Sovereign of the Seas-Deagostini Partwork-1/84 TOTALLY Reworked

Jimsky said:
Absolutely Nigel. I can sign on each and all words. For the most part, this is one of the reasons I am still building from kits. Luck of knowledge properly read plans\drafts make me apart from this method of building models. I grasp a better idea after watching Dr. Mike's video, but still not completely ready. I think, I just need to start it, