Samuel 1650 – a Dutch mid-17th century trader

In Griboyedov's poem "Woe from Wit" there is a character named Chatsky. He also ran away from everything... "Give me a carriage, a carriage..." Run away from everything - from the opinions of others, hide from the whole world. In modern language, this would look like: "Stop the Earth! I want to get out!"
I apologize for the lyrical digression from the topic of the thread. And to the moderators of this forum for the possible incorrectness of the Google translator.

В поэме Грибоедова "Горе от ума" есть персонаж Чацкий. Он тоже бежал от всего... "Карету мне, карету..." Сбежать от всего - от мнения окружающих, спрятаться от всего мира. Говоря современным языком это выглядело бы как: "Остановите Землю! Я хочу выйти!"
Прошу прощения за лирическое отступление от темы топика. И у модераторов этого форума за возможную некорректность переводчика Гугл.
 
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Thank you. I guess from our fruitful correspondence that you have a rather humanistic profile by education and tastes, which now seems to be confirmed. On the one hand, I fear that this is too deep a metaphor probably for all of us, nevertheless, which also has the advantage of being able to terminate our nice chat so far on the matter of the specific language used by the members. Thank you once again.

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I am deeply convinced that the author of the topic will not accept my comparison in the message above with something personal.
We have bread - someone has stale bread, and someone has a sweet bun with poppy seeds.
It seems to me that we are all a little tired and are waiting for emotional spectacles. Never stop and continue! Your screenshots from personal archives in your topics are simply magnificent! We are all waiting for your new graphics and investigations!
Good luck to you in your endeavors!

Я глубоко убежден в том, что автор топика не примет мое сравнение в сообщении выше с чем-то личностным.
Хлеб у нас есть - у кого-то черствый, а у кого-то сладкая булочка с маком.
Мы все, как мне кажется, немного утомились и ждем эмоциональных зрелищ. Никогда не останавливайтесь и продолжайте! Ваши скриншоты из личных архивов в ваших топиках просто великолепны! Мы все ждем вашей новой графики и расследований!
Успехов вам в ваших начинаниях!
 
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Never stop and continue! Your screenshots from personal archives in your topics are simply magnificent! We are all waiting for your new graphics and investigations!

Frankly, I've been doing it more and more reluctantly for some time now, and even somehow the most profound metaphors don't help. Nevertheless, thank you for making the attempt.

Hmm, it's quite striking that hardly anyone is seen when really important and potentially useful things are being shown. In contrast, a crowd immediately gathers and ‘everyone’ wants to speak up when such essentially irrelevant matters are discussed, such as the language of speech on matters for which they clearly show no interest. And it is precisely those who are not seen here at all on other occasions, or those who are unable to say ‘thank you’ for the effort put into the explanations given even to their individual questions, who are the loudest. Yes, it really is a puzzling phenomenon or perhaps some kind of magic.

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You judge others too easily.
Do you know, do I know, what is important to others, what is less important to others? Who decides what is really important and what is not? You, me, the majority, God?
Certainly not me, I am not the measure of all things.
 
My last words left to you Waldemar. Once I criticized a comment of yours in my log. That did not go down well with you and apparently you have no need for others' opinions. A person like you can easily be described as a narcissist. Also when I read your words above again.

Narcissism:

A person with narcissism has an exaggerated sense of self-worth and self-importance. They experience an inflated sense of self-importance. Narcissistic people are highly focused on themselves and their own needs. They often show little empathy (empathy) for others and consider themselves above everyone else. In some cases, narcissists use other people to benefit themselves. As a result, not only the narcissist themselves suffer, but also the people around them. If you call them on it or criticize them, they may become very angry or they may pretend that they don't care.

It is important to know that not everyone with narcissistic traits has a narcissistic personality disorder. Narcissism refers to someone with an inflated ego. Narcissistic personality disorder is a deep-seated form of narcissism that is listed in the DSM-5 (the psychologists' manual)
. People with narcissistic personality disorder often need the admiration and attention to consider themselves worthwhile.

Sincerely,
Your admirer.

ps: Received your Nobel Prize yet?
 
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You judge others too easily.

Oh, the gracious one has spoken, kindly allowing someone to give himself explanations. Isn't the expression ‘thank you’ in your dictionary? And in matters of easy personal judgements, have you already made other users aware on the issue, such as the one in the post below yours?


My last words left to you Waldemar.

You really couldn't make me happier. So farewell forever, Steef66.


