"Flying Cloud " by Mamoli - kit bash

[Roger Pellett]

I have a model of Flying Cloud that my father built about 1945 from an AJ Fisher kit. It is unrigged as once the war ended he went on to build a full sized sailboat. About 2000 I received it from my sister poorly packed by the movers. I repaired the damage, freshened some paint, added stub masts and built a glass case. It has four capstans, a double on the focsle, a double on the main deck, and two singles on the poop. Although beautifully made, I don’t claim accuracy relative to you guys. Instead it’s simply a tribute to my father.

Speaking of capstans, the Wavertree at South Street Seaport has a two speed capstan; rotated in one direction it’s high speed, in the other it’s low speed. She was built 20-30 years after the Great Clippers, and of course it may not be original to ship.

Like many modelers I eas once enamored with the Nelson Era Wooden Walls. Lately I have become more interested in what I’ll call the industrial era period, about 1850- 1920.

Roger

 

[rwiederrich]

Thanks for your efforts. It’s in my reading stack. Thanks again for your efforts.

Thinking about it further......I've only come across several people in my clipper ship modeling career....that, truly appreciated Michael Mjelde's books on Glory of the Seas and her historical life and times. It was that , that spurred me to extend what little control I have....to another admirer of said volumes.
It was all my pleasure to be part of nurturing the joys of another modelers passions.
I live next to Mike...why not avail myself of that fact to bring happiness to others who are not as fortunate.

Rob

 

[Peter Gutterman]

I have a model of Flying Cloud that my father built about 1945 from an AJ Fisher kit. It is unrigged as once the war ended he went on to build a full sized sailboat. About 2000 I received it from my sister poorly packed by the movers. I repaired the damage, freshened some paint, added stub masts and built a glass case. It has four capstans, a double on the focsle, a double on the main deck, and two singles on the poop. Although beautifully made, I don’t claim accuracy relative to you guys. Instead it’s simply a tribute to my father.

Speaking of capstans, the Wavertree at South Street Seaport has a two speed capstan; rotated in one direction it’s high speed, in the other it’s low speed. She was built 20-30 years after the Great Clippers, and of course it may not be original to ship.

Like many modelers I eas once enamored with the Nelson Era Wooden Walls. Lately I have become more interested in what I’ll call the industrial era period, about 1850- 1920.

Roger

In preparation for building my Flying Cloud, I purchased the plans from A.J. Fisher which they still offer even though the model has long since been discontinued. The Fisher plans call for two single and two double action Capstans situated as you describe. As far as historic accuracy goes (with the Flying Cloud in particular) there are no extent early plans or lift model. The only contemporary eyewitness description being that of Duncan McClean for the Boston Atlas which has been offered on this log and is available through Lars Bruselius online. As for the rest a lot has been passed down from plans drawn after the fact and from model to model, the 1916 Horace Boucher model being the most well-known and used as a source for subsequent models. Rich Jones and Rob Wiederrich have done subsequent in-depth research into Donald McKay's clippers and were so good as to contribute their findings on this build log in a timely enough fashion to benefit my build historically. As to the actual number, types and positions of capstans on Flying Cloud, that remains up to logic and informed conjecture given the details of information surrounding comparable ships built by McKay in their proximity of time of construction and type. An accurate model of the ship remains an elusive objective.
The description being assembled by Rob, Rich and others is coming closer than any previous notions.
(I am content that my model, while modified to embrace some of the latest concepts, will remain far from the last or latest word.)

P.S. please post pictures of your father's model. I am sure I am not the only one anxious to see it!

Pete

 

[ClipperFan]

I have a model of Flying Cloud that my father built about 1945 from an AJ Fisher kit. It is unrigged as once the war ended he went on to build a full sized sailboat. About 2000 I received it from my sister poorly packed by the movers. I repaired the damage, freshened some paint, added stub masts and built a glass case. It has four capstans, a double on the focsle, a double on the main deck, and two singles on the poop. Although beautifully made, I don’t claim accuracy relative to you guys. Instead it’s simply a tribute to my father.

Speaking of capstans, the Wavertree at South Street Seaport has a two speed capstan; rotated in one direction it’s high speed, in the other it’s low speed. She was built 20-30 years after the Great Clippers, and of course it may not be original to ship.

