I thinking about getting into milling!

donfarr said:
I HAVE A QUESTION ACTUALLY 2 A LOT MENTIONING X-Y AXIS WHAT ABOUT Z AXIS TO ME IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASSPECT, MY PROBLEM IS I CAN NOT KEEP THE DEPTH (Z AXIS THE SAME ALL OVER THE PLACE ANY SUGESTIONS PLEASE. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE ALL DON
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Depending on the machine, you can have X axis, Y axis, Z axis and theta. Theta is a rotational component. In CNC machines all the axis and movement is controlled by a computer with a machine interface that powers stepper motors that drive lead screws. Other considerations are the end mill/cutter itself. And materials being machined. There are speeds and feeds to consider too. This is, again dependent on the machine and its computer system. You can spend a little, and you can spend ALOT! Do some reading and educate yourself if you're thinking of getting into CNC. A manual mill consideration might be a system that you do the machining with the help of a digital readout (DRO) for positioning.
 
donfarr said:
I HAVE A QUESTION ACTUALLY 2 A LOT MENTIONING X-Y AXIS WHAT ABOUT Z AXIS TO ME IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASSPECT, MY PROBLEM IS I CAN NOT KEEP THE DEPTH (Z AXIS THE SAME ALL OVER THE PLACE ANY SUGESTIONS PLEASE. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE ALL DON
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i do not understand your question

X Y Z are number controlled by the computer program they can not be all over the place unless you give it coordinates a series of z numbers to say follow a mesh pattern.
red is Y green is X and blue is Z they are a set distance from the 0,0 point which is the little circle. say you want Z at .250 it will stay at .250 unless you change it.

xyz.JPG
 
El Capi said:
I have been building for 50 years -until 4 Years ago, without any expensive tools. I had twoGremel ( Baterery drive, so very portable) and fix Dremel on a Borestsander. When I started it was long before Laser Cut and Dremels etc, so hard handwork Wit these Took most Builds was made. In the I had 4x thick X-knives Holder and 5 of the thin shaft, for not changing knives a few minutes. When I see, some of the more professional Tool Rooms and calculate the cost of these, I get ahead deck-1000 of € or US dollars
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Sometimes I also have the feeling of being in an industrial hall when I see the workplaces with the devices. The necessity seems dubious to me, oversized. Machines are no substitute for a sure instinct, I think.
 
You guys are making a lot of sense. Maybe it's just smarter to invest in some quality hand tools or maybe some more basic mini machines (table saw, planer, jigsaw)...?
 
ot1138 said:
Maybe it's just smarter to invest in some quality hand tools or maybe some more basic mini machines (table saw, planer, jigsaw)...?
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Good tools are good investments but...if you are the kit assembler without intent to 'bash' or scratch build, technically, the only mini machine you need - is a good, precision rotary tool, and good quality hand tools. The rest of your money (if any left :D), you can use towards the next kit\s. Good hand tools cost a lot of money. This is my subjective opinion ;)
 
PoulD said:
I think the main difference is that in the mill the router stays in a fixed position and the workpiece is moved. In a CNC router the workpiece is fixed and the router is moved.

CNC routers are in general for lighter work and only soft material and the bit is usually rotating at very high speed. A mill is in general much stronger, can rotate also with low speed, can take deeper cuts and can mill not only soft material but also hard materials, even metal.

CNC mills are also available in the market. Often a bit heavy on the wallet though. However you can buy CNC add on for the Proxxon mill for rather small money (original proxxon CNC is more expensive than unoriginal. for instance thsi kit is low cost http://www.ideegeniali.it/shop/31-proxxon-mf70-retrofit-kit.html I do not have any experience with it myself.
There are even cheaper kit with smaller torque/ motors in the market but as far as Im' told these are pretty much useless.
Also be aware that for CNC you also have to buy several pieces of software. If you want to do something in the advanced end the software can be very expensive.
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I had a look at that upgrade according your link and it looks very tempting. I've got plenty of experience with Solidworks and I have the software so there is no problem from this angle. I do lots of manual carvings and what I miss is consistency and repeatability. I do not think that real 3D figures like figure heads could be CNC'd that easily but I hope that it could help me a lot with scrollworks, side decorations and the like. What disturbs me though is that I can't see the whole system in its entirety. Is there anything else needed than this retrofit (toolpath!!!) or is this it?
János
 
janos said:
I had a look at that upgrade according your link and it looks very tempting. I've got plenty of experience with Solidworks and I have the software so there is no problem from this angle. I do lots of manual carvings and what I miss is consistency and repeatability. I do not think that real 3D figures like figure heads could be CNC'd that easily but I hope that it could help me a lot with scrollworks, side decorations and the like. What disturbs me though is that I can't see the whole system in its entirety. Is there anything else needed than this retrofit (toolpath!!!) or is this it?
János
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As I said, I do not have personal experience with it but to me it seems like it is all the hardware you need, except for a PC with a parallel port (aka printer port). You also need some software to execute a G-code program, for example Mach3.
Here is a youtube video of assempling the system and two with the system running

Having said that, I think I would also add some hardware to suck out the dust, maybe even a hose with dust free air for the motor, and maybe also some microswitches.
 
