HMS ST. Lawrence

Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
731
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298

Location
Hillsburgh, ON, CAN
I would love to but there just isn't much research material out there. It was of French design, I guess because the Admiralty wouldn't be aware of its building. It was built for fresh water and had no knees which in itself is quite unusual. Originally I thought it was of English design which would have made it a lot easier.
Apparently there is a set of plans that @Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) just told me are in Weasel Works. I’ve just asked him if a kit or something is being developed. Would be ALL OVER a group build of this ship.
 
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
731
Points
298

Location
Hillsburgh, ON, CAN
Would you be interested in a group build or are you resolved to your cross section build? No idea when/if Weasel Works can be encouraged to develop this kit. I guess if there is enough interest it gets higher on the priority list.
 
Joined
Dec 2, 2018
Messages
122
Points
113

I finished the cross-section build but I don't know if I could commit to such a large project as I just don't have the stamina I used to.
 

Canoe21

Lawrence
Joined
Mar 31, 2017
Messages
1,479
Points
493

Location
Sutton. Ontario, Canada
Hello John, Welcome aboard the Great Ships of Scale Form, You will find the people over here very friendly and helpful, not at all like one of the other forms that I can think of.
Happy belated 69 Birthday, I trust that you got all of the new toys that you have hoped for. You beat me to the big 69 by just a few days
The St Lawrence in name is a special ship to me as in my younger days in the early 60ths I spent two years sailing on the Imperial St. Lawrence, a super tanker, both as a AB and a Quartermaster, those were the days as we were deep sea, running out of Venezuela, and all over including Europe. The Imperial St. Lawrence was a big ship back then but small compared to those big barges of today.
Sorry for the late coming , but I just found your build log here today. I to am slowing down these days but I am just getting over a bad case of very painful Shingles that I picked up last May, but things are starting to improve now.
I wish you luck on your new adventure of the St. Lawrence, she is such a big ship, much like the HMS Victory that I built a few years ago and back then she took me 2 years, today this would be much longer, ENJOY.
Regards Lawrence
 
Joined
Dec 2, 2018
Messages
122
Points
113

Fair enough, any pictures of this build? I don't recall seeing them in this post but I may be mistaken.
Unfortunately, I have the pics but I can't download them to my computer and due to covid, I can't get it fixed right now.
 
Joined
Dec 2, 2018
Messages
122
Points
113

Hello John, Welcome aboard the Great Ships of Scale Form, You will find the people over here very friendly and helpful, not at all like one of the other forms that I can think of.
Happy belated 69 Birthday, I trust that you got all of the new toys that you have hoped for. You beat me to the big 69 by just a few days
The St Lawrence in name is a special ship to me as in my younger days in the early 60ths I spent two years sailing on the Imperial St. Lawrence, a super tanker, both as a AB and a Quartermaster, those were the days as we were deep sea, running out of Venezuela, and all over including Europe. The Imperial St. Lawrence was a big ship back then but small compared to those big barges of today.
Sorry for the late coming , but I just found your build log here today. I to am slowing down these days but I am just getting over a bad case of very painful Shingles that I picked up last May, but things are starting to improve now.
I wish you luck on your new adventure of the St. Lawrence, she is such a big ship, much like the HMS Victory that I built a few years ago and back then she took me 2 years, today this would be much longer, ENJOY.
Regards Lawrence
Hi Lawrence. Actually, I turned 80 in November. Your still just a kid. Sorry about the shingles you have. Fortunately, my doctor gave me the shots. I have had a similar life experience as a pilot but have been retired now for 20 years. I think I know of the forum that you are talking about. I had a very bad experience with them too. I don't belong to any forums now. I have Facebook pages and groups and administer them myself instead. Cheers! John.
 