Like many modelers I eas once enamored with the Nelson Era Wooden Walls. Lately I have become more interested in what I’ll call the industrial era period, about 1850- 1920.

Roger

Roger,
I've been looking at other McKay Clippers to learn the number of capstans installed on them. I can say that so far none of the early clippers I've read so have anywhere as near so many as the AJ Fisher plans call for. Both Boucher models feature three: one on the forecastle and two flanking on the fore poop deck. Without supporting documentation, even that is just speculative. Erring on the side of caution at over excess, my perogative would be to follow the example of McKay's first clipper Stag Hound. Much of the layout on Flying Cloud seems to match that of Stag Hound fairly closely including her longhouse abaft the foremast and a small central portico entrance to apartments below the aft poopdeck. Keep in mind, the dimensions of Flying Cloud are not much larger than Stag Hound either. Overall, she was just 10 feet longer. The biggest difference is in the most aggressive rake of Flying Cloud's prow and her 10 degree flatter floor profile. Stag Hound was launched December 1850; Flying Cloud in April, 1851 a mere 4 months later. McLean confirmed a presence of 2 capstans on Stag Hound. McLean makes no mention of them, so I would follow the example of Stag Hound and go with just 2.

 

[Peter Gutterman]

My t' gallant forecastle deck facade dry fitted in place. I 've used tiny bits of brass wire as door handles as opposed to knobs.

 

[rwiederrich]

Wonderful job, just wonderful.
Now, when you reread Duncan McLean’s description, It all becomes clear.

You’re the first to represent most accurately the true topgallant forecastle bulkhead on Flying Cloud.

Rob

 

[ClipperFan]

My t' gallant forecastle deck facade dry fitted in place. I 've usedView attachment 471954View attachment 471955View attachment 471956 tiny bits of brass wire as door handles as opposed to knobs.

Peter,
Wow! Now that I see it in place, this arrangement on the ship makes so much clear sense as opposed to a windlass literally stuffed into virtually unworkable conditions. Beautiful work, realistically accomplished. Now you just need to add a similar type of stern windows onto the aft poop deck bulkhead. That's if there's any room on either side of your portico to fit them. Once again, you're on the cutting-edge of accurate Flying Cloud design!

 

[Peter Gutterman]

Thanks as always to the usual suspects! I wanted to get at least this far with it before I go away for a few days to let the sound of the ocean wash the noise out of my brain!

Wonderful job, just wonderful.
Now, when you reread Duncan McLean’s description, It all becomes clear.

You’re the first to represent most accurately the true topgallant forecastle bulkhead on Flying Cloud.

Rob

Wow! High praise, indeed, considering the source! Really glad you like it! Your work lately has been an inspiration, and as I said, you set a high bar. I'm glad the motivation seems to be mutual. I feel like I have a lot catch up to do from what I've seen from your workshop of late.

Pete

Peter,
Wow! Now that I see it in place, this arrangement on the ship makes so much clear sense as opposed to a windlass literally stuffed into virtually unworkable conditions. Beautiful work, realistically accomplished. Now you just need to add a similar type of stern windows onto the aft poop deck bulkhead. That's if there's any room on either side of your portico to fit them. Once again, you're on the cutting-edge of accurate Flying Cloud design!

I think the windows on either side of the portico are a can do. If you make sketches for ROB'S Staghound, I can follow those as well.

 

[ClipperFan]

Thanks as always to the usual suspects! I wanted to get at least this far with it before I go away for a few days to let the sound of the ocean wash the noise out of my brain!

Wow! High praise, indeed, considering the source! Really glad you like it! Your work lately has been an inspiration, and as I said, you set a high bar. I'm glad the motivation seems to be mutual. I feel like I have a lot catch up to do from what I've seen from your workshop of late.

Pete

I think the windows on either side of the portico are a can do. If you make sketches for ROB'S Staghound, I can follow those as well.

