HIGH HOPES, WILD MEN AND THE DEVIL’S JAW - Willem Barentsz Kolderstok 1:50

[Heinrich]

Hi Heinrich, have to catch up a lot of pages. Your little ship is going to the right direction. Nice work.

Some point of criticism, about the stay. I agree with Sacha that the stay is in top of the shrouds, never below it. Even the Dutch rigging method don't show this. When you start on the mizzen mast and work to the front it is easy to do. Start with the shrouds of the mizzen and then the stay of the mizzen to the foot of the mainmast. Then the shrouds of the mainmast, then the main stay, at last the foremast shrouds, foremast stay. When you have finish that you start again on the mizzen topmast stay and then etc...
There are builders that find it difficult to make the stays after all the shrouds are done, that's true, not easy to work on the foot of the mast when the shrouds are placed. But do it like I mentioned before you don't have that problem. And you work on a correct way to do the rigging. The stay under the shrouds is a big rigging mistake.
And if you planning side tackles or stay tackles (same thing) you have to do them before the shrouds.
Just an advice to help you to be correct in rigging a Dutch ship.

Dear Stephan. Thank you very much for the advice on the rigging. I regard you as one of the rigging doyens on the forum and as such your advice is most welcome. You are absolutely correct in everything that you have mentioned on the rigging. As I have mentioned in Post #4934, I am well aware that the shrouds go on first followed by the stays, but I have also mentioned from the outset that I am following Piet's process. Having said that, look at the picture below of Ab's build. I have highlighted the mainstay (grote stag) in red and the foremast stay (fokkestag) in green, but note that there is no mizzen stay at all - very different to both @Kolderstok Hans and Piet's rigging. It seems that this little ship had a mind all of its own.

 

[Steef66]

Dear Heinrich, it is not my intention to point out mistakes to you. But I am a bit puzzled by your practices in the next step of your build. Your entire report you have made the most possible effort to do as correct a build as possible taking into account all the historical evidence available. And with the fitting of your rigging, you choose to follow the build of someone who does not do it correctly, but makes the choice to fit the rigging as quickly as possible and in the easiest way possible. Of course, you are the captain of your build and you are free to do so. But I saw this report as a nice reference for the Willem Barentsz, unfortunately not for the rigging seemingly. Which was a great opportunity to also be able to show all your visitors how things were done on these small ships in those days. Finally, you have all those beautiful pen drawings of this ship, where you can find most of it. And if you need it the help of the expertise of the many builders on this forum. But as I indicated before, you are the captain. And I'm respect your choice.

 

[Heinrich]

Dear Heinrich, it is not my intention to point out mistakes to you. But I am a bit puzzled by your practices in the next step of your build. Your entire report you have made the most possible effort to do as correct a build as possible taking into account all the historical evidence available. And with the fitting of your rigging, you choose to follow the build of someone who does not do it correctly, but makes the choice to fit the rigging as quickly as possible and in the easiest way possible. Of course, you are the captain of your build and you are free to do so. But I saw this report as a nice reference for the Willem Barentsz, unfortunately not for the rigging seemingly. Which was a great opportunity to also be able to show all your visitors how things were done on these small ships in those days. Finally, you have all those beautiful pen drawings of this ship, where you can find most of it. And if you need it the help of the expertise of the many builders on this forum. But as I indicated before, you are the captain. And I'm respect your choice.

Dear Stephan. Everything you, @Thomas Marocke Thomas, and @Alexander74 Sasha have said is true. Thank you all for keeping me on the straight and narrow and a special thanks to you Stephan for pointing out that this was the easy way out. I have made the change already as you will see later when I post pictures.

I also apologize to all my friends for taking the short way - it is something which is not in character with the rest of the build and with all the hundreds of hours of research that I have put into the project so far. That single post by Stephan has refocused me completely and was exactly what I needed.

