Fully functional realistic mini canons

[Balac]

Not over heat----that would take a tungsten wire instead---I want to cut the wire with a dikes and maybe file the ends so I get a spark. A Spark is a lot hotter then just a resistance wire and will not use much energy to set off the charge. Like I said before I recommend the spark to initiate silver fulminate but if you want you can try to get the black powder to go with a spark if you like to experiment.
My feeling is that the black powder will not explode all the time with just a spark, that is why I advocate using a cap material.

 

[PT-2]

Not over heat----that would take a tungsten wire instead---I want to cut the wire with a dikes and maybe file the ends so I get a spark. A Spark is a lot hotter then just a resistance wire and will not use much energy to set off the charge. Like I said before I recommend the spark to initiate silver fulminate but if you want you can try to get the black powder to go with a spark if you like to experiment.
My feeling is that the black powder will not explode all the time with just a spark, that is why I advocate using a cap material.

I will talk with the black powder shooters in our gun club for their additional thoughts. It is the journey and not the destination where we spend most of our time in these types of endeavors. PT-2

 

[Balac]

I have a BS in Chemistry and an MS in physics but more opinions are always a good idea.
P.S. I worked in Detonation Physics with the Navy and black powder is not a detonation, it is an explosion otherwise known as a rapid burning.

 

[PT-2]

I have a BS in Chemistry and an MS in physics but more opinions are always a good idea.
P.S. I worked in Detonation Physics with the Navy and black powder is not a detonation, it is an explosion otherwise known as a rapid burning.

You clearly have the background to know they physics of how this will work or not work. I am just stepping onto a trail in dusk so more information will keep me better informed where I am and going before I trip along the way. I wonder where shotgun propellant falls in this spectrum of "powders"? Thanks. PT-2

 

[Balac]

You clearly have the background to know they physics of how this will work or not work. I am just stepping onto a trail in dusk so more information will keep me better informed where I am and going before I trip along the way. I wonder where shotgun propellant falls in this spectrum of "powders"? Thanks. PT-2

I bought a 209 primer and am having trouble getting it open. It is a CCI magnum shotgun primer and it is colored copper on the outside but steel under the coating. It does not want to open up much with dikes and tried drilling by hand but that does not work since a did not want to try with a power drill. I poked a hole in the fire end with the hand drill but no powder came out. Still working on it.

But I found a diagram of a mussel loader and they use a primer which flashes into a chamber and then through a .028 hole to ignite the black powder. I have some 26 gauge coated wire I can send you if you want to try it in your fuse hole. all you have to do it scrape off a tiny bit of the coating at the ignition end (like 1/16") and stick it in the fuse hole and scrape the other end clean and connect to a power cord with the other side of the cord connected to the cannon. That way the electric power will be shorted when you connect the cord to the wall socket and you will get a big spark at both ends. Inside the fuse hole and at the end connected to the cannon. It will probably blow your house hold line fuse because you are shorting the electric circuit. But it might ignite the black powder with the spark. That way you can use your existing fuse hole.

Mussel loader expansion chamber diagram and drill for the hole.

EEZY-BREECH BREECH Plug Cleaner

http://www.plugcleaner.com/images/Instructions-Rev-81514-EEZY-BREECH-web.pdf

 

[PT-2]

I bought a 209 primer and am having trouble getting it open. It is a CCI magnum shotgun primer and it is colored copper on the outside but steel under the coating. It does not want to open up much with dikes and tried drilling by hand but that does not work since a did not want to try with a power drill. I poked a hole in the fire end with the hand drill but no powder came out. Still working on it.

But I found a diagram of a mussel loader and they use a primer which flashes into a chamber and then through a .028 hole to ignite the black powder. I have some 26 gauge coated wire I can send you if you want to try it in your fuse hole. all you have to do it scrape off a tiny bit of the coating at the ignition end (like 1/16") and stick it in the fuse hole and scrape the other end clean and connect to a power cord with the other side of the cord connected to the cannon. That way the electric power will be shorted when you connect the cord to the wall socket and you will get a big spark at both ends. Inside the fuse hole and at the end connected to the cannon. It will probably blow your house hold line fuse because you are shorting the electric circuit. But it might ignite the black powder with the spark. That way you can use your existing fuse hole.

