HIGH HOPES, WILD MEN AND THE DEVIL’S JAW - Willem Barentsz Kolderstok 1:50

Heinrich said:
And what is more - compared to the East Indian voyages, the trips were relatively uneventful. Never once is it mentioned that they got into trouble on the open seas. The actual journals are actually quite boring, because it was so uneventful. According to Ab Hoving, these ships had better sailing characteristics than their 17th century counterparts where everything was geared towards load carrying. At a max sailing speed of 8 knots, they were faster than the big retour ships (5 knots) could cope (with full sails) with a wind factor of 5 on the Beaufort Scale and provided that they were properly ballasted, were remarkably stable. Dr. T.H. Beke in his analysis of De Veer's and Linschoten's journals, surmised that at one stage Barentsz covered 1700 nautical miles in a period of 25 days - and that with the fishing smack in tow!
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Hi Heinrich,

Very interesting the later ships were less sea worthy, though more profitable I guess.

Cheers,
Stephen.
 
Stevedownunder said:
Hi Heinrich,

Very interesting the later ships were less sea worthy, though more profitable I guess.

Cheers,
Stephen.
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Hi Stephen. It's a difficult one to call as the conditions were very different. The route around the infamous Cape of Storms alone, claimed so many victims while the 6-month long voyages obviously exerted huge wear and tear on both crews and ships. But, what is a fact that the small size of the WB did not preclude her from being an effective sea-ship.
 
Seeing that I have mentioned how markedly the hull shape of the sixteenth century Dutch ships differed from their 17th century counterparts, I thought I would illustrate it as follows:

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The green line represents the deck height or level, while the red line indicates the widest point of the ship. The drawing on the right taken from the late 17th century Witsen pinas, shows the deck level and the widest point to coincide for all practical purposes. However on the left the widest point of the hull is considerably lower the level of the deck as was the case with Barentsz's ship.

From another angle:

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Look at the largely rectangular hull shape of the 17th century vessels - all in the quest for loading capacity. Compare that to the streamlined teardrop hull of the sixteenth century vessels. No prizes for guessing which one was the more effective of the two designs from a sailing characteristics point of view.

The illustrations are taken from the book: Het Schip van Willem Barentsz by Ab Hoving & Kie.
 
Some time ago there was some light-hearted discussion about the legend of the Flying Dutchman and @Kolderstok Hans even mentioned that his son suggested it would be a good idea for Kolderstok to produce such a ship. This made me delve into the history books and look what I found:

From the VOC Site:

Skipper Barend Fokkesz. is a famous personality. The Frisian rented himself with his ship - De Snoeper (a Dutch galjoot) - to the VOC. The sailor is known for continuing to sail with full sails in any type of weather. To prevent his masts from breaking off, he had reinforced the masts with iron rods. As a result, he made the trip to the Indies in record time * in 1678. That record earned him a statue on the island of Kuiper near Batavia, which was unfortunately destroyed by the English in 1808.

The fast journey of Barend Fokkesz. was one of the breeding grounds for the legend of the Flying Dutchman. After all, there had to be supernatural powers at play. If you want to know more about this, we refer to the book by Graddy Boven.

* The trip was completed in only 158 days which included a 9-day stopover at the Cape of Good Hope. The trip was particularly documented as a result of stamped and dated letters that the ship was carrying - clearly stipulating departure and arrival dates.

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The galjoot was normally called a one-and-a-half-master, but there were also bigger. more rugged versions with 3 masts - such as De Snoeper. So there you go Hans, I even have a name for you.
 
You are right Peter. The VOC site says they were getuigd (rigged) like the Fluit was, but the site compares the hull of the galjoot to that of the Boeier. Be that as it may, she was apparently fast.
 
Heinrich said:
Some time ago there was some light-hearted discussion about the legend of the Flying Dutchman and @Kolderstok Hans even mentioned that his son suggested it would be a good idea for Kolderstok to produce such a ship. This made me delve into the history books and look what I found:

From the VOC Site:

Skipper Barend Fokkesz. is a famous personality. The Frisian rented himself with his ship - De Snoeper (a Dutch galjoot) - to the VOC. The sailor is known for continuing to sail with full sails in any type of weather. To prevent his masts from breaking off, he had reinforced the masts with iron rods. As a result, he made the trip to the Indies in record time * in 1678. That record earned him a statue on the island of Kuiper near Batavia, which was unfortunately destroyed by the English in 1808.