 

[Steef66]

I'm honored that I was a part of this change in focus. And will be a big help for you to the rigging of this ship. I seen that Ab don't name a mizzen stay. Why he didn"t I don't know, I think that he did this because something about he said before. Sometimes he leave away parts of rigging to keep a good overall look of the ship. You gonna need this stay later on the rigging of the sails. Some of the blocks of the braces of the sails on the main are attached to this stay. Hope you have something of this information.

 

[Heinrich]

I'm honored that I was a part of this change in focus. And will be a big help for you to the rigging of this ship. I seen that Ab don't name a mizzen stay. Why he didn"t I don't know, I think that he did this because something about he said before. Sometimes he leave away parts of rigging to keep a good overall look of the ship. You gonna need this stay later on the rigging of the sails. Some of the blocks of the braces of the sails on the main are attached to this stay. Hope you have something of this information.

I will read up what Ab says about the rigging and see if he mentions something in particular to the mizzen stay.

 

[Steef66]

In my log of the Spanish Galeon, Bert Mogelin shared a picture he made of the Halve Mean. A ship that can be compared to the WB. There is good to see how the rigging was done. Even the tie of the yards are done like on the Wasa, which is also a good reference for the rigging.

 

[Kolderstok]

Not very clear visible - but there was a mizzen stay.

 

[Heinrich]

In my log of the Spanish Galeon, Bert Mogelin shared a picture he made of the Halve Mean. A ship that can be compared to the WB. There is good to see how the rigging was done. Even the tie of the yards are done like on the Wasa, which is also a good reference for the rigging.
View attachment 346043

Thank you Stephan. I will post Ab's reasoning in a short while.

 

[Heinrich]

Not very clear visible - but there was a mizzen stay.

View attachment 346046

Thank you very much, Hans. I have obviously had a good look at the drawings and as per usual, there are an equal number of drawings showing the mizzen stay and an equal number who do not.


Clearly no mizzen stay here ...


Or here ...

Conversely, you and Gerald de Weerdt do show the mizzen stay on your plans.


De Weerdt


@Kolderstok

 

[Heinrich]

In his book "Het Schip van Willem Barents", @Ab Hoving Ab writes as follows on page 65.

De stagen geven de masten en stengen steun in voorwaartse richting. Grofweg volgens de stagen van vroege schepen dezelfde lijhn as latere. Opvallend is echter wel dat op vroege afbeeldingen vaak de bezaanstag ontbreekt. Vermoedelijk werd de steun van de roede, die vaak wel een zware "topennant" tussen masttop en ondernok had, voldoende geoordeeld. De lezer moet daarbij bedenken dat de bezaansmast nog lang niet de afmetingen had aangenomen die het later in de eeuw kreeg en ook zeker nog geen kruissteng en-zeil voerde. Het latijnzeil zak ook zelden wind van voren hebben gehad, wat voorwaartse steun niet erg noodzaaklijk maakte. Als later de bezaansmast groter wordt genomen en het zeil ook groter wordt, is de invoering van een bezaansstag een logische vervolg.

Translated:

Stays give the masts and stems support in a forward direction. Roughly speaking, the stays on earlier ships followed the same layout as on later ones. However, it is striking that early images often lack the mizzen stay. Presumably the support of the "rod" (I have no idea of the correct translation), which often had a heavy "topennant" rope between mast top and bottom mast notch, was judged as being sufficient. The reader should remember that the mizzen mast had not yet taken on the dimensions that it received later in the century and certainly did not yet carry a cross-stem and sail. The lateen sail also rarely had wind from the front, which made forward support not very necessary. Later when the mizzen mast grew in size and length and the sail became larger, the introduction of a mizzen stay was a logical continuation of the development.

Hence Ab's rigging plan shows no mizzen stay.

 

[Steef66]

Never trust modern writers. Always look for the oldest resource.
Ab's own words
Post in thread 'Pinnace Papegojan 1627 - 1/48 [COMPLETED BUILD]' https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/...an-1627-1-48-completed-build.7055/post-186206
I think those paintings of the journal @Kolderstok also shown and the Weerd illustrated, even the replica of the halve maen shows are the most accurate in this case. Those picture what don't show the mizzen stay, don't show a lot of other things that should be there, like the fore topmast stay, the crowfeet on the stays and ohter rigging that was installed to handling the ship.
This ship was made to go North on rough sea. There where a lot of powers on these mast during these sailing trips.

