We are also trying to make structural revisions to make it into something resembling the real ship. Resources are somewhat scarce; thank you for sending some! I appreciate it very much.

Bill
 
@WilliamM
Bill,
Depending on how much you want to replicate Stag Hound's actual appearance, you can get very specific deck structure details from the Boston Daily Atlas article which you should be able to access. A surprising development occured for all of us in our Glory of the Seas reconstruction process. We learned that the forecastle deck is much higher than we first read. The only bulkhead around this deck is the 18" splash rail. Michael Mjelde shared some rare letters with us which specifically identified the internal deck height as 5'9". Adding in 3 & 1/2" deck thickness and the actual height is 6' 1/2". It's so tall that there are bulkhead walls with graceful molding on them. What surprised me was learning how ornate these vessels really were. I made a few sketches of deck structures. If you want I can share them with you.
 
Latest progress: the coach house thus far.I decided to paint the furniture and houses the same pearl as the bulwarks. Still awaiting doors, windows, corbels and roof treatment.
The fancy work at the bow. Done off the model on black card stock with fine line gold pens. Easier than a brush. But the gold "ink" is still kinda runny and hard to control.20240706_163336.jpg20240706_163403.jpg20240706_163309.jpg20240707_164555.jpg20240707_164531.jpg20240707_164329.jpg20240707_164348.jpg
 
@WilliamM
Bill,
Depending on how much you want to replicate Stag Hound's actual appearance, you can get very specific deck structure details from the Boston Daily Atlas article which you should be able to access. A surprising development occured for all of us in our Glory of the Seas reconstruction process. We learned that the forecastle deck is much higher than we first read. The only bulkhead around this deck is the 18" splash rail. Michael Mjelde shared some rare letters with us which specifically identified the internal deck height as 5'9". Adding in 3 & 1/2" deck thickness and the actual height is 6' 1/2". It's so tall that there are bulkhead walls with graceful molding on them. What surprised me was learning how ornate these vessels really were. I made a few sketches of deck structures. If you want I can share them with you.
Rich, please post any sketches you have made. I am sure they will prove helpful to other clipper fans such as Bill and myself. I'd love to have them as part of this build log, hopefully to enhance its usefulness to others interested in building clippers.

Pete
 
@WilliamM
Bill,
Depending on how much you want to replicate Stag Hound's actual appearance, you can get very specific deck structure details from the Boston Daily Atlas article which you should be able to access. A surprising development occured for all of us in our Glory of the Seas reconstruction process. We learned that the forecastle deck is much higher than we first read. The only bulkhead around this deck is the 18" splash rail. Michael Mjelde shared some rare letters with us which specifically identified the internal deck height as 5'9". Adding in 3 & 1/2" deck thickness and the actual height is 6' 1/2". It's so tall that there are bulkhead walls with graceful molding on them. What surprised me was learning how ornate these vessels really were. I made a few sketches of deck structures. If you want I can share them with you.
Please do! Thank you!

Bill
 
Bill,
I will do so but for the past 2 years my focus has been primarily on Glory or the Seas. I believe a lot of the details can be appropriate for other McKay vessels. Some I have on my phone, others are on my laptop. Here in random order are a few examples:
(1) Flying Cloud bow, not to scale but includes decorated naval hood, cutwater & trumpet bearing winged angel.
(2) Glory of the Seas stern and poop deck scale reconstruction. Note how there are 5' walkways which remain consistent while rear coach House narrows to accomodate crew working area.
(3) Sovereign of the Seas bow, not to scale but includes naval hood, cutwater and merman figurehead. Sketched on a blank envelope.
(4) McKay's last clipper Glory of the Seas drawn to scale.
(5) Grecian goddess Athene figurehead from Glory of the Seas with naval hood, cutwater, bowsprit and inner jibboom,
elements drawn to scale. Figurehead actually has a loop where she grabs her flowing tunic.
(6) very ornate front facade of the large coach House on Glory of the Seas all drawn to scale, depicting accurate number and spacing of turned stanchions. Note: 4 windows with semi-circular arches. There's a remarkable similarity between this facade and that of Flying Fish depicted in JE Buttersworth's large piece. Blue Jacket plans are way too basic.
(7) side view of the same coach House, drawn to scale.
(8) ornate bow from Glory of the Seas all drawn to 1:96th scale, including precise carvings in naval hood and cutwater, as well as accurate placement of figurehead.
(9) forward starboard view from Glory of the Seas.
(10) aft section from Glory of the Seas depicting coach House, dual skylights, companionway and rear wheelhouse.
(11) clipper Stag Hound starboard broadside, roughly to scale.
(12) nameboard taken off Glory of the Seas. Drawn to scale, taken from close up photo.
(13) Angelic, winged trumpet bearing figurehead from Clipper Flying Cloud.
(14) Glory of the Seas skylight drawn to scale with one mistake. Eight window sections on top should be six, matching side arrangements. Skylights double as seating surfaces.