Peter,
I'm delayed a bit on producing finished aft poop deck bulkhead illustration. I'll share what I've done so far. The two first sketches are on back of an envelope to work out dimensions. I'm not positive but it might have been done in 1:96th scale. The cleaner halves are actually one side which I reversed. This is 1:48th scale and is a full sketch but one side is done further than the other. Since the portico on Stag Hound is 8 feet wide and her great room is 13 feet wide, that leaves 5 feet split in half or 2 & 1/2 feet on each side of the portico. Since McLean gave the Captain's Cabin dimensions as 12 feet wide × 18 feet deep, that makes her rear poop deck 37 feet wide. Each side is -4 feet for half of the portico, leaving 14 & 1/2 feet. I used 2 & 3/4ths outer panels with triple 3 foot window spaces. Between each panel and window space are 6 inch wide pillars. Bulkhead is 5 feet high with molded base and deck top. Since your portico is wider, I'd use narrower windows, maybe 1 & 1/2 foot wide. Just having aft poop deck bulkead windows will make your Flying Cloud a more accurate model.
I noticed that windows on the larger half sketches are lower. That's due to the fact that Duncan McLean lists the lower apartment height as 6 foot 8 inches high, even though they're set 3 feet below a 5 foot high bulkhead. No sense putting widows above a ceiling.

 

[Peter Gutterman]

Just got back from the beach.
Finished reading "Flying Cloud and the Woman who Guided Her". This dynamic recounting of her maiden voyage gives me a whole new dimension on the model I'm building. I'll be seeing her in a whole new light whenever I approach it. And have a whole new respect for the people who sailed in her. This book is a must read for anyone wanting to model her. She comes alive in a surprisingly dramatic way. Thanks for sharing your drawings I eagerly look forward to fabricating and including them.

Pete

 

[ClipperFan]

Just got back from the beach.
Finished reading "Flying Cloud and the Woman who Guided Her". This dynamic recounting of her maiden voyage gives me a whole new dimension on the model I'm building. I'll be seeing her in a whole new light whenever I approach it. And have a whole new respect for the people who sailed in her. This book is a must read for anyone wanting to model her. She comes alive in a surprisingly dramatic way. Thanks for sharing your drawings I eagerly look forward to fabricating and including them.

Pete

Peter,
I remember reading the exploits of Captain Creesy and his brilliant navigator-wife in that same book. What amazed me is how often they sailed with damaged or disabled masts and yards. Can you just imagine the even shorter record-breaking passage they could have accomplished if they had managed to sail with intact gear?
I too have an even greater appreciation of the true design of Flying Cloud now that we're being able to more accurately reconstruct her real appearance. I'm racing to get my 2nd NRJ article ready for October 1st submission. Now that we're learning even more details about McKay's forecastle crew accommodations I will be working on a 3rd article covering our discoveries about her and subsequent McKay clippers with the same forward accomodations.

 

[Peter Gutterman]

All that damage, repairs on the fly (literally) a cracked mainmast and sprung main top, broken and toppled t'gallant pole masts and spars, shredded rigging and sails, with no casualties or fatalities. Plus, attempted sabotage by two disgruntled crewmen, as well as having to backtrack repeatedly to avoid crashing into the cliffs of Cape San Diego! Still, the ship travelled faster than the eighteen knots that the knot line could indicate! A world record of 340 statute miles in one day, noon to noon.

I'm thinking of omitting the companion way hatch and cover between the portico and the weather deck capstan. The Crothers diagram omits it altogether and neither the David Shaw book nor Duncan McClean make any mention of it. " In front of the poop is a small portico, which protects the entrance to the cabins," [McClean] This suggests that the entry to the cabins below the poop were accessed through doors in the portico, omitting the need for a companionway crammed between the portico and the capstan in a high foot traffic area. It would also allow more room for easier access to the capstan bars, as well as the pumps and the fife rails surrounding the main mast. there is a large cargo hatch between the foremast and the main deck house. The two single action capstans on the poop deck P. and S. just behind and either side of the portico would be useful when backing the ship from the pier in New York, as described in Shaw's book, although neither McClean nor Shaw mention them specifically and Crothers does not show them. Early drawn plans do show them. Shaw does describe the use of a windlass, which may be based on long held supposition.
Thoughts?

 

[rwiederrich]

Just got back from the beach.
Finished reading "Flying Cloud and the Woman who Guided Her". This dynamic recounting of her maiden voyage gives me a whole new dimension on the model I'm building. I'll be seeing her in a whole new light whenever I approach it. And have a whole new respect for the people who sailed in her. This book is a must read for anyone wanting to model her. She comes alive in a surprisingly dramatic way. Thanks for sharing your drawings I eagerly look forward to fabricating and including them.

