initial Soleil royal using the heller 1/100 scale kit (post prepared in advance)

I'm referring to those on both side of the appolo panel and the one between windows. Guy gave 3 choices for their colors in the document and now I wonder if the one for appolo can't be of 2 colors for the initial SR.
 
Well, you would have a background, or field color. Typically, this is either a lighter shade or blue or red ocher. What Guy is referring to as beige, in the following, reads to me as faded red ocher:

CC8A5055-1FFA-4D5A-A5CE-E5DCE0BDC9B5.jpeg

The so-called ventre-de-biche color is more closely aligned with this Raw Sienna pigment I used, seen here before the Van Dyke Brown washcoat:

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For the very first Soleil Royal, an excellent example of the pale French Blue can be found in this model of Le Francoise:

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It should even verge on a faint tint of green, as the color was originally derived from copper oxides, but it is a very tricky color to approximate correctly.
 
Wasn't the berain drawing separated in 2 to show 2 propositions from berain? Can't beige still work for the outside of a initial SR pillars instead of red ocher?
 
Well, again, I’m not sure what you are referring to as “beige.” The outside of the port upper balcony rail is, if anything, colored to suggest “gold.” It seems to me that the rest of the port half of the drawing is not suggesting color at all, but just grey-scale to give the drawing a sense of depth and shading.
 
But, then the figure of Europe is more of a bronze color and the Asia figure is that beige-y color of the railing.

It is a matter of opinion, but I do not think it is likely that a capital ship like SR would have employed a blah color like beige to any great extent.
 
Still haven't received the heller kit yet, but floating barroque arrived today and I order patrick villiers book too (I managed to get much more than I'd hope for christmas, 3 model and 3 books, tho I hope I won't have the same postal trouble with the christmas models).
les-saint-philippe-et-les-vaisseaux-de-1er-rang-de-louis-xiii-a-louis-xiv.jpg

I didn't expected floating baroque to focus on ships from other time periods beside just the XVIIth century, the drawings are going to inspire and there's one for the soleil royal stern too with a pic of hans bosma model.(who seem to be the heller kit with the from the box stern, I think it show even with the kit innacuracies, you can still make a verry good looking model from the box, so I wouldn't say it's a junk kit).
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I wonder what you guys think of the stern apollo pediment with white clouds for the 1669/71 version. I'm unsure if the soleil royal drawing from page 69 is from 1669 tho, tho me, it seem to represent the refit soleil royal with its closed quarter galleries
 
I up for my last question and I'll ask another one: can I use post refit soleil royal to fill the blank for the intial one? Parick villiers book already arrived today. Quite a lot of drawings/paintings of english, french and dutch vessels, including the vasa (wich will be useful, I'm tempted by the airfix kit).
Thanks for your answers!
 
Some news: because the mondial relay doesn't take the package, my parents have to make it send directly home by the "poste", I won't get it before the end of the year... I hope I'm not bothering anyone with all my questions by the way.
 
The following is excerpted from D.M.J. Henry, Sur la Vie et Oeuvres de P. Puget, published in 1853. It is not annotated in the modern sense, and the author only mentions his indebtedness to a friend of his at the archives, who uncovered the following description of SR as she first was:


it is a duty and a real pleasure to express to this laborious writer all my gratitude for the obliging competition which he has kindly lent me by searching, in the archives of the Ministry of the Navy, the documents which could not be furnished to me by the archives of the port of Toulon, and sending me textually a copy of the various pieces of Colbert's official correspondence which I use in this work.