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I guess it's a little late to add some little feet to my angel. :rolleyes:
Cool drawings!
How elaborate would the doors and windows on the deck and coach houses have been on Flying Cloud?
 
Peter,
I've been pursuing reconstruction of McKay's authentic clipper ship appearance for years, since I discovered precise dimensions listed in Duncan McLean's Boston Daily Atlas articles. My winged angel figurehead is based on the description in his article, historic illustrations and the Flying Cloud advertising poster featuring her angelic figurehead image. I hope to eventually create scale reconstructions of these magnificent vessels.
To help you visualize scale proportions, I'll use Glory of the Seas as a reference. She was 265 ft long overall from taffrail to knightheads. Her figurehead is 7 & 1/2 feet. Flying Cloud was 235 ft for the same measurements. Dividing 7.5 by 265 gave me a ratio of .28. Multiplying x 235 resulted in 6 ft 8". So I'd round it up to an even 7 feet. I suspect you'll find your lovely angel figurehead is out of scale. Unless you want to completely revise your existing work to achieve rigid scale accuracy, I'd leave it alone.
These specs come directly from the McLean article: Flying Cloud had a 30 ft forecastle amidship. Since Glory of the Seas had a forecastle that was straight across, I would believe Flying Cloud had the same profile, not the conjectural curved one in the Boucher model. Height above main deck would have been 6 ft, so she would have had iron safety rails in her aft end, with bulkheads on both side trimmed in gothic style cabinet moldings. She most likely would have had dual ladders with iron safety railings. Abaft her foremast, she had a house 41 ft long x 18 ft wide × 6 & 1/2 ft high. This structure had simple sliding doors with gothic moldings, rectangular windows with shutters in the upper section and gothic moldings in the lower section below. She had a main rail which ran completely around the ship's interior, with a 16 inch monkey rail above. In her stern she has a 68 ft poop deck 5 ft high, completely surrounded by turned stanchions. In the center she has a small portico, which covers an entrance to apartments 3 feet below. This would have been most likely an 8 ft high x 8 ft square structure with a 3 & 1/2 ft modestly arched, gothic molded sliding door in front, with 1 & 1/2 wide x 3 ft tall arched windows on both sides, divided by modest pillars with capital crowns and carved cornices on both ends. Most of this structure would have been recessed with about a 3 ft projection to allow clearance for the companionway directly in front. It would have had two 1 & 1/2 ft wide × 2 ft high windows on both sides. There would have been several rectangular windows with shutters around the rest of the sides to provide plenty of light. In between would have been seperated by gothic molded panels. Since this area would have provided an excellent elevated view, I can't see how this portico wouldn't have been surrounded by a railing with turned stanchions. Roof would have had a 3 ft front overhang in front with 1 ft side overhangs, making the area 11 ft x 10 ft. To allow clearance for her dual capstans, I believe this portico would have had a double wide central stairs with turned stanchion railings. She would have had one maybe two 6 ft x 4 ft x 3 ft high skylight seats similar to those installed on Glory of the Seas.

(1) original clipper Flying Cloud advertisement. My figurehead illustration draws from this combined with historic images showing her with wings.
(2) November 12th, 1977 Glory of the Seas coach house front facade, illustrated by Michael Mjelde. He captures the pillars with caps better than I did, while my work shows more of the gothic panel moldings.
(3) my Glory of the Seas stern sketch of her lettering with ornate alcanthus leaf carvings. Note letter font differs from those on her signboards. Flying Cloud would have followed a similar layout.