Pete

I knew you'd love it. I read it several years ago myself. What an adventure! I agree....it is a must read if you plan on building her.

Rob

 

[rwiederrich]

Shaw does describe the use of a windlass, which may be based on long held supposition.
Thoughts?

The windless was nearly always used for anchor evolutions. Crothers, Shaw, Chapelle, all had to draw from the same eyewitness accounts from Duncan McLean. And any other diary entry made by captain, crew or passenger. They can't make up their own facts. Supposition, as you suggest might be the best explanation.

As Rich has pointed out previously. Flying Cloud followed so closely on the heals of Staghound that it is not a stretch to conclude she had more in common with Staghounds deck plan than any other.

Rob

 

[ClipperFan]

All that damage, repairs on the fly (literally) a cracked mainmast and sprung main top, broken and toppled t'gallant pole masts and spars, shredded rigging and sails, with no casualties or fatalities. Plus, attempted sabotage by two disgruntled crewmen, as well as having to backtrack repeatedly to avoid crashing into the cliffs of Cape San Diego! Still, the ship travelled faster than the eighteen knots that the knot line could indicate! A world record of 340 statute miles in one day, noon to noon.

I'm thinking of omitting the companion way hatch and cover between the portico and the weather deck capstan. The Crothers diagram omits it altogether and neither the David Shaw book nor Duncan McClean make any mention of it. " In front of the poop is a small portico, which protects the entrance to the cabins," [McClean] This suggests that the entry to the cabins below the poop were accessed through doors in the portico, omitting the need for a companionway crammed between the portico and the capstan in a high foot traffic area. It would also allow more room for easier access to the capstan bars, as well as the pumps and the fife rails surrounding the main mast. there is a large cargo hatch between the foremast and the main deck house. The two single action capstans on the poop deck P. and S. just behind and either side of the portico would be useful when backing the ship from the pier in New York, as described in Shaw's book, although neither McClean nor Shaw mention them specifically and Crothers does not show them. Early drawn plans do show them. Shaw does describe the use of a windlass, which may be based on long held supposition.
Thoughts?

Peter,
Counting capstans, if you include the one on the forecastle, the one abaft the main fife rail plus two additional on her poop deck, you end up with four. For McKay's second California Fleet Clipper it strike's me as overkill. I would eliminate the one abaft the main fife rail and put your companion there. The portico might have been exclusive entrance to command staff quarters, so crewmen would still need a midship entrance to below. I still wonder where the idea of dual poopdeck capstans originated from.

 

[Peter Gutterman]

In Crother's 150 or so diagrams of clipper deck arrangements little more than a dozen specifically show anchor windlasses and are specifically labeled as such. Only one indicates a windlass below the weather deck, none are indicated below forecastle decks, including "Young America". Although Ed Tosti's exhaustive study of that ship includes an anchor windlass below the forecastle deck. So Crother's diagrams are not he last word. Crother's book indicates an anchor windlass below the weather deck on "Great Republic", a McKay clipper, so that's another anomaly. Wherever Crothers shows a windlass he's very specific about it, labeling it as such. It still doesn't confirm that they didn't exist on other clippers under the fore castle deck such as on "Young America."
The "Flying Cloud" diagram is very clear concerning having no hatch with a companion way cover between the capstan and the portico, nor is it mentioned elsewhere that I know of in the contemporary record, so I'm leaving it off. If anyone is aware of conclusive evidence to the contrary, please let me know. Presented with similar reasoning and corroborating evidence I plan to proceed with my forecastle and poop deck and bulkhead arrangements as suggested by Rob Wiederrich and Rich Jones.

Peter,
Counting capstans, if you include the one on the forecastle, the one abaft the main fife rail plus two additional on her poop deck, you end up with four. For McKay's second California Fleet Clipper it strike's me as overkill. I would eliminate the one abaft the main fife rail and put your companion there. The portico might have been exclusive entrance to command staff quarters, so crewmen would still need a midship entrance to below. I still wonder where the idea of dual poopdeck capstans originated from.

Do you guys know conclusively and/or with any surety what the capstan arrangements were like on "Staghound" and "Flying Fish"? Crothers shows two capstans on each, one on the fore castle deck and one well aft, before the poop deck. On "Flying Cloud it is the same, with none on the poop deck.
(Capstan chess or checkers ).