To this seems to be reduced the apparent modification made in the profusion of ornamental riches, the composition of the painting always retaining a great and noble character. It may be, however, that the absence of ornaments in the vault was less akin to the modification demanded by the minister, than to the quality of the vessel, which being of second rank did not admit so much luxury of decoration. The area that bears the name of the vessel, covered with beautiful arabesques, is, at the Sun Royal, supported by four baths indicating the seasons that the star of the day shares in its annual race, because it must be noted, everything is allegorical in the decoration of this building whose name itself alluded to the young monarch. The succession of seasons begins with the left, where winter is represented under the appearance of an old man wrapped in a drapery covering his head and body; the other three seasons are graceful figures of women carrying on their heads a basket full of flowers or fruits that characterize them. The gallery extends from one end of the stern to the other, and its two extremities serve as the seat of two beautiful figures representing warriors of lesser proportions than those of the first vessel. These warriors, whose defensive armor differs as well as attitude, still refer to the two great regions that the sun illuminates. The east, on the starboard side, had its helmet adorned with floating ostrich feathers, while the crest of the port warrior, composed of feathers of other birds, formed a broad plume framing with great taste all the top of the head . With the hands of the two hands, which were near the ship, on the cornice of the gallery, which served as their seat, both of them held up the arm on the opposite side, so that the hand served as support.
P. PUGET. 39
next to the top of the board. These sides are formed of an inverted console whose notch accommodated at the reentrant part of the flanks of the building, at the height of the second battery. A bust of a woman carrying on the head a basket of flowers for one, fruit for the other, comes out of the small winding of these consoles. The great bas-relief, left blank in the project of decoration of the first vessel, but drawn in this one which had already received its name, represents the young king under the figure of Phoebus, driving his chariot harnessed of the four mythological horses launched at a gallop, and in the ancient style, that is to say, thrown two on the right and two on the left. The coronation of this beautiful stern, of better taste than that of the other vessel, is formed by two figures of women seated with their legs extended along the very slightly arched border of this coronation, and turned on their hips so to present face all the upper body. Their costume still indicates in them the symbol of the East and the West. Nobly draped one by one, the figure of the west holds in his right hand a long scepter leaning on his shoulder, while in front of her, at her feet, a horse with a bristling, floating mane, with her head held high, her mouth open, and her nostrils wide, looks at her, neighing. To starboard, the symbol of the east carelessly holds in its hands, in front of it, a vase from which rises a plant apparently indicating that of perfumes. At the foot of this figure and symmetrically with that of the opposite side, is lying a tiger that a necklace passed around his neck seems to show as tame and submissive animal. This remarkable composition is, as we see, only an ingenious flattery by which Puget celebrated in his own way the glory of the young monarch, who at the same time dominates the East and the West, the East by the establishment created or
40 ON LIFE AND WORKS
encouraged, (1) the West by the power of its weapons, and making its domination accept with love. An immense royal crown placed between the two symbolic figures, in the middle of the arch of the coronation, serves as a support for the only stern lantern. As in the other vessel, the whole surface of the painting is still noticeable by the profusion of details of the accessory ornamentation: L-stamped cartridges, crisscrossed, faces of radiant sun, fleur-de-lis medallions, strips of lambrequins between all the carvings of which is showing a fleur de lys, and this.
The design of the Sun-Royal still bears, as we see, several great figures; that was splendor, brilliancy, magnificence, it flattered the vanity of the king, who was as dazzled by sumptuousness as by victory, and Colbert, whatever his conviction, was not a man to be opposed to. his master on this article: the large figures, a little modified as to size, were still tolerated despite the formal disapproval of sailors, despite their incessant claims. However, Puget, in order to remove the inconvenience of too great a weight, had decided to hollow out as much as possible these masses of wood, as we see by those of those figures which still remain. Ten years had elapsed in this sort of struggle since the great minister had engaged the great artist to diminish the proportions of these ornaments, when the Sun-Royal received the decoration which I have just described. As this sculpture work was executed in Brest and that this port lacked or (1)
from or (1) East India Company established in 1664; new company of France Equinoxiale created in 1664; protection and encouragement to other Indian companies.
P. PUGET, 41
To be able to render Puget's thoughts worthily, the minister had to send some from Paris. On the 21st of December, 1684, the Marquis de Seignelay, to whom Colbert, his father, had delegated the affairs of the navy, wrote to the intendant at the port of Brest, M. de Seuil:
"I thought that the sculpture of the Sun-Royal was very advanced. Since you lack skill workers for the great figures, I will send you from here to the most; but "it would be necessary to avoid the defeats which are recounted in the ornaments of the stern of the Royal Louis, where it has been remarked, that these large and heavy figures can only emancipate him much in his navigation. I admit that the ornaments must correspond to the grandeur and magnificence of the king, who appears in these superb bodies of buildings, but we must also beware that they are in convenient. "



And so, Aurelien, while I can’t yet verify that this description actually has its roots in authentic original documentation, it is the most detailed description of the ship’s ornament that I have yet found. As far as I can say, this was Berain’s inspiration.
 
Thanks, so this his a description of the first one, I came back to guy M document and Berain only worked on the refit soleil royal, for the first one, it's Le brun and puget so I'm unsure on using Berain work as inspiration for the first soleil royal, tho guy M in his document refere to ship drawn by other artist.
 
Thinking about it, I remember Berain had to keep as much as possible of the 1st soleil royal on the second one so I wonder, if it's the case, I can't still use berain work as an inspiration, knowing there are some issues with his drawing. Per example, I could use Berain/vary beakhead to fill in the gaps for the 1st soleil royal
soleil-royal3.jpg

There doesn't seem to be much drawings of puget beakhead from the 1660'/70 period.
 
Yes - I feel like I’m repeating this quite a lot, but Berain doesn’t come into the picture, as Director of Ornament to the arsenals until the late 1680’s, and in an official capacity after LeBrun’s death in 1690.

The original allegoric inspiration for the ship’s decor in 1668-69 came from LeBrun. Those ideas were shaped into a coherent design by Puget. Guy Maher asserts that Puget’s involvement with the design of SR’s ornament hinged upon contracts for marble sculpture work - Puget’s first love - at Versailles.

In the first several iterations of the great ships - SR and the RL - the essential allegory is carried over from one construction to the next. The style and arrangement of supporting ornament, on the other hand, changes quite dramatically, becoming increasingly more sober over a thirty year period.