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Peter,
I've been pursuing reconstruction of McKay's authentic clipper ship appearance for years, since I discovered precise dimensions listed in Duncan McLean's Boston Daily Atlas articles. My winged angel figurehead is based on the description in his article, historic illustrations and the Flying Cloud advertising poster featuring her angelic figurehead image. I hope to eventually create scale reconstructions of these magnificent vessels.
To help you visualize scale proportions, I'll use Glory of the Seas as a reference. She was 265 ft long overall from taffrail to knightheads. Her figurehead is 7 & 1/2 feet. Flying Cloud was 235 ft for the same measurements. Dividing 7.5 by 265 gave me a ratio of .28. Multiplying x 235 resulted in 6 ft 8". So I'd round it up to an even 7 feet. I suspect you'll find your lovely angel figurehead is out of scale. Unless you want to completely revise your existing work to achieve rigid scale accuracy, I'd leave it alone.
These specs come directly from the McLean article: Flying Cloud had a 30 ft forecastle amidship. Since Glory of the Seas had a forecastle that was straight across, I would believe Flying Cloud had the same profile, not the conjectural curved one in the Boucher model. Height above main deck would have been 6 ft, so she would have had iron safety rails in her aft end, with bulkheads on both side trimmed in gothic style cabinet moldings. She most likely would have had dual ladders with iron safety railings. Abaft her foremast, she had a house 41 ft long x 18 ft wide × 6 & 1/2 ft high. This structure had simple sliding doors with gothic moldings, rectangular windows with shutters in the upper section and gothic moldings in the lower section below. She had a main rail which ran completely around the ship's interior, with a 16 inch monkey rail above. In her stern she has a 68 ft poop deck 5 ft high, completely surrounded by turned stanchions. In the center she has a small portico, which covers an entrance to apartments 3 feet below. This would have been most likely an 8 ft high x 8 ft square structure with a 3 & 1/2 ft modestly arched, gothic molded sliding door in front, with 1 & 1/2 wide x 3 ft tall arched windows on both sides, divided by modest pillars with capital crowns and carved cornices on both ends. Most of this structure would have been recessed with about a 3 ft projection to allow clearance for the companionway directly in front. It would have had two 1 & 1/2 ft wide × 2 ft high windows on both sides. There would have been several rectangular windows with shutters around the rest of the sides to provide plenty of light. In between would have been seperated by gothic molded panels. Since this area would have provided an excellent elevated view, I can't see how this portico wouldn't have been surrounded by a railing with turned stanchions. Roof would have had a 3 ft front overhang in front with 1 ft side overhangs, making the area 11 ft x 10 ft. To allow clearance for her dual capstans, I believe this portico would have had a double wide central stairs with turned stanchion railings. She would have had one maybe two 6 ft x 4 ft x 3 ft high skylight seats similar to those installed on Glory of the Seas.

(1) original clipper Flying Cloud advertisement. My figurehead illustration draws from this combined with historic images showing her with wings.
(2) November 12th, 1977 Glory of the Seas coach house front facade, illustrated by Michael Mjelde. He captures the pillars with caps better than I did, while my work shows more of the gothic panel moldings.
(3) my Glory of the Seas stern sketch of her lettering with ornate alcanthus leaf carvings. Note letter font differs from those on her signboards. Flying Cloud would have followed a similar layout.



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That wonderful front view drawing of the coach house will be very helpful since the timing is perfect as I'm just about at that stage with it on "Flying Cloud"
 
I suspect that a collaboration between you and Bill on the construction of his planned model of Flying Cloud might combine to produce a much more accurate imagining of what the ship may have looked like in detail than I am able to achieve at this juncture, having made some decisions and fabrications that to revise substantially at this point would do more harm than good to my model. As you mentioned, the figurehead in particular and, in my case, the curved leading edge of the forecastle deck are cases in point. I have been relying heavily on Scott Bradner's research and plans (see sobco.com, click on ship models) His latest model was built as a member of the U.S. Constitution Model Shipwright's Guild. As I keep discovering, whenever I think I've got a handle on it, something, or one comes along to disabuse me of whatever notion I have about the accuracy of whatever model it is I'm building at any given time. Case in point, as soon as I had made irreversible decisions about my "Young America", Ed Tosti came along with his incredible model and accompanying three volume tome! :rolleyes: I will continue to incorporate as many of your wonderful revelations into my model as I can. In the meantime, Bill might start a build log on his own Flying Cloud, perhaps incorporating your suggestions based on your exhaustive research. I believe they have done me and my model a world of good. Collaboration is a good thing and one of the true benefits of this forum.:D
 