The fast journey of Barend Fokkesz. was one of the breeding grounds for the legend of the Flying Dutchman. After all, there had to be supernatural powers at play. If you want to know more about this, we refer to the book by Graddy Boven.

* The trip was completed in only 158 days which included a 9-day stopover at the Cape of Good Hope. The trip was particularly documented as a result of stamped and dated letters that the ship was carrying - clearly stipulating departure and arrival dates.

View attachment 310502
View attachment 310503
The galjoot was normally called a one-and-a-half-master, but there were also bigger. more rugged versions with 3 masts - such as De Snoeper. So there you go Hans, I even have a name for you.
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The story of the flying Dutchman is a nice one, although it is complete fiction. What you describe here is only a part of the story, and not the main part of it.

The flying Dutchman is all about the following (from the Dutch wikipedia):
It is said that the skipper of "de vliegende Hollander" was a man named Willem van der Decken.
Wikipedia says:
Willem van der Decken is, in all likelihood, a fictional character who is widely known as the cursed captain of The Flying Dutchman, the ship he sailed into a storm near the Cape of Good Hope. According to one version of the story, he made this decision on Good Friday 1676 after it had already been storming for several weeks.

Van der Decken became known through the nineteenth-century novel The Ghost Ship The Flying Dutchman by the English writer Frederick Marryat. In the book, a house on the Havenstraat in Terneuzen is designated as the home where captain van der Decken lived with his wife Catherina and son Philip. According to the author, a few years after Van der Decken's departure the family had to move due to poverty to just outside the town. There they moved into a small colourful house. Marryat also mentions a building on the Noordstraat where Van der Decken was said to have been born.

According to historians, Van der Decken is based on Bernard Fokke, a VOC captain who drove his crew to extremes in order to reach a destination at great speed. He was therefore described as a tyrant. Falkenberg's name is also mentioned among sailors as a possible captain of the ship. In Washington Irving's book The Flying Dutchman on Tapas Sea he is called Rambout van Dam. In many books, the name Van der Decken is mostly used, sometimes written together (VanderDecken).

The following quote is in fact the base for the story of the Vliegende Hollander. As said - it had been storming for several days and Van der Decken was eager to sail. He got upset he could not go, and this made him so angry that he shouted:

"Storm or no storm, Easter or no Easter, I will sail, even if it is for eternity!"

Promptly the storm subsided. The devil then appeared before him and said that he would indeed sail for eternity, whereupon the storm rose again in all its anger. But van der Decken could sail - with rounded sails, and against the wind. In the following years the crew died one by one, except Van der Decken who was left alone at the helm to sail the world seas, for eternity.
Every now and then (even up to nowadays) the flying Dutchman is seen, with blood red sails, rounded, sailing against the wind, floating above the water*

The Scheepvaartmuseum in Amsterdam has also written a piece about the Vliegende Hollander (which is slightly different - but the same story):

God or the devil
It was the seventeenth century when Willem van der Decken left Holland on Easter Sunday, bound for Asia. A blasphemous fact; working on a Christian holiday. That was acting like the devil! Everything had to make way for a quick crossing to Asia. The fastest route to Asia was around the Cape of Good Hope. To the south of Africa, the weather got worse and worse, but Van der Decken insisted: he must and will set sail. He did so in order not to hinder the trade and to pocket the money that could be earned. His crew begs him to wait out in the open for another day, but Van der Decken does not want to hear about it and even throws his helmsman overboard. He spoke the words: "God or the devil, I will sail around that Cape! If I have to sail until the last judgement".

These sounds came to the devil's ears. If this was what Van der Decken wanted, he could have it. The devil took over the ship from the sinful captain and made the ship sail around in circles for all eternity. The ship became a true ghost ship, able to do things that a normal ship could never do. Like sailing against the wind. The colours of the sails changed to blood red and often the ship was seen 'floating' 'above' the waves, where a normal ship makes its passage through the water. The crew members became the living dead: the ship was possessed by the devil from that Easter Sunday onwards and was popularly called a ghost ship that was still often seen on the horizon. There are even people from the 1990s (yes, our 1990s) who claim to have seen the ship.*

*My vision on this:
This is quite usual: when it has been a hot day the layer of air above the water often causes a mirage, where you can see objects at a far distance (often beyond the horizon) and floating above the visible water. Combined with the evening sun which causes orange red skies a passing sailing ship could in this way be seen as floating and with orange red sails.
You just need the right circumstances and a sailing ship (yes - they still excist) passing by.

