"Flying Cloud " by Mamoli - kit bash

[ClipperFan]

Peter,
I applaud your decision to revise your Flying Cloud forecastle (fo'c'sle) deck to the correct 5' main rail molding height. As we've discussed before, the underside of her fo'c'sle deck would have been 4'9". Since you already removed her windlass you agree with the fact that there wouldn't be a ceiling high enough to work this device underneath. You clearly want to replicate historically accurate appearance based on these latest developments. So, I'm sharing my concept illustration of the Stag Hound fo'c'sle bulkhead using the Boston Daily Atlas description. Rob and I have concluded her windlass, as well as both waterclosets would be located 3' below the main deck. That means crew quarters would also be below. Since Flying Cloud was just slightly larger than Stag Hound her predecessor, it's not a stretch to consider her almost a twin to that vessel. Here's an excerpt from McLean's article proving crew quarters were set up there.
This final sketch is 1:48th scale, double the size of 1:96th. Inspiration comes from the front fascia of the stern coach house on Glory of the Seas which really was this ornate. Typically, Duncan McLean is terse when it comes to his descriptions of any type of structual embellishments. All we know factually is that the fo'c'sle had accomodations for one watch of the crew an in the wings she had waterclosets. Twin companions and twin ladders are common sense to facilitate crew movement. It's almost 30 feet across. Having a single ladder or companion would cause a bottleneck.
Of course, this is all conjectural but based on serious research.

 

[Peter Gutterman]

I have to say, Peter, that you embrace the ‘do-over’ with more enthusiasm (and frequency ) than anyone else on the forum. Respect.

Thanks for the props!

Pete, I had to look twice and blow it up to recognize what you put in the basin . I'm glad the patient survived. How's the surgeon?

The reconstruction is the easy fun part. But I'm in no rush, with some other life stuff and a trip to the beach in the interim. So don't hold your collective breath. I plan to comport with the information concerning Flying Cloud as largely offered in Wm. Crothers American-Built Clippers book.

 

[Peter Gutterman]

Peter,
I applaud your decision to revise your Flying Cloud forecastle (fo'c'sle) deck to the correct 5' main rail molding height. As we've discussed before, the underside of her fo'c'sle deck would have been 4'9". Since you already removed her windlass you agree with the fact that there wouldn't be a ceiling high enough to work this device underneath. You clearly want to replicate historically accurate appearance based on these latest developments. So, I'm sharing my concept illustration of the Stag Hound fo'c'sle bulkhead using the Boston Daily Atlas description. Rob and I have concluded her windlass, as well as both waterclosets would be located 3' below the main deck. That means crew quarters would also be below. Since Flying Cloud was just slightly larger than Stag Hound her predecessor, it's not a stretch to consider her almost a twin to that vessel. Here's an excerpt from McLean's article proving crew quarters were set up there.

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Rich I plan to base my bulkhead on your drawing revising only so much as is needed to make it fit properly and proportionally. It's a great looking plan.

 

[ClipperFan]

Rich I plan to base my bulkhead on your drawing revising only so much as is needed to make it fit properly and proportionally. It's a great looking plan.

Peter,
Actually, I'm amazed you took the extra steps to revise your model. Here's an additional detail we learned from a starboard broadside Glory of the Seas view when she was beached at Endolyne. It turns out she had a wrap around structure very similar to a main deck waterway which comes to a very graceful point. This structure looks like at one point it held belaying pins. Ignore the bulky "criss-cross" gate at the aft end of her fo'c'sle which is not original.

 

[ClipperFan]

Rich I plan to base my bulkhead on your drawing revising only so much as is needed to make it fit properly and proportionally. It's a great looking plan.

Peter,
Thank you for the compliment. I find it's easier to fit in details at 1/4" = 1' which is 2x larger than 1/8" = 1'. If you give me the actual scale size of your bulkhead opening, I can sketch something up for you.

 

[Peter Gutterman]

Peter,
Thank you for the compliment. I find it's easier to fit in details at 1/4" = 1' which is 2x larger than 1/8" = 1'. If you give me the actual scale size of your bulkhead opening, I can sketch something up for you.

Thanks! I think I'll take a run at it first based on your current drawing. I'll have to modify it a little to fit the exact shape of the bulkhead first, yet to be determined.

 

[ClipperFan]

Thanks! I think I'll take a run at it first based on your current drawing. I'll have to modify it a little to fit the exact shape of the bulkhead first, yet to be determined.

Peter,
Just by having an enclosed front fo'c'sle you're going to again have the first clipper Flying Cloud which shows what an accommodation for crew actually looked like. It will also be the first McKay vessel not to have a windlass squeezed under an uncomfortably low ceiling. Well done!