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Peter,
That's an excellent idea! I have to readjust my figures a bit. I would take just a single door in center with a window on each side as the portion to use.
As I read it, the 5 ft high poop deck was completely surrounded by a 32 inch high turned stanchion rail. 8 feet, when taking in crown moldings doesn't leave enough room to butt the rail top into the portico sidewall. Adding an additional foot to bring height up to 9 ft clears that. When I did a quick sketch using 8 ft width, it shows that there's insufficient room to slide the door fully open. Using 10 ft works better. That's probably the dimension of the portion of the illustrated Glory of the Seas coach house front facade.
The layouts I've seen of Flying Cloud appear too show her masts set just a little too far back. I'm going to compare distances of Stag Hound to get spatial ratios for exact distances of the mast settings.
 
The conundrum of the booby hatch between the coach house and capstan appears to be resolved by the concept that it was the removable, covering of a hatch used for loading.
 
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Peter,
That's an excellent idea! I have to readjust my figures a bit. I would take just a single door in center with a window on each side as the portion to use.
As I read it, the 5 ft high poop deck was completely surrounded by a 32 inch high turned stanchion rail. 8 feet, when taking in crown moldings doesn't leave enough room to butt the rail top into the portico sidewall. Adding an additional foot to bring height up to 9 ft clears that. When I did a quick sketch using 8 ft width, it shows that there's insufficient room to slide the door fully open. Using 10 ft works better. That's probably the dimension of the portion of the illustrated Glory of the Seas coach house front facade.
The layouts I've seen of Flying Cloud appear too show her masts set just a little too far back. I'm going to compare distances of Stag Hound to get spatial ratios for exact distances of the mast settings.
These are things I'm going to have to work around given the dimensions of my model to date largely dictated by the Mamoli kit and materials.It does clear up a decision to continue the turned stanchion rail beside the coach house. One plan I have shows that, the other, iron railing.
 
I suspect that a collaboration between you and Bill on the construction of his planned model of Flying Cloud might combine to produce a much more accurate imagining of what the ship may have looked like in detail than I am able to achieve at this juncture, having made some decisions and fabrications that to revise substantially at this point would do more harm than good to my model. As you mentioned, the figurehead in particular and, in my case, the curved leading edge of the forecastle deck are cases in point. I have been relying heavily on Scott Bradner's research and plans (see sobco.com, click on ship models) His latest model was built as a member of the U.S. Constitution Model Shipwright's Guild. As I keep discovering, whenever I think I've got a handle on it, something, or one comes along to disabuse me of whatever notion I have about the accuracy of whatever model it is I'm building at any given time. Case in point, as soon as I had made irreversible decisions about my "Young America", Ed Tosti came along with his incredible model and accompanying three volume tomes! :rolleyes: I will continue to incorporate as many of your wonderful revelations into my model as I can. In the meantime, Bill might start a build log on his own Flying Cloud, perhaps incorporating your suggestions based on your exhaustive research. I believe they have done me and my model a world of good. Collaboration is a good thing and one of the true benefits of this forum.:D
Peter,
I understand what you're saying. It's never my intention to screw up modeler's efforts. Actually when Rob first began his 1:96:scratch build I convinced him that by simply relying on inaccurate published lines, he would merely replicate an incorrect vessel. It took some convincing at first. Once he understood that Michael Mjelde based his lines on Glory of the Seas fitting out in E Boston harbor, he realized that basing a hull on that one image would produce inaccurate results. It has to do with the ship's prow being foreshortened by perspective distortion. To his credit, Rob abandoned his first project, we started doing a thorough investigation of all aspects of this clipper. Eventually author Michael Mjelde got involved and on my opinion Rob and Vladimir finally have recreated two of the most accurate McKay clippers ever attempted.
Sometime, I will have to contact Mr Bradner to fill him in on the accurate bow of Flying Cloud. I'm familiar with his site. He even read and shared McLean's description but being unfamiliar with nautical devices such as naval hoods and cutwaters, he made the mistake of completely discounting them. I saw them first on the famous image of 1869 Glory of the Seas on her ways. So later, when I read the description I knew what to call those impressive devices that I first saw on the famous Black picture. Scott does have a lovely stylistic winged angel but as usual she's just tacked onto the bow. However I can offer you my input, just ask. I will still follow your work with great interest.
 