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Two days ago i bought a CNC after a long phase of information and examination the market. The plan is to mill the decorsets for my projects, as well the canons in brass. For this part you need a CNC with minimum 4 axis and as well the software who supports all this axis. The qualitiy of the result depends a lot of the quality of your machine, the backslash, the architecture from the machine, the whole technical components.
But to mill CNC you need a datafile on CAD. If you need normal geometrys you can use every CAD-Programm. I work with Catia. But to create decorations you have to work with programms like Blender, Rhino, ZBrush, Maya, Sculptris . In the designingprocess you have to check the feasibility. Is i possible for the machine ? Is there any undercut ? With 4 axis there is a lot possible but not everything. You have to split some goemetries (Arms, Legs....) and stick them together after the manufacturing. There is a lot of skill necessary before the machine start to work.
In my eyes the skill to carve virtual is not far away from real carving (duck and cover). Its more or less the same process. Both will spend equal hours on the part, have to know the tools. And for both, if you have not a eye for geometry you aren´t able to create a good result.
If you geometry is ready you have to use a CAM-Programm which generate the G-Code. A CAM-Programm for 4 (or more) axis start with 300 Euros and there is a open end. Then your controllersoftware will work with this g-code and have to support as well the 4 or more axis. Finally you can start the millingprocess.
 
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Thanks for the quick answers, Gents! They made lots of things clearer and also rang the bell with one thing: backlash. The MF70 is a relatively simple machine and on all 3 axes it has a lot of it. At the moment I can't see it how a CNC program could handle this. It probably can - otherwise PROXXON would not have come out with the CNC version of the MF70. But I am not sure how it happens.
To make things simpler - and this might be my very specific case - I would need nothing more than 3 axes. The outlines would be enough and I would be happy to finish every piece manually including undercuts and the like. My problem is, as I wrote in my other post, consistency and repeatability. Probably CNC is an overdoing for this. Probably a simpler laser etching process would be enough.
János
 
janos said:
Thanks for the quick answers, Gents! They made lots of things clearer and also rang the bell with one thing: backlash. The MF70 is a relatively simple machine and on all 3 axes it has a lot of it. At the moment I can't see it how a CNC program could handle this. It probably can - otherwise PROXXON would not have come out with the CNC version of the MF70. But I am not sure how it happens.
To make things simpler - and this might be my very specific case - I would need nothing more than 3 axes. The outlines would be enough and I would be happy to finish every piece manually including undercuts and the like. My problem is, as I wrote in my other post, consistency and repeatability. Probably CNC is an overdoing for this. Probably a simpler laser etching process would be enough.
János
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If only the backlash is constant it is no problem to eliminate it in e.g. Mach3 (there are parameters for that).
I have considered myself to invest in a cnc kit but only for semi manual work. I would not use any CAD & CAM software at all. Just because I'm lazy, so to save the work of turning the handwheell over and over and not at least not having to count the revolutions of the handwheel and to enjoy the digital readout. I think it is easy just to enter a few G-codes for such simple jobs, however I would want an option to both having the servo- or stepper motors and the handwheels at the same time.
Moreover, it would be possible to route curves, e.g. for deck beams (curves are impossible to do manually - at least for me)
 
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In my eyes the skill to carve virtual is not far away from real carving (duck and cover). Its more or less the same process. Both will spend equal hours on the part, have to know the tools. And for both, if you have not a eye for geometry you aren´t able to create a good result.

This is the part many would be CNC mill, lasers, routers, 3D printing guys overlook, the programing.

i just finished the hull of the Mississippi in autocad then exported the file as a DXF. From there i imported the DXF into Fusion360 so i can extrude the frames and keel parts. to my surprise nothing would extrude on the Z. Researching DXF files i discovered many programs will not "read" a DXF the same as Autocad so when you import it into another program there are tiny gaps between arcs, splines and lines that were not there in autocad. Ways to fix this is to trace the original drawing and close all the gaps or reattach everything, this is a long and tedious job that runs into many hours. Fusion360 does have an add on that will evaluate the DXF and close the gaps well most of them. but other programs will not automatically fix the DXF.
What i am saying here just because you buy a CNC lather, mill, router 3d printer you have to know CAD and files and how it all works. Programs are getting smarter and smarter but the smarter they are the more expensive they become.
For this reason i do not see in the near future any computer controlled machines as a common item in a hobby workshop.
you got to know DWG, DXF, STL, IGS, SVG and a bunch of file formats and how each and every program reads them.