Edit


You don't know why this ship is in this stage, stranded in the ice for sure. What happened? What rope do they use to pull the ship out. There are a lot of questions to ask yourself if this is how it was when the ship departured from the harbour in the Netherlands. That's the way I look to these pictures and the setting.

 

[Heinrich]

Never trust modern writers. Always look for the oldest resource.
Ab's own words
Post in thread 'Pinnace Papegojan 1627 - 1/48 [COMPLETED BUILD]' https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/...an-1627-1-48-completed-build.7055/post-186206
I think those paintings of the journal @Kolderstok also shown and the Weerd illustrated, even the replica of the halve maen shows are the most accurate in this case. Those picture what don't show the mizzen stay, don't show a lot of other things that should be there, like the fore topmast stay, the crowfeet on the stays and ohter rigging that was installed to handling the ship.
This ship was made to go North on rough sea. There where a lot of powers on these mast during these sailing trips.

Edit
View attachment 346056

You don't know why this ship is in this stage, stranded in the ice for sure. What happened? What rope do they use to pull the ship out. There are a lot of questions to ask yourself if this is how it was when the ship departured from the harbour in the Netherlands. That's the way I look to these pictures and the setting.

Hi Stephan. The oldest resources we have are the journals by Gerrit De Veer and his drawings. Some of his drawings show a mizzen stay and some don't.

Let me see if I understand you correctly - you are saying that Ab is wrong by not showing a mizzen stay in his plans?

 

[Steef66]

Let me see if I understand you correctly - you are saying that Ab is wrong by not showing a mizzen stay in his plans

Short answer. Yes I think.
But Ab gives an explanation why. And Ab also told me not to trust modern writers, incl. himself, just go for the oldest resources he said.
The drawings of de Veer show a stay and sometimes not. I can understand that details could be forgotten to draw, or not vissible. But he was so secure in his drawings the most of the times that I can't believe that he draws things that weren't there. So the stay should be there in my opinion.
I agree with Ab that there are in that time changes in rigging, small ships could have no mizzen stay. If the mizzen is small enough in combination with the sail. All drawings show a big lateen, as you can discover. This combine with the planned travel to the nordic sea, the drawings that show the stay. Yes there was a mizzen stay on the WB. This is also what RC Anderson wrote in his book. Peter Kirsch shows the rigging plan of a galleon with a bon aventura mast (fourth mast behind the mizzen) and there is also a stay on that mast. That mast is very small, the sail on that mastois small to. I understand in Kirsch his book that the rigging plan came by study of old models incl. The flamish galleon where the book of him is written about.

I hope my opinion about this helps you to make a dicision if you make the stay or not.
The blocks of the braces of the mainsail will be (not on the stay what I wrote before) attached to the shrouds of the mizzen mast.

 

[GrantTyler]

Hi Stephan. The oldest resources we have are the journals by Gerrit De Veer and his drawings. Some of his drawings show a mizzen stay and some don't.

Let me see if I understand you correctly - you are saying that Ab is wrong by not showing a mizzen stay in his plans?

Good morning Heinrich. I’m happy you decided to change the stays to go over the shrouds. Not only is it correct, but once done will look so much better.

Mizzen stay or not. I enjoy this debate and suggestions. I have found that even the experts differ in opinion and interpretation. E.g on the Victory- Longridge vs MacKay and MacGowen have different interpretations to rigging certain lines.(and the Victory is still afloat). I have also noticed the differences between the Spanish, French, British and certainly the Dutch is very evident.

Gerrit De Veer and his drawings. Some of his drawings show a mizzen stay and some don't.

I think this reference gives you the freedom to choose….I would include the Mizzen stay just because I like loads of lines on a ship - that just personal.