Berain’s work was very likely a modest re-working of Puget’s original design, which took account for certain specific changes to ship sterns that evolved over the 20 year period between her launching and her refit.

It is my belief that the shape of SR’s refit stern, the framing, remained largely consistent with the construction, as launched. Evidence for this can be seen by the fact that Berain drew the earlier lower transom, where the wing transom that defines the widest point is above the stern chase guns. Also, the carved ceiling from the grand council chamber was preserved and re-installed in the refit ship. This suggests that the width and tumblehome of the refit ship remained constant, as before, above the stern counter. Add to that the likelihood that the continental figure of Europe was likely preserved and reused on the refit ship, which suggests that the coronation of the ship was likely the same shape.

As of this current date in history, though, there are no coherent drawings of SR, showing her before her refit, that are known to still be in existence. The only thing one can do to represent this earliest period is to make an educated guess based on the Puget drawings of the Monarque and the refit Dauphin Royal, and the VdV drawings of La Reyne and Le Terrible from 1672. The Girardon drawings of the DR of 1668 are also instructive, as is the Van Beecq portrait of the RL.
 
Thinking about it, I remember Berain had to keep as much as possible of the 1st soleil royal on the second one so I wonder, if it's the case, I can't still use berain work as an inspiration, knowing there are some issues with his drawing. Per example, I could use Berain/vary beakhead to fill in the gaps for the 1st soleil royal
soleil-royal3.jpg

There doesn't seem to be much drawings of puget beakhead from the 1660'/70 period.
SR’s initial beakhead very likely was exactly as you see here for La Reyne:

DC8BD265-A09C-41B0-A74C-54C7D34AB45E.jpeg

The Monarque:

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La Royal Therese:

FC3B23E0-35AD-426E-9E26-5B83A6751FD7.jpeg

And this other un-identified portrait:

70E6B84F-3B0B-4283-8BD8-8064C5991799.jpeg

The bows of the early French ships were lower-slung and more elongated with headrails faying into the duck’s breast bow, in a very similar way to the prevalent Dutch style. Laurent Hubac, himself, was a product of Dutch training.
 
I was a bit confuse at the moment, since Berain "simply" adapted Puget work, it might can be used as an inspiration (at least, how the ornament or the space in the beakhead looked[I'm not sure of its english or french name, tho the space is empty on the tanneron and heller model, despite heller having access to Berain drawings]). I'll use the drawings you posted as a basis for the general shape of the parts I need to add to correct the kit.
 
A thing I wonder about berain drawing is why he draw moldings on the 3d battery in the beakhead drawing, but not on its quarter gallery one and the port holes seem to be in a different style for both drawings too.
soleil12.jpg

source: https://5500.forumactif.org/t1981p140-soleil-royal-1692
I wonder if this doesn't make the thesis that they were propositions for the refit work. I started reading patrick villier and floating baroque, until I got floating baroque, I didn't expected it to be so broad(and it provide an inspiration for a roman trirema, I'm tempted to do one too). I asked my parents if they got dremel tools, they think my dad and grandad still do, I'll have to ask them next week.
 
If you are referring to the open space between the upper and lower knees of the head, in English this is referred to as the trailboard. I adapted Berain’s design to work within what Heller provided. Unfortunately, the tail of the figurehead intrudes into this space and disrupts the pattern. Consequently, I chose to carve a year marker for the refit as an appropriate contextual marker for the project:

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CC984991-586D-49FD-83C2-AFACC93C3F86.jpeg

Now, one of THE best models I have yet seen of a fully framed First-Rate from the 1660’s is Tony Devroude’s model of Le Dauphin Royal of 1668. To this day, it remains a work in progress. Below are a few pictures from a two-part series of articles he wrote for the Nautical Research Journal that describe the research basis of the project and its early development into a model.

According to my eye and understanding of this early time, his framing captures so many things correctly:

image.jpg

Here is the draft he developed for the bow and head structure. It shows well the differences in structure between this early time and the later 1680’s of Beraine:

image.jpg

It is hard to make out, but his trailboard is a series of fleurs that are framed within circular wreathes. If I had to guess, I would say that he took inspiration from the Album de Colbert for these details.

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As I say, the head structure is significantly different for this earlier time. I don’t think it is impossible to adapt this to the Heller hull, but it will be a tricky juncture where the headrails meet the hull. The Heller kit does not have the super pronounced “duck’s breast” tumblehome of this area, which is best captured in this closeup:

BB47CA24-BD2A-4A22-8EEA-6804475B21AD.jpeg

As for the discrepancies between the bow and stern Berain drawings, this is another good example of the inconsistencies present among known groupings of Berain drawings. Likewise, the Berain bow drawing makes no accommodation for the forecastle deck; it simply does not exist in that drawing, yet SR always had a forecastle deck. As a result, the monogrammed cartouches between quarter deck guns, which Heller chose to represent between main deck guns, must necessarily be absent on Berain’s bow drawing because there is no place for them to exist.
 
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