Pete

 

[rwiederrich]

Crother's book indicates an anchor windlass below the weather deck on "Great Republic", a McKay clipper, so that's another anomaly.

Great Republic had a flush weather deck....NO forecastle deck. So her windless was on the second deck below. Not unusual for this particular vessel. She also was the first clipper to carry a steam donkey engine in her aft room of her main cabin....plus six deck spider winches. No other clipper had been furnished these.

Great Republic was a very special McKay vessel.....in every regard.

Rob

 

[The Gavel]

Pete! I love what you're doing with your ship! Keep up the great work! I hope you and your love enjoyed your beach time.

Many blessings.
Chuck

 

[ClipperFan]

In Crother's 150 or so diagrams of clipper deck arrangements little more than a dozen specifically show anchor windlasses and are specifically labeled as such. Only one indicates a windlass below the weather deck, none are indicated below forecastle decks, including "Young America". Although Ed Tosti's exhaustive study of that ship includes an anchor windlass below the forecastle deck. So Crother's diagrams are not he last word. Crother's book indicates an anchor windlass below the weather deck on "Great Republic", a McKay clipper, so that's another anomaly. Wherever Crothers shows a windlass he's very specific about it, labeling it as such. It still doesn't confirm that they didn't exist on other clippers under the fore castle deck such as on "Young America."
The "Flying Cloud" diagram is very clear concerning having no hatch with a companion way cover between the capstan and the portico, nor is it mentioned elsewhere that I know of in the contemporary record, so I'm leaving it off. If anyone is aware of conclusive evidence to the contrary, please let me know. Presented with similar reasoning and corroborating evidence I plan to proceed with my forecastle and poop deck and bulkhead arrangements as suggested by Rob Wiederrich and Rich Jones.

Do you guys know conclusively and/or with any surety what the capstan arrangements were like on "Staghound" and "Flying Fish"? Crothers shows two capstans on each, one on the fore castle deck and one well aft, before the poop deck. On "Flying Cloud it is the same, with none on the poop deck.
(Capstan chess or checkers ).

Pete

Peter,
With Duncan McLean you sometimes get very specific details and other times, certain items aren't mentioned at all. Flying Cloud gets no mention of capstans at all. You would think if she had dual poop deck capstans, that would have deserved a mention. In the case of McKay's 4th clipper and third of the California Clipper Fleet, Flying Fish (#3 Staffordshire was intended for the Atlantic packet trade) he gave precise descriptions: one capstan installed on her forecastle and the other on her quarterdeck. Here's an excerpt from the November 4th, 1851 Boston Daily Atlas article with conclusive proof:

 

[Peter Gutterman]

Peter,
I'm delayed a bit on producing finished aft poop deck bulkhead illustration. I'll share what I've done so far. The two first sketches are on back of an envelope to work out dimensions. I'm not positive but it might have been done in 1:96th scale. The cleaner halves are actually one side which I reversed. This is 1:48th scale and is a full sketch but one side is done further than the other. Since the portico on Stag Hound is 8 feet wide and her great room is 13 feet wide, that leaves 5 feet split in half or 2 & 1/2 feet on each side of the portico. Since McLean gave the Captain's Cabin dimensions as 12 feet wide × 18 feet deep, that makes her rear poop deck 37 feet wide. Each side is -4 feet for half of the portico, leaving 14 & 1/2 feet. I used 2 & 3/4ths outer panels with triple 3 foot window spaces. Between each panel and window space are 6 inch wide pillars. Bulkhead is 5 feet high with molded base and deck top. Since your portico is wider, I'd use narrower windows, maybe 1 & 1/2 foot wide. Just having aft poop deck bulkead windows will make your Flying Cloud a more accurate model.
I noticed that windows on the larger half sketches are lower. That's due to the fact that Duncan McLean lists the lower apartment height as 6 foot 8 inches high, even though they're set 3 feet below a 5 foot high bulkhead. No sense putting widows above a ceiling.

View attachment 472111

View attachment 472112

View attachment 472113

View attachment 472114

Re. The windows to either side of the portico. Since that area is subject to some battering in high seas would windows in such a vulnerable area have had sliding or folding shutters? or possibly iron or bronze protective bars?
Thoughts (Do you often make sketches on used envelopes or cocktail napkins? )