Cheers Grant

 

[Heinrich]

Short answer. Yes I think.
But Ab gives an explanation why. And Ab also told me not to trust modern writers, incl. himself, just go for the oldest resources he said.
The drawings of de Veer show a stay and sometimes not. I can understand that details could be forgotten to draw, or not vissible. But he was so secure in his drawings the most of the times that I can't believe that he draws things that weren't there. So the stay should be there in my opinion.
I agree with Ab that there are in that time changes in rigging, small ships could have no mizzen stay. If the mizzen is small enough in combination with the sail. All drawings show a big lateen, as you can discover. This combine with the planned travel to the nordic sea, the drawings that show the stay. Yes there was a mizzen stay on the WB. This is also what RC Anderson wrote in his book. Peter Kirsch shows the rigging plan of a galleon with a bon aventura mast (fourth mast behind the mizzen) and there is also a stay on that mast. That mast is very small, the sail on that mastois small to. I understand in Kirsch his book that the rigging plan came by study of old models incl. The flamish galleon where the book of him is written about.

I hope my opinion about this helps you to make a dicision if you make the stay or not.
The blocks of the braces of the mainsail will be (not on the stay what I wrote before) attached to the shrouds of the mizzen mast.

It has certainly helped Stephan!

 

[Heinrich]

Good morning Heinrich. I’m happy you decided to change the stays to go over the shrouds. Not only is it correct, but once done will look so much better.

Mizzen stay or not. I enjoy this debate and suggestions. I have found that even the experts differ in opinion and interpretation. E.g on the Victory- Longridge vs MacKay and MacGowen have different interpretations to rigging certain lines.(and the Victory is still afloat). I have also noticed the differences between the Spanish, French, British and certainly the Dutch is very evident.


I think this reference gives you the freedom to choose….I would include the Mizzen stay just because I like loads of lines on a ship - that just personal.

Cheers Grant

Hi Grant. Yes, the mizzen stay was quite a nice little discussion. I have already installed the lower part of the mizzen stay assembly, so it is there if I decide to use it. I know you like loads of lines (Grant's Victory is testament) to that, but on a much smaller and simpler ship, I can only include the lines that should be there.

 

[Heinrich]

Hello Dear Friends

Just an interim update on work in the Nantong Shipyard.


The base or foot of the mizzen stay has already been attached to the main mast. That will remain in limbo until the mizzen mast is made and that part of the rigging is started.


In the meantime, deft fingers are at work on the foremast shrouds ...


... which we hope to have finished by tonight.

 

[pingu57]

This is looking good my friend, are you planning to colour the white rope a bit as well??

 

[Heinrich]

This is looking good my friend, are you planning to colour the white rope a bit as well??

Thank you, Peter. The question about the coloring of the rope is a good one. Obviously, the rope is too white, but I made a conscious decision to do the rigging with the ropes exactly as @Kolderstok has supplied it. The temptation to go for exotic and super-expensive ropes was something that I did not even consider. Trying to import anything into China at the moment is a nightmare* and going through a coloring process with the ropes using stains and dyes that I am not familiar with is just too risky. I will do my utmost best to do the rigging as neat and correct as I can do it, but that is that.

(*The government has decided to abandon all nucleic testing with the result that Covid cases in China has skyrocketed. Everything is upside down at the moment and that includes any attempt to import anything.)

 

[Heinrich]

Dear Friends

We have finished the shrouds and a massive thank you to my Admiral who has helped a lot!


For the shrouds I just have used the normal @Kolderstok kit-supplied deadeyes. Unfortunately, the authentic deadeyes and blocks that Hans always offers an option are unavailable at the moment. They are sourced from Russia and with world-politics the way they are at the moment, it was goodbye to that choice.






In the end the shrouds turned out to be symmetrical, so I am pleased with that.


The foremast is still plumb with the main mast, so the tensioning of the shrouds did not have any effect on that.


Overview from Starboard Side


And Port Side.

I will fiddle-fart around during the week getting the shrouds ready for the main mast and see if time permits me to start on the mizzen. At this stage of my life in China as a teacher, it is almost possible to plan for the next day, so I just have to go with the flow, and be content.