Hans
 
Kolderstok said:
The story of the flying Dutchman is a nice one, although it is complete fiction. What you describe here is only a part of the story, and not the main part of it.

The flying Dutchman is all about the following (from the Dutch wikipedia):
It is said that the skipper of "de vliegende Hollander" was a man named Willem van der Decken.
Wikipedia says:
Willem van der Decken is, in all likelihood, a fictional character who is widely known as the cursed captain of The Flying Dutchman, the ship he sailed into a storm near the Cape of Good Hope. According to one version of the story, he made this decision on Good Friday 1676 after it had already been storming for several weeks.

Van der Decken became known through the nineteenth-century novel The Ghost Ship The Flying Dutchman by the English writer Frederick Marryat. In the book, a house on the Havenstraat in Terneuzen is designated as the home where captain van der Decken lived with his wife Catherina and son Philip. According to the author, a few years after Van der Decken's departure the family had to move due to poverty to just outside the town. There they moved into a small colourful house. Marryat also mentions a building on the Noordstraat where Van der Decken was said to have been born.

According to historians, Van der Decken is based on Bernard Fokke, a VOC captain who drove his crew to extremes in order to reach a destination at great speed. He was therefore described as a tyrant. Falkenberg's name is also mentioned among sailors as a possible captain of the ship. In Washington Irving's book The Flying Dutchman on Tapas Sea he is called Rambout van Dam. In many books, the name Van der Decken is mostly used, sometimes written together (VanderDecken).

The following quote is in fact the base for the story of the Vliegende Hollander. As said - it had been storming for several days and Van der Decken was eager to sail. He got upset he could not go, and this made him so angry that he shouted:

"Storm or no storm, Easter or no Easter, I will sail, even if it is for eternity!"

Promptly the storm subsided. The devil then appeared before him and said that he would indeed sail for eternity, whereupon the storm rose again in all its anger. But van der Decken could sail - with rounded sails, and against the wind. In the following years the crew died one by one, except Van der Decken who was left alone at the helm to sail the world seas, for eternity.
Every now and then (even up to nowadays) the flying Dutchman is seen, with blood red sails, rounded, sailing against the wind, floating above the water*

The Scheepvaartmuseum in Amsterdam has also written a piece about the Vliegende Hollander (which is slightly different - but the same story):

God or the devil
It was the seventeenth century when Willem van der Decken left Holland on Easter Sunday, bound for Asia. A blasphemous fact; working on a Christian holiday. That was acting like the devil! Everything had to make way for a quick crossing to Asia. The fastest route to Asia was around the Cape of Good Hope. To the south of Africa, the weather got worse and worse, but Van der Decken insisted: he must and will set sail. He did so in order not to hinder the trade and to pocket the money that could be earned. His crew begs him to wait out in the open for another day, but Van der Decken does not want to hear about it and even throws his helmsman overboard. He spoke the words: "God or the devil, I will sail around that Cape! If I have to sail until the last judgement".

These sounds came to the devil's ears. If this was what Van der Decken wanted, he could have it. The devil took over the ship from the sinful captain and made the ship sail around in circles for all eternity. The ship became a true ghost ship, able to do things that a normal ship could never do. Like sailing against the wind. The colours of the sails changed to blood red and often the ship was seen 'floating' 'above' the waves, where a normal ship makes its passage through the water. The crew members became the living dead: the ship was possessed by the devil from that Easter Sunday onwards and was popularly called a ghost ship that was still often seen on the horizon. There are even people from the 1990s (yes, our 1990s) who claim to have seen the ship.*

*My vision on this:
This is quite usual: when it has been a hot day the layer of air above the water often causes a mirage, where you can see objects at a far distance (often beyond the horizon) and floating above the visible water. Combined with the evening sun which causes orange red skies a passing sailing ship could in this way be seen as floating and with orange red sails.
You just need the right circumstances and a sailing ship (yes - they still excist) passing by.

Hans
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Thank you Hans - that is most informative and a beautiful story - but a story. The really important part you and agree I on - Van der Decken's character - and it was a character created by the writer, Frederick Marryat, was a character and therefore fictional. Nowhere in any of the VOC records was there ever a Van der Decken.