  • Yesterday at 5:34 PM
  • I THINK WE ARE TALKING DIFFERENT THINGS I AM TALKING ABOUT A PROXXON MF70 MILL NOTHING CNC THE Z AXIX IS THE DEPT OF CUT THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. GOD BLESS STAY SAFA ALL DON

  • ok the topic did go to CNC mills but don tossed in a different off topic question well not off topic it still pertained to a mill just not a CNC mill.
    No one answered his question maybe because we do not know exactly what he is asking. My guess is how to set the Z on his PROXXON MF70 MILL or the mill itself is moving up and down or don is trying to move the piece by hand. Let me Google the mill in question and see what is going on with it

 
@Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) , sorry to say but I don't think you are being 100% fair / kind to Don here. The topic of the thread: "I thinking about getting into milling!" does not suggest anything about CNC at all.

That said, Don's question is as you say not totally clear. My own guess was that Don was experiencing an issue with z-axis because the surface of workpiece not being parallel to the surface of the X-Y table. Maybe Don can elaborate a little?
 
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ok don lets explore your problem that the Z is all over the place
the cranks on the table are your X and Y the Z is at the top and moves the head up or down. The info does say the table and vertical column are threaded so they can not move on their own or should not move. What i do not see is a "lock" for the vertical column so when you move the head to say make a cut you should be able to lock that head in position. Maybe by taking to deep of a cut you are moving the head ever so slightly.
it could be the tool is just not made for heavy cutting, that is why a mill like a Bridgeport weighs a ton so the cutting operation does not rattle the machines settings.
I have said it once and i will say it again these hobby tool or tabletop tools are made for light duty and many guys tend to push the machines beyond what they are made to do. Vibration from the cutting action may be rattling the machines settings.

personally i looked into these mills and finally settled on using my drill press with an XY table. you can not pick up my drill press it is a heavy machine.
If you can pick up your machine and throw it across the room it is not for heavy duty work.

mill1.JPG
 
PoulD said:
@Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) , sorry to say but I don't think you are being 100% fair / kind to Don here. The topic of the thread: "I thinking about getting into milling!" does not suggest anything about CNC at all.

That said, Don's question is as you say not totally clear. My own guess was that Don was experiencing an issue with x-axis because the surface of workpiece not being parallel to the surface of the X-Y table. Maybe Don can elaborate a little?
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i agree so i am trying to help don here he was not clear on what was going on.

you are right the topic did start as just getting into a mill the topic just drifted to CNC
 
OK LET ME TRY TO EXPLAIN MY QUESTION, HERE FIRST I DO NOT OWN A PROXXON MF 70 MILL, JUST THINKING COMING TO TERMS WITH AGE AND EYESIGHT, I HAVE A VANDA-LAY MILL WORKS OF A DREMEL JUST OK WHEN MILLING FOR KEEL NOTHES I SET THE Z AXIS FOR THE NOTCH CAN NOT KEEP THE DEPTH OF CUT THE SAME DEPTH ESPECIALLY WHEN HAVING TO MOVE THE PIECE THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED ON THE LE ROCHEFORT SO NOW GOING TO A LOT OF SEMI/SCRATCH BUILDS AKA KRIS FROM POLAND SO NOT TO SURE WHAT I AM GOING TO DO THAT IS THE QUESTION HOPE I AM EXPRESSING MY SELF BTW DON ROBINSON ANSWERED MY QUESTION IT MAKES SENCE TO KEEP TRACK OF THE ROTATION ON THE HANDELS. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE ALL DON
 
ot1138 said:
But I have no idea where to start. Obviously, this would be for model ship making so I don't want to break the bank or go overboard on equipment I'll never need. But I think it would be pretty handy to be able to fabricate my own lumber and cut pieces, either manually or computer assisted.

Where should the rank beginner go to get started? Also curious if there are equipment recommendations.
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I would start with a first rate practicum on 3D cnc milling and printing. My recommendation is to consider lauckstreetshipyard.com and Bob Hunt’s practicum “Using 3D Technology for Model Shipbuilding.” There is more to consider than just equipment. This practicum will take you through the computer software requirements as well as help with equipment selections. Bob Hunt is an expert in the use of cnc milling and 3D printing for ship modeling and the practicum is focused on the beginner. You should absolutely go through this practicum before you purchase anything!
 
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