This is some sort of unreal absurdity.
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Dear Sirs! You have completely strayed from the topic that Valdemar is trying to express here! Guys, a person is trying to express his thoughts on this vessel and is waiting for corrections from you if he is wrong and support, help and advice! That's all!

Дорогие Господа! что-то Вы совсем ушли от темы, которую тут старается выразить Вальдемар! Парни, человек пытается выразить свои мысли по данному судну и ждет от Вас поправок если он ошибается и поддержки помощи и совета! Вот и все!;)
 
My last words left to you Waldemar. Once I criticized a comment of yours in my log. That did not go down well with you and apparently you have no need for others' opinions. A person like you can easily be described as a narcissist. Also when I read your words above again.

Narcissism:

A person with narcissism has an exaggerated sense of self-worth and self-importance. They experience an inflated sense of self-importance. Narcissistic people are highly focused on themselves and their own needs. They often show little empathy (empathy) for others and consider themselves above everyone else. In some cases, narcissists use other people to benefit themselves. As a result, not only the narcissist themselves suffer, but also the people around them. If you call them on it or criticize them, they may become very angry or they may pretend that they don't care.

It is important to know that not everyone with narcissistic traits has a narcissistic personality disorder. Narcissism refers to someone with an inflated ego. Narcissistic personality disorder is a deep-seated form of narcissism that is listed in the DSM-5 (the psychologists' manual)
. People with narcissistic personality disorder often need the admiration and attention to consider themselves worthwhile.

Sincerely,
Your admirer.

ps: Received your Nobel Prize yet?
Spyker. Kop. :cool:
 
This is the second, and the last notice!

Gentlemen, once again I appeal to you not to resort to personal attacks. The forum is first and foremost a discussion on a given topic. Provide facts and evidence, express your opinion. There is no need to prove anything by offending each other.

If you cannot behave within the bounds of decency and the rules of the forum, I will have no choice other than to be forced to close this thread.
 
This is the second, and the last notice!

Gentlemen, once again I appeal to you not to resort to personal attacks. The forum is first and foremost a discussion on a given topic. Provide facts and evidence, express your opinion. There is no need to prove anything by offending each other.

If you cannot behave within the bounds of decency and the rules of the forum, I will be forced to close this thread.


That's fine. This is the definitive end of the modern doctrine of Dutch shipbuilding ‘by eye’ anyway, and not even hateful personal attacks will change that anymore.


A letter from Ab Hoving to Alexander Ivanov published on 30 September 2024:

https://www.shipmodeling.ru/phpbb/v...&sid=0b2c21b5d02795c31ad33c7f91614e22#p489677

Ab Hoving to Alexander Ivanov.jpg
 
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WALDAMERE YOUR THREAD AND ANOTHER MAKE MY DAY AND HAS ALWAYS DONE SO AS I HAVE STATED SO, SO MANY TIMES THIS TO ME IS TAKING ANOTHE MUCH DEELAYED COLLEGE COURSEW PLEASE CONTINUE SO MUCH TO LEARN HERE BOY WISH MODERATORS COULD CONTRIBHUTE TO THIS DISCUSSION WHAT ABOUT IT UWE. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE ALL DON
 
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Despite the passage of quite a considerable amount of time, no one has yet requested a translation into ‘mandatory’ English of Ab Hoving's statement quoted above in Dutch, together with its translation into Russian. For the sake of those who have problems with language skills and the use of translators, I have decided to help them by producing the expected translation (see below).

At this point, I would also like to add that I am very pleased with this quoted statement, albeit only expressed privately, as it confirms that the results of my efforts in the investigation ultimately proved pertinent and useful.

The satisfaction of such a state of affairs is all the greater because my research was carried out in spite of a corruption attempt to stop it (although I do not intend to make a scandal out of it, nevertheless I must say that I was offered a bribe in the form of invitations to symposia in exchange for the practical withdrawal of my activity, apparently considered by the ‘lobbyist(s)’ to be a threat to modern publications in the field by today's very well-known authors).

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Excerpt from Ab Hoving's letter to Alexander Ivanov in its original form, published on 30 September 2024:

Kort geleden was er een Poolse wetenschapper, Waldemar Gurgle, die via 'reverse engineering' heeft kunnen analyseren welke geometrische methoden er in Nederland werden toegepast om schepen te ontwerpen. Weliswaar leidde dat nog niet tot mooi uitgewerkte lijnenenplannen zoals in jouw boek, maar dat de geometrische curven gebruikten is duidelijk.


English translation:

Recently a Polish [scientist], Waldemar Gurgul, was able to analyse through “reverse engineering” the geometric methods used to design ships in the Netherlands. Admittedly, this has not yet led to nicely designed line plans as in your book, but the fact that geometric curves were used is clear.