 

[Peter Gutterman]

Peter,
Just by having an enclosed front fo'c'sle you're going to again have the first clipper Flying Cloud which shows what an accommodation for crew actually looked like. It will also be the first McKay vessel not to have a windlass squeezed under an uncomfortably low ceiling. Well done!

I will fabricate the facade over the bulkhead. I could fill in the Samson Post hole in the forecastle deck with planking and do my best to blend it in. Or it might be a good place for a skylight. There's nothing to say there wouldn't have been one there and it would be a logical place to have one. Thoughts?

 

[The Gavel]

Pete! As everyone knows, my opinion has nothing to do with historical accuracy. But like everyone, I still have an opinion . It looks like a place that a person would look at when looking at your ship. It is going to be hard to blend without drawing attention to the spot. With the effort your tiny shipwrights took with all of the planking, why would they have planked this spot in this way rather than removing the capstan and re-planked the area? Perhaps that is what your tiny shipwrights are planning to do. On the other hand, a skylight is a wonderful point of focus and you make excellent ones a skylight would be cool AND provide light for the work of the tiny sailors. So my "vote" is for a skylight. I'm certain that whatever you do will be pure artistry as per usual with you.

Blessings.
Chuck

 

[Roger Pellett]

It would be an unlikely place for a skylight with all of the foot traffic in this area required to work the ship. Ships of the period did have lens type deck lights for light below. This would be a more damage resistant choice.

Roger

 

[Peter Gutterman]

It would be an unlikely place for a skylight with all of the foot traffic in this area required to work the ship. Ships of the period did have lens type deck lights for light below. This would be a more damage resistant choice.

Roger

Good idea. Now I need to know what the lens would look like. Prisms were used.
thank you both for the input.

Pete

 

[ClipperFan]

Good idea. Now I need to know what the lens would look like. Prisms were used.
thank you both for the input.

Pete

Peter,
It's amazing how much cleaner and surprisingly larger your forward bulkhead looks now that she's fully enclosed. So far, the only 1900s prisms I've found are these green hexagonals. They would be flush mounted with brass surrounds, most likey painted to minimize maintenance , obviously with the pointed ends facing down below to spread light. They're tiny, being 4 & 1/2" full size. We're talikg tiny green dots at scale. Rob mentioned that Seattle still has oblong ones in their streets which are quite effective. I have no idea of their size. We discussed the possibility of a forecastle skylight but so far have settled on windows and possible prisms instead.
I agree with Roger's observation about this being a high traffic area. Sometimes memory plays tricks on you, especially half a century later. But I could swear I remember seeing translucent white banks of squares which formed rectangles along some sidewalks in NYC back in the 1950s, possibly over Subway lines. If anything, that's what I'd recommend to replace your open area.

 

[rwiederrich]

Personally....I would pop off the capstan...cut the 3 deck planks off underneath it and replace them. Nothing will be visible...under the capstan leveling boards. the new planks will be virtually unrecognizable as replacements.
Nothing suggests there was a skylight or deck prisms on the forecastle deck in that location. And if there were, they'd be the small ones like Rich posted...the ones I will be adding to Staghound.
If you're following Rich's drawing....place your ladders as far against the bulkhead as possible...next place the sliding roofs of your companion ways where the single bits are(they have to be removed as well)...and fill in between the companion way doors with windows if you like. Then add double bits(smaller ones just forward of the new ladders on the forecastle deck.....so they can be useful for the aft fairleads you have in the monkey rail.

If you have the nerve to make the changes...make ALL the changes. My view anyway.

Rob

 

[Peter Gutterman]

Instead of reverting to major surgery, I relied on my touch up artist skills developed in restoring furniture which often required new tiny bits to be adapted and blended within old original surrounding material in order to keep as much of that original material intact as possible. This required developing strategies of minimal cutting, careful fitting and choices of replacement materials as well as subtle staining and inpainting. I carefully cut away the bitts in question and made a piece to fill the hole where the Samson post had been. The trick is to make the filler piece from material as closely matched as possible to the original, cut it slightly oversized and chamfer the edges of the filler piece where it fits into the hole so that there is a slight overlap. Glue and press it firmly into the recess. Then after the glue is dry, carefully shave the excess material level with the surrounding material. Do this with as little, if any, sanding possible. Then using appropriate stains and/or paints blend the replacement surface to match the original. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. Usually, the patch is tiny enough as to be virtually imperceptible. Especially in an area of varied patina such as this. Sliding companionway covers will cover over where the sawn-off bitts had been. Crothers describes Flying Cloud's forecastle deck as being "full height" that is, even with the monkey rail, which mine is. However, a little more headroom appears to be required to easily gain access to the companionway. So, I intend to add the companionway sliding hatch cover.