Peter,
Here's another result from my research, scientifically based on utilizing precise dimensions supplied in the description of McKay's Inaugural extreme clipper Stag Hound. Here are exact specifications:

exact distance center to center:
main deck between perpendiculars: 215'

from stem to foremast: 50' (.23)
from foremast to mainmast: 67' (.31)
from mainmast to mizzenmast: 56' (.26)
from mizzenmast to sternpost: 42' (.195)

Using Stag Hound ratios, here are Flying Cloud exact specifications:

main deck between perpendiculars: 225'

from stem to foremast: 52'
from foremast to mainmast: 70'
from mainmast to mizzenmast 59'
from mizzenmast to sternpost. 44'

I have no clue how these compare to the locations specified on your Mamoli model but I can say this is the principal we used to determine distances between masts on Glory of the Seas and it's uncanny how much Rob and Vladimir's models resemble historic images of the vessel herself.
 
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I suspect that a collaboration between you and Bill on the construction of his planned model of Flying Cloud might combine to produce a much more accurate imagining of what the ship may have looked like in detail than I am able to achieve at this juncture, having made some decisions and fabrications that to revise substantially at this point would do more harm than good to my model. As you mentioned, the figurehead in particular and, in my case, the curved leading edge of the forecastle deck are cases in point. I have been relying heavily on Scott Bradner's research and plans (see sobco.com, click on ship models) His latest model was built as a member of the U.S. Constitution Model Shipwright's Guild. As I keep discovering, whenever I think I've got a handle on it, something, or one comes along to disabuse me of whatever notion I have about the accuracy of whatever model it is I'm building at any given time. Case in point, as soon as I had made irreversible decisions about my "Young America", Ed Tosti came along with his incredible model and accompanying three volume tomes! :rolleyes: I will continue to incorporate as many of your wonderful revelations into my model as I can. In the meantime, Bill might start a build log on his own Flying Cloud, perhaps incorporating your suggestions based on your exhaustive research. I believe they have done me and my model a world of good. Collaboration is a good thing and one of the true benefits of this forum.:D
Yes, I plan on using this thread for its great information! You gentlemen are fantastic friends to me in your obvious idea of advancing our hobby!

Bill
 
Yes, I plan on using this thread for its great information! You gentlemen are fantastic friends to me in your obvious idea of advancing our hobby!

Bill
Bill,
Carpenters have a very familiar edge "Measure twice, cut once." It maybe tiresome my continual referring to our group's in-depth research for Rob and Vladimir's Glory of the Seas builds. But it's the best example I can share to show how careful study and evaluation can lead to a far superior model. I will continue sharing my insights; you can let me know if you find it beneficial or a hindrance.
 
Peter & Bill,
My first article on our group's 2 year investigation into authentically reconstructing Glory of the Seas, Donald McKay's last, longest lived clipper ship was published in Winter 2023 Nautical Research Journal. You can get a back copy on their website for $10.00. I encourage you to get your copy as it's full of ultra rare historic pictures of this vessel, actually one of McKay's largest of his massive clipper ships. More importantly, since she was afloat from her launch in 1869 until she ended her days as a fiery funeral pyre in 1923 there are many rare contemporary images of an actual McKay clipper. For 60 some odd years, Michael Mjelde has researched every iota of this magnificent vessel. His humble generosity in sharing many never seen before pics and documents allowed us to achieve a level of accuracy that I believe moves the study of clipper ships by an order of magnitude forward.
 
Please, keep doing what you are doing. I think a lot of people will benefit, regardless of how my model turns out. I think your input has generated a lot of interest in this thread and the subject in general. I spent today modifying my coach house and the poop deck recess to get a better spacing for the booby hatch, if I use that, or the placement of a hatch between the mast and the capstan as pictured on the BlueJacket plans. I'm making cardstock cutouts of the deck furniture footprints, so I can nibble on and fiddle with those to make everything fit and look proportionate. I can make a lot of cutouts before committing the hours to making the actual pieces that I then might not be able to use!
 
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