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Once again, I offer my sincere thanks to Ab Hoving for his support and strong stimulation to continue my efforts in this field, as well as for his final positive assessment of my work.

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Dear Friends

How I missed the entire subject of the Samuel, only the gods will know, but missed it I did. And with it I missed out on the single most significant and groundbreaking scientific study of a Dutch shipwreck to date. There are so many aspects to this study which tick the correct boxes:

1. It is the proverbial "breath of fresh air" which finally breaks the stagnation which has for so long suffocated the study and interpretation of Dutch Naval Archeology.

2. It offers a clear path forward unencumbered by the works of Witsen and Van Yk - which for so long, have been believed to have been the only two sources of reference according to which research needs to be conducted.

3. It shows the courage to stand up to and not be influenced by the advocates of the abovementioned doctrine.

4. It is sympathetic to the profound effect that "corrections" can have on the ultimate shape of a hull and acknowledges that if certain corrections have to be made, it has to be kept to an absolute minimum. What is after all the point of having a complete underwater hull if actual archeological findings are changed into preconceived ideas of what is right and wrong?

5. It shows the conviction of self-belief to dismiss the "compulsory" length/width ratio of Witsen/Van Yk applied so judiciously to all Dutch ships of the 16th and 17th centuries. This alone should be applauded from the highest mountains!

@Waldemar Waldemar, this is indeed a project which you can rightly lay claim to as a personal achievement. For the first time I sense a new ideology at work an ideology which finally has me excited about building a Dutch ship again.

@donfarr Don. my friend, I'm back!
 
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Oh my... If anything has surprised me lately, it is your entry. Thank you very much, Heinrich, precisely above all for the long overdue positive emotions experienced here. I also admit that the greatest pleasure is the potential usefulness of the results of this rather arduous quest.

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I will take this opportunity to draw attention to other presentations on the North Continental/Dutch way of shipbuilding. They are no less valuable because they reveal a delightful diversity in the approach and practical implementation of shipbuilding projects by the builders/designers of the period, something that has hitherto actually been unconscious or unrecognised in the conceptual perspective. At the same time, it is diversity in unity (this is probably also the guiding idea of the European Union?), because all these design methods shown so far have a common denominator, allowing the already clear distinction of a method, which can probably quite aptly be called North Continental/Dutch, from other methods or ways of ship design. Admittedly, there has been talk so far of a “Dutch” method, but until now I don't think anyone has really been able to define this conceptually.

More specifically, one can point to the smaller number of principal sweeps making up the contour of the frames, compared to the “competitive” Mediterranean/English method (that is, usually two sweeps as opposed to usually three, not counting the curves of the ship's bottom and possible reconciling sweeps), however, quite often or systematically of variable radius (except the simplest designs), and — equally importantly — a different order of design. Somewhat simplifying, while in the Mediterranean/English method the hull body proper was designed first, only to be combined, as it were, with the keel assembly in the next stage, in the North Continental/Dutch method it was the other way round: one started with the hull bottom, which was the design base, and this irrespective of the carpentry way of the execution of a project (be it shell-first or skeleton-first).

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Perhaps it is too early to draw further generalising conclusions, but it may well be that it was some of the features specific to the North Continental/Dutch method that allowed, upon adopting to the Mediterranean method, somewhere in the first or middle decades of the 17th century, the gradual creation of more sophisticated methods that can collectively be called English moulding. I am referring to the more convenient concept of the actual line of greatest breadth, replacing the hitherto “boca” line from the Mediterranean method, and, following this, the already methodical use of variable radius sweeps in frame contours.

* * *​

Particularly in the context of the value of Witsen's and van Yk's works, I tend to be in favour of reconciling the different sources rather than contrasting them. Hopefully, today's possible interpretative differences regarding these works are probably only the result of some unnecessary misunderstanding. Both works must be regarded as invaluable, reliable and even irreplaceable, it is only necessary to remember that in some respects they are not perfect, because they simply cannot be. It is probably not even possible to create a study that would contain the entirety of any one major issue in a complete and at the same time unambiguously precise manner. Unfortunately, such a painful shortcoming in these two works today is the almost complete omission by their authors of the conceptual aspects of shipbuilding (as opposed to the structural and carpentry aspects), moreover, in accordance with the general trend in that period and in this area, which is so evident in the ‘countless’ shipbuilding contracts oriented precisely on the structural and carpentry aspects.



Thank you again, and to all those interested in this contemplative, risk-free subject matter on an emotional and social level :).


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