 

[rwiederrich]

Good work. Your furniture repair/refurbishment skills have not let you down

Quite impressive.

Rob

 

[Peter Gutterman]

Thanks, Doc and Rob! And Jim as always.
With a little more careful examination and measuring, I find there is 6 scale feet from the weather deck to the underside of the forecastle deck. Ample room for passage in and out for a man of average height, mid19th c. So, I won't be adding any sliding hatch above. Which, as has been pointed out before, could impede foot traffic on the forecastle deck.

 

[ClipperFan]

Personally....I would pop off the capstan...cut the 3 deck planks off underneath it and replace them. Nothing will be visible...under the capstan leveling boards. the new planks will be virtually unrecognizable as replacements.
Nothing suggests there was a skylight or deck prisms on the forecastle deck in that location. And if there were, they'd be the small ones like Rich posted...the ones I will be adding to Staghound.
If you're following Rich's drawing....place your ladders as far against the bulkhead as possible...next place the sliding roofs of your companion ways where the single bits are(they have to be removed as well)...and fill in between the companion way doors with windows if you like. Then add double bits(smaller ones just forward of the new ladders on the forecastle deck.....so they can be useful for the aft fairleads you have in the monkey rail.

If you have the nerve to make the changes...make ALL the changes. My view anyway.

Rob

Rob,
We know that Stag Hound was equipped with an Emerson-Walker patented windlass. From your description that would have apparently made a forecastle capstan unnecessary. I wonder, then where were her two beautiful capstans made of mahogany and locust, inlaid with brass located? I was under the impression that one would still be on her forecastle and the other on her main deck aft of the mainmast pump fiferails. Isn't it possible that they may have retained a forecastle capstan, even if it was just for auxiliary use?
Crothers' notes for Flying Fish specify that besides having a patented windlass, she was also equipped with two capstans, one which was mounted on her forecastle. Again, I believe this is proof that despite having a patented windlass mounted below (her forecastle deck height was 4 & 1/2' main rail, making her height underneath 4' 2 & 1/2"). Yet, capstans were still carried on the forecastle deck above. Crothers has an appendix in the back of his book. In this case, it's 1, 100.

 

[Peter Gutterman]

I'
Note that Crothers doesn't show the two capstans on the poop deck or the companionway hatch in front of the portico. No windlass indicated. He does indicate two skylights on the great cabin roof.
What were all of Crothers resources?

 

[ClipperFan]

Thanks, Doc and Rob!
With a little more careful examination and measuring, I find there is 6 scale feet from the weather deck to the underside of the forecastle deck. Ample room for passage in and out for a man of average height, mid19th c. So, I won't be adding any sliding hatch above. Which, as has been pointed out before, could impede foot traffic on the forecastle deck.

Peter,
I would be curious to know what documentary sources Crothers relied on to give a contradictory height to Duncan McLean's 5' high bulwark stats in the Boston Daily Atlas. I'm not saying Crothers is wrong. However, the only documentation I've seen gave the forecastle deck height as 5'. Regardless, at 1:96th scale, it's a mere 1/8th" difference. You can also see from this brief passage that her accommodations for one watch of the crew were definitely provided for in the area beneath.

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Note that Crothers doesn't show the two capstans on the poop deck or the companionway hatch in front of the portico. No windlass indicated. He does indicate two skylights on the great cabin roof.
What were all of Crothers resources?

Peter,
From the small number 1,100 next to the Allyn's patent capstans; Emerson's patent ventilators Flying Cloud description, there's an appendix at the back of Crothers' book which should refer you to sources he relied on for his layout conclusions. Meanwhile, I took another look at McLean's detailed write-up. Unlike Stag Hound for which Duncan McLean calls out two capstans, he doesn't mention any capstans in his Flying Cloud article. Obviously, that doesn't mean there were none installed, he just doesn't mention any number. I also noticed Crothers portico outline is smaller and square, much more similar to that described for Stag Hound.

 

[ClipperFan]

I'View attachment 470941View attachment 470942
Note that Crothers doesn't show the two capstans on the poop deck or the companionway hatch in front of the portico. No windlass indicated. He does indicate two skylights on the great cabin roof.
What were all of Crothers resources?

Peter,
Check appendix references at the back of the book. Crothers has small numbers 1,100 next to the Flying Cloud description. 1 should be chapter 1 and 100 should be his reference source. I'm curious to know too, as this info isn't specified in the Boston Daily Atlas article.