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Prins willem 1651

E

efraimrofiz

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Sep 19, 2019
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שלום לכולם, שמי מריה. רכשתי את הספר הנפלא על הספינה פרינס וילם בהולנדית לפני מספר שנים והצלחתי ללמוד הרבה מידע, אבל לא מספיק כדי לבנות את הספינה בסגנון האדמירליות. אשמח מאוד אם למישהו יש מידע/שרטוטים על אופן בניית המסגרות של הספינה.1000012114.jpg1000012111.jpg1000012112.jpg1000012113.jpg
 
Thanks, Im still trying to crack this drawing. I came across a repeating pattern of frames in one section and I thought I already understood it, but then the pattern changed completely.. actually, its a bit reminiscent of the wasa frame style, although not exactly.
 
There are several framing patterns used throughout history, and as you go from midships toward the bow or the stern, the pattern will change. Luckily you have good drawings of the Prins Willem. I have Ketting's book and a the Corel model of Prins Willem that will eventually get built, but the book did not come with the fold-out drawings. Can anyone here please flat scan those drawings for those of us who are building Prins Willem?
 
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I get it, there's a pattern here that comes to a section of a few frames and then changes completely. Now I really think it's similar to a wasa style of construction. Take for example the pictures taken from the museum demonstrating wasa construction
I would like to have your opinion
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This is the classic method for Dutch ships... Batavia was built in this way and so was 7 Provencien as far as I know. After some searching on the internet I came across a short construction log of WASA in which I found a photo of this drawing. Now I am almost certain that the Prins Willem was built almost like wasa..1000012297.jpg
 
What I can't understand...is why the book shows the classic method of Dutch shipbuilding and not the specific method used to build the Prins Willem? This is supposed to be a book about this ship only, not a general investigation of Dutch ships.
 
efraimrofiz said:
What I can't understand...is why the book shows the classic method of Dutch shipbuilding and not the specific method used to build the Prins Willem? This is supposed to be a book about this ship only, not a general investigation of Dutch ships.
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It could be that the specific pattern of timbers for Prins Willem is lost to history, and the standard Dutch method for framing is a best guess, and all we have to go on. We OFTEN have to make assumptions in model building when a lack of information presents itself, and it the nature of model building of much older vessels from the 17th century can only be an interpretation based on what limited information is available. In other words, you have no choice but to make guesses when creating features in your model if it is pre-1800. It is not comfortable, but one has to deal with that.
 
Hello,I contacted the rijsmuseum and it seems they also have no information about the method used to build the Prins Willem.. But a professor told me that there were more than two traditional Dutch construction methods that used to built the ships, so you are right that the information about the ship has really been lost. The question is if I build a model of the ship according to the method we know, will it be an authentic and historical model? Or a completely unhistorical imitation that is just for beauty...
 
efraimrofiz said:
Hello,I contacted the rijsmuseum and it seems they also have no information about the method used to build the Prins Willem.. But a professor told me that there were more than two traditional Dutch construction methods that used to built the ships, so you are right that the information about the ship has really been lost. The question is if I build a model of the ship according to the method we know, will it be an authentic and historical model? Or a completely unhistorical imitation that is just for beauty...
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No model we build after 400 years will be completely accurate. Don't make perfect the enemy of the good. Even the most accurate museum models are interpretation based on best knowledge available. Your model will be considered historic and authentic if you gather as much information as you can regarding the vessel's construction, use good judgement in filling in the gaps, and build a detailed model. The models that do not take advantage of available information and make huge simplifications and shortcuts in design features are the ones you can compare to toys.
 
שלום, יצרתי קשר עם מוזיאון הרייס ונראה שגם להם אין מידע על השיטה בה בניית ה"פרינס וילם". אבל פרופסור אמר לי שהיו יותר משתי שיטות בנייה הולנדיות מסורתיות ששימשו לבניית הספינות, אז אתה צודק שהמידע על הספינה אבד. השאלה היא אם אבנה דגם של הספינה לפי השיטה שאנחנו מכירים, האם זה יהיה דגם אותנטי והיסטורי? או חיקוי לא היסטורי לחלוטין שנועד רק ליופי...
 
I agree with every word you said, models that only show the beauty of the ship from the outside but are not built at all like in reality, in my opinion, their beauty goes down the drain. about the prise willem, I will start making drawings as faithfully as possible to reality (which will take quite a while) and I will send the construction log here...on another topic, I have been working on drawings for the Flying Dutchman for a year now. If it were built in reality, how would it be built, It is complex and challenging, some will think it is childish, but it is a very beautiful ship.
 
Hi Efraim,

This is the right place to find out how this ship was built. There are two people here who are currently building using the old method. That's @Maarten and myself.
Maarten:

A Dutch Fluyt in shell first, reconstructing the "Ghost ship" scale 1:36

For a long time I already want to build a Dutch fluyt and had been looking for the best possible candidate. The shape of the fluyt is extraordenary and directly recognizable with its bollow stern, the Jelo of ships. It was the workhorse of the 17th century when the Dutch dominated shipping in...
shipsofscale.com
Mine:

Hohenzollernmodell 1660-1670 Scale 1/75 POF build by Stephan Kertész (Steef66)

Welcome to my account of the Dutch two-decker in POF. A while ago I bought myself a book of the writer Heinrich Winter, "A Dutch two-decker". You can find the book review here...
shipsofscale.com
and your Prins Willem, I'm building here on frames

VOC ship The Prins Willem (scale 1:75) Year 1651

Hi Every one. :) My name is Stephan I'm 54 years old. Excuse me for my bad English sometimes, I'll try to write it, please correct me when I make mistakes. It will be a good lesson to me. This will my first log here on SOS. 2 years ago, before this ship I started with model building. My first...
shipsofscale.com

this ship was build in the shell first method. That means the hull was made first and then the timber came into the hull. Not impossible to build a ship like that but difficult. Better to build it with frames and for that you need good drawings. I got a lot of stuff and can send that to you with Wetransfer. Just send me a Private message with your email and I send you everything I got of this ship, including the drawings from Corel.
Maybe @Ab Hoving can give you a helping hand too, he is the expert in Dutch ships here.
By the way, you are going to build a magnificent ship. What scale are you planning?
 
One addition to this. The model of the Prins Willem of which the drawings are made is most probably not an original underwater hull shape as the model was build as a pond ship, which means an actual floating model. Therfore the models hull shape could have been modified to fit its purpose as a floating model.
Secondly I don't know if the original Prins Willem being build as shell first as she was a ship build for the VOC chamber of Middelburg in Zeeland which is in the southern part of the Netherlands where they used a more frame first approach.
Maybe @Ab Hoving can shed more light on this.
 
Maarten said:
One addition to this. The model of the Prins Willem of which the drawings are made is most probably not an original underwater hull shape as the model was build as a pond ship, which means an actual floating model. Therfore the models hull shape could have been modified to fit its purpose as a floating model.
Secondly I don't know if the original Prins Willem being build as shell first as she was a ship build for the VOC chamber of Middelburg in Zeeland which is in the southern part of the Netherlands where they used a more frame first approach.
Maybe @Ab Hoving can shed more light on this.
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What sort of changes would a floating model require? Is there some sort of shape change required to compensate for a property of scale, such as water density or surface tension?
 
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