Mussel loader expansion chamber diagram and drill for the hole.

EEZY-BREECH BREECH Plug Cleaner

http://www.plugcleaner.com/images/Instructions-Rev-81514-EEZY-BREECH-web.pdf

The rifle primers that I have/use are Federal 210M Match Large Rifle Primers. I think that I may have some shotgun reloading primers in the garage with that reloading stuff but I would have to look. The primer hole ream that I use for my 30-30 is too large for the cannon. Thanks for the link to the shotgun primer tool. I'll be asking the blackpowder shooters I our gun club but have not done so yet. Some of those use caps and others flint. . . both creating the ignition spark.

Thanks for your offer of 26 ga. wire to assist in igniting our house electrical system. I see that by AWG #26 is 0.0159 inches. I have stripped open various wires to see the strands for other purposes and may be able to use some of that or a solid wire of the correct size from a local shop and not create a mailing expense for you.

I have not been spending time on this but working on a 17-inch canoe and my Bluenose build in the early stages. I may take a break though to draw up the carriage to cut it out for an additional distraction.
Thanks for keeping me in mind. When something goes bang I'll let you know. PT-2

 

[Balac]

The rifle primers that I have/use are Federal 210M Match Large Rifle Primers. I think that I may have some shotgun reloading primers in the garage with that reloading stuff but I would have to look. The primer hole ream that I use for my 30-30 is too large for the cannon. Thanks for the link to the shotgun primer tool. I'll be asking the blackpowder shooters I our gun club but have not done so yet. Some of those use caps and others flint. . . both creating the ignition spark.

Thanks for your offer of 26 ga. wire to assist in igniting our house electrical system. I see that by AWG #26 is 0.0159 inches. I have stripped open various wires to see the strands for other purposes and may be able to use some of that or a solid wire of the correct size from a local shop and not create a mailing expense for you.

I have not been spending time on this but working on a 17-inch canoe and my Bluenose build in the early stages. I may take a break though to draw up the carriage to cut it out for an additional distraction.
Thanks for keeping me in mind. When something goes bang I'll let you know. PT-2

I tried opening up the case of the 209 with a dremel disk abrader but it ignited the charge and it blew up. I used a dremel that had a problem with the speed adjust and was on high all the time. I will try one that is slower next time. It appears that there is another smaller cap inside the 209, onhe that is used on the nipple of a muzzel loader. The Fulminate in there is a solid and will have to be abraded to make it powder again so besides getting it out of the case we have to sand it and not blow it up. Might not be a viable solution. Might have to make it from start or try and initiate the black powder with a house hold electric spark. I am researching electric switches and will let you know if I find one that will work and break the current before it flips the house breaker.
Thanks, and remember if you use electric to spark the charge across the cannon body then the entire cannon will be energized until the circuit is broken. That means no metal touching the cannon. If 2 intertwined enameled wires like I offered then the spark will only be at the ends of the wire.
Good luck with the building and with the Muzzel loaders.

 

[Balac]

OK update on the 209 cap and percussion cap #11
A ground off the steel lip on the 209 and then spent a couple hours with a file and opened up the case which I will get a pic of whenever I get a battery for my camera. But I got the internal cap out of the steel 209 container and it is larger than the Remmingtom #11 mussel loader cap by about 120%.
I bought a dremel engraving cutter which is about a 1/16 inch flat cutter (ie no point on the end) and used a dremel on very slow setting and ground out the #11 cap fulminate charge with no problem. It turned out to have a rubber like cover over the fulminate but the fulminate is an a powder. I ordered some micro drills and when they come I will drill some holes and see how we can fill it for various sizes of initiate wire diameters.
We are making progress as now we can get some powder out for the black powder charge initiation. I will grind up some Black powder and see is I can make a micro fuse next. I bought a pedestal and mortar for grinding up the Black Powder into fine particles.
Later friends

 

[PT-2]