BUT ... there was a Barend Fokkesz and there was his galjoot, called Snoeper or Snobber in 1677. And the question remains. If that trip took a year - how the hell did he do it in 3 months? - And what follows here is not fictional.

In the 17th century, the Dutch were obsessed with speed. Their empire expanded across the world, with colonies on most major continents. One of their most lucrative colonies was in Batavia, modern day Jakarta, which had a highly profitable trade in spices. At the time, spices were extremely valuable, being used not only for culinary purposes but to disguise bad odours and make medicine.

Thanks to the spice trade, the Dutch became a very wealthy empire. However, they were in intense competition with Portuguese and English merchants. Thus, if they could find the fastest routes, and employ the most able captains, it would help secure their dominance of the spice trade.

At the beginning of the century, a journey from the Netherlands to Indonesia would take around one year. Yet, in 1678 Captain Bernard Fokke, made that trip in just over three months. At the time there was no Suez canal to cut through, so this meant that he had somehow sailed around a large portion of Europe, along the entire length of Africa, and across the Indian ocean, in a wooden ship, in a meagre amount of time. This was a speed that would only be beaten in more modern times. For the seventeenth century this speed seems unbelievable. However, the sail time was verified by the dates stamped on the letters the captain delivered. 2

And this is where the fictional part comes in.

After his feat, ominous stories started to circulate about the captain, describing him as a severe taskmaster who made serving under him a misery. Then there was an allegation of diabolical treachery: Fokke had sold his soul to the devil to be the fastest sailor in the world. It is said that in return for his soul, the devil turned the tackle of his ship from wood to iron and thus he was able to change sails during even the fiercest of storms, something which a wooden mast made very difficult. Thus, with the devil’s supposed help and his unyielding leadership, Fokke performed one of the fastest voyages of the age.

His speed though - completing the journey in a quarter of the time is a FACT! How did he do that? Sometimes the facts are more interesting than the fictional stories.
 
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OK so I looked again - the trip was fast but nothing like what the earlier information suggested. In 1617, they discovered a new route which cut the travel time in half - from a year to approximately 6 months. And the 158 days equate to five months. Maybe he was just lucky with favourable winds!
 
Heinrich said:
His speed though - completing the journey in a quarter of the time is a FACT! How did he do that? Sometimes the facts are more interesting than the fictional stories.
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Fact - indeed!
In the early 17th century the route to the East was around the Cape - then upwards again via Madagscar, Mauritius, Ceylon (Sri Lanka) and then towards (nowadays) Indonesia.
But in 1610 chief merchant Hendrik Brouwer, trialled a new route from the Cape of Good Hope to Java and reported enthusiastically of his prosperous journey. It would shorten the duration of the trip from the Netherlands to East India by several weeks, and even months. Instead of going past Madagascar and Mauritius, and then going straight across the Indian Ocean, Brouwer discovered a new route which looked a lot longer on the map, but was much quicker to sail in practice. From the Cape of Good Hope he took a south-easterly course until the ship was at around 35 degrees south. At that latitude there were strong westerly winds, and it was essential to make use of those for as long as possible. From there he changed course sharply, to make use of the south-easterly trade wind, and sailed straight towards Java. Thus it was possible to sail the entire course with a tail wind. An added bonus was that the climate was much more pleasant than at tropical latitudes, so the crew fared better and supplies did not spoil as quickly. Because this route was so profitable, it was made compulsory for everyone by the VOC in 1616. However, this route also had unforeseen downsides. According to the instructions, from the Cape one had to sail around a thousand miles east, but it was very difficult to estimate the distance covered. At the time it was not yet possible to determine an exact longitude, and on the way there were no fixed landmarks. Sailors therefore never knew how far they had got already. This was extremely risky; ships that sailed too far east ended up on the ‘Southland’, Australia, and the coast of Australia was at that time barely explored. This coast was, however, already notorious for its sharp cliffs and treacherous shallows and there are a 'few' Dutch ships who shipwrecked at the Australian coast, the Batavia being the most notorious one.

Hans
 
Jimsky said:
...didn't mean to spoil your view, hence offer my spot in exchange for your folding chair (if Peter @Peter Voogt doesn't mind) ;)
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Can you save me a seat , I’m a newbie so I don’t mind sitting near the back , also I have a big bag of popcorn ( I promise not to crunch too loudly or rustle the packet) ian
 
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