Canoe21

Lawrence
Joined
Mar 31, 2017
Messages
1,479
Points
493

Location
Sutton. Ontario, Canada
Hi Lawrence. Actually, I turned 80 in November. Your still just a kid. Sorry about the shingles you have. Fortunately, my doctor gave me the shots. I have had a similar life experience as a pilot but have been retired now for 20 years. I think I know of the forum that you are talking about. I had a very bad experience with them too. I don't belong to any forums now. I have Facebook pages and groups and administer them myself instead. Cheers! John.
Hello John, Facebook is ok that is for sure, but I for one wish you would reconsider joining the SOS Form we have a very friendly group of people over here not at all like the msw. You would find a lot of help here also just my 2 cents worth.
Regards Lawrence
 
Joined
Apr 16, 2021
Messages
2
Points
3
Location
British Columbia
Hi all, I just joined, and it was specifically because of this forum! I'm a long time modeller, have been researching the St. Lawrence for about 15 years now, with the intent of a doing a scratch rigged model (1:72 most likely). I stumbled across you fellows and all sorts of useful tidbits here, so I'm very thankful, as people who know about this vessel are few and far between it seems. I've been to Kingston several times doing research, and met with a few authors who've touched on her (I grew up in southern Ontario and always had an abiding interest in the War of 1812), so what a gem to come across this forum!

Cheers,
Tom
 
Joined
Apr 16, 2021
Messages
2
Points
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Location
British Columbia
Thanks Don! So on that note, I've noted discrepancies over the years as to the complement of guns on the St. Lawrence, perhaps people here have been able to get to a better answer than I have. 112 guns is commonly cited, but I haven't found any evidence that actually backs this up. This all in turn messes with hydrostatic calculations and determining things like draft. I have two reputable sources that both cite 104 guns, but in different configurations;

One source (Lyon, David; Winfield, Rif (2004). The Sail & Steam Navy List: All the Ships of the Royal Navy, 1815–1889. London: Chatham. ISBN 1-86176-032-9.) indicates the following complement;
• Gun deck: 28 × 32lb, 4 × 24lb, 2 × 68lb carronades
• Middle gun deck: 36 × 24lb
• Upper gun deck: 32 × 32lb, 2 × 68lb carronades

While another source (Robert Malcomson, Warships of the Great Lakes: 1754-1834 (Annapolis, MD: Naval Institute Press, 2001)) indicates the following complement;
34 @32lb, 34 @24lb long guns, 34 @32lb carronades and 2 @ 68lb carronades.

Since carronades are not counted in a ship of the line's guns, both of these sets of numbers raise the question of whether St. Lawrence was a First Rate ship. In the Lyon/Winfield scenario, we're on target, but with Malcolmson's model, while displacement, gun decks and crew still supports First Rate, guns would only count to 68 guns, which would typically put her around a Third Rate, except that these only have two gun decks typically by the Napoleonic era. To that point, Lyon/Winfield's statement of 2 carronades on the gun deck is also a bit puzzling, as carronades are typically on the quarterdeck/upper gun deck. I know gun deck placement was done though, the HMS Glatton was an example with 68 pounders on her lower deck, but she wasnt a 3 decker. I'm a little skeptical of the 34@35lb carronades, but it makes sense to load up the upper deck with these light and intimidating guns given the role of the vessel, and at the time, loading up on carronades on the upper deck was being done (take the USS Essex for example. she only had carronades, and had to surrender without a fight to the HMS Phoebe which had long guns.

Just as a bit of trivia, figures from Brian Lavery, Nelson's Navy: The Ships, Men and Organization, 1793-1815 (Annapolis, MD: Naval Institute Press, 1989), 80-85, which proposes that typical 32-pdr long gun weighed in the neighbourhood of 5,500 pounds, while the weights of the other ordnance were approximately 5,000 pounds for a 24-pdr long gun and 1700 pounds for a 32-pdr carronade. So I calculated the weight, excluding shot and powder; in Lyon & Winfield's scenario, total weight would have been approximately 270 tons and 210 tons for Malcolmson's model. Assuming proportions similar to Victory for gunpowder and shot, we could probably add 35 tons of gunpowder and 120 tons of shot to those numbers. Its hard to imagine just the logistics of getting all of this to Kingston from Quebec in the 156 day window they had from laying the keel to launching her!
 
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