OK update on the 209 cap and percussion cap #11
A ground off the steel lip on the 209 and then spent a couple hours with a file and opened up the case which I will get a pic of whenever I get a battery for my camera. But I got the internal cap out of the steel 209 container and it is larger than the Remmingtom #11 mussel loader cap by about 120%.
I bought a dremel engraving cutter which is about a 1/16 inch flat cutter (ie no point on the end) and used a dremel on very slow setting and ground out the #11 cap fulminate charge with no problem. It turned out to have a rubber like cover over the fulminate but the fulminate is an a powder. I ordered some micro drills and when they come I will drill some holes and see how we can fill it for various sizes of initiate wire diameters.
We are making progress as now we can get some powder out for the black powder charge initiation. I will grind up some Black powder and see is I can make a micro fuse next. I bought a pedestal and mortar for grinding up the Black Powder into fine particles.
Later friends

A second pucker factor to your own is a hang fire waiting to go off and having to hang back for any delayed reaction. . . then worming out the ball and charge. PT-2

 

[Balac]

A second pucker factor to your own is a hang fire waiting to go off and having to hang back for any delayed reaction. . . then worming out the ball and charge. PT-2

I am trying it to make it to be very rare if not never to have a hang fire. Let alone try and make a 0.25 inch ball extractor. That would be real problematic although I have a blacksmith buddy that might want to try that; Good Idea! I crushed up some black powder and painted it onto a Kleenex sheet and waiting for it to dry now. I have hopes that it might work as a slow fuse but thinking that you still need a fulminate initiation.

 

[PT-2]

I am trying it to make it to be very rare if not never to have a hang fire. Let alone try and make a 0.25 inch ball extractor. That would be real problematic although I have a blacksmith buddy that might want to try that; Good Idea! I crushed up some black powder and painted it onto a Kleenex sheet and waiting for it to dry now. I have hopes that it might work as a slow fuse but thinking that you still need a fulminate initiation.

I cheated and ordered some fireworks fuse from a place in Montana. It is 7/64 inch diameter which is larger that I would like and have not decided whether to have the ignition hole drilled larger or not. It would be out of scale but result in a salute cannon.

 

[Balac]

I cheated and ordered some fireworks fuse from a place in Montana. It is 7/64 inch diameter which is larger that I would like and have not decided whether to have the ignition hole drilled larger or not. It would be out of scale but result in a salute cannon.

I lit off the powdered tissue paper and it burned like the fuse you need and it was about 1/32nd diameter twisted up but it needs to be rolled up to make a good fuse. It burnt sporadically, some times fast and sometimes slow. If it was rolled up it would not have that problem but I know of no way to roll up the tiny tissue paper up. I used to roll my own cigarettes and had a roller for that. Maybe something like that might be able to be modified to roll the impregnated tissue. That Is all I could come up with for now.

 

[PT-2]

I lit off the powdered tissue paper and it burned like the fuse you need and it was about 1/32nd diameter twisted up but it needs to be rolled up to make a good fuse. It burnt sporadically, some times fast and sometimes slow. If it was rolled up it would not have that problem but I know of no way to roll up the tiny tissue paper up. I used to roll my own cigarettes and had a roller for that. Maybe something like that might be able to be modified to roll the impregnated tissue. That Is all I could come up with for now.

I wonder if a very small brass rod 0.020 or .51 mm would provided a core to start the roll and continue until a desired diameter is attained. When dry the rod could be pulled out. I understand the sporadic nature of your burn depending upon the concentration of powder that was placed on the tissue paper. Working as a wrangle when young in Montana the smokers would role theirs while riding on horseback reins in one hand and the cig coming forth in the other. PT-2

 

[Balac]

I wonder if a very small brass rod 0.020 or .51 mm would provided a core to start the roll and continue until a desired diameter is attained. When dry the rod could be pulled out. I understand the sporadic nature of your burn depending upon the concentration of powder that was placed on the tissue paper. Working as a wrangle when young in Montana the smokers would role theirs while riding on horseback reins in one hand and the cig coming forth in the other. PT-2

I tried to roll a tissue with a #26 copper wire inside but that did not work. I tried cutting the cigarette roller blanket and tape it back together but that did not work as the blankets tape sticks to the rollers and can not get it small enough. Lastly I used a knife to cut a 1 16th line on a partially dried tissue and then turn the 1 16 over with a knife until I had used up all the material which was about 6 six times. Then I twisted it with my fingers and got a 1-16th twisted cord which I am letting dry but it looks good. I want to wait to get my camera working to take some video of the burn but I think this will work fine for a fuse. But you will still need the fulminate to initiate the black powder I think. I will try making a little cannon to experiment with the fuse and the fulminate and the black powder.

 

[PT-2]

I tried to roll a tissue with a #26 copper wire inside but that did not work. I tried cutting the cigarette roller blanket and tape it back together but that did not work as the blankets tape sticks to the rollers and can not get it small enough. Lastly I used a knife to cut a 1 16th line on a partially dried tissue and then turn the 1 16 over with a knife until I had used up all the material which was about 6 six times. Then I twisted it with my fingers and got a 1-16th twisted cord which I am letting dry but it looks good. I want to wait to get my camera working to take some video of the burn but I think this will work fine for a fuse. But you will still need the fulminate to initiate the black powder I think. I will try making a little cannon to experiment with the fuse and the fulminate and the black powder.

Sounds like you are enjoying the experimentation. You must have a metal lathe to turn a barrel. What size do you anticipate and caliber of bore? PT-2

 

[Balac]

Sounds like you are enjoying the experimentation. You must have a metal lathe to turn a barrel. What size do you anticipate and caliber of bore? PT-2

I am going to use a 1-4 brass tube and drill a 1-16 hole 1-4 in from an end and cap the end with a glued wood plug then put some blak powder in the bore and a tissue patch and light off a fuse and see if we get a combustion. If I do not I will solder a 1-16 brass tune onto the initiation hole and full that with fulminate and light off a fuse to initiate the fulminate and see if that works. I am going to try to find my camera battery charger now. Later PT-2

 

[PT-2]

I am going to use a 1-4 brass tube and drill a 1-16 hole 1-4 in from an end and cap the end with a glued wood plug then put some blak powder in the bore and a tissue patch and light off a fuse and see if we get a combustion. If I do not I will solder a 1-16 brass tune onto the initiation hole and full that with fulminate and light off a fuse to initiate the fulminate and see if that works. I am going to try to find my camera battery charger now. Later PT-2

Since this will be an experiment for ignition only, you could get around the chanced of a wood breech piece glued in and bend the end of the 1/4 inch over tightly. Soldering that folded end would be an option. Without trunions are you going to place it in a vise? I am looking forward to your photos of the trial. PT-2

 

[pebbleworm]

Black powder is pretty wimpy stuff compared to hypergolic rocket propellants. Here is a very well written and entertaining book by a chemist who worked on store-able liquid rocket propellants:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/ignition.pdf

It is a lot of fun to read, but a properly metered 2 component charge for a scale cannon would be tricky indeed. The RC Combat folks usually use compressed air, but they have done some hard thinking to come up with working systems:

Model warship combat - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[PT-2]

Black powder is pretty wimpy stuff compared to hypergolic rocket propellants. Here is a very well written and entertaining book by a chemist who worked on store-able liquid rocket propellants:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/books/ignition.pdf

It is a lot of fun to read, but a properly metered 2 component charge for a scale cannon would be tricky indeed. The RC Combat folks usually use compressed air, but they have done some hard thinking to come up with working systems:

Model warship combat - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Rockets and small scale cannons are far apart in the spectrum of Boom or Swoosh!!! Back in the late 50's I used to build rockets with powdered zinc and Sulphur well but carefully mixed and placed the tubular rocket body, lit off with firecracker fuses. They would take off so fast and burn out so quickly that they usually could not be visually tracked. If landing in dry grass or brushy areas they were a fire hazard. I recall that there were a number of accidents with that type of rocket, exploding with shrapnel everywhere. Commercial rocket engines are a totally different item these days. PT-2

 

[Balac]

Lit off 1-16th inch fuse and it burnt out at the entrance hole to the cannon and did not ignite the black powder. Will try a fulminate packed 1-16th combustion chamber tomorrow maybe if I can get it soldered. no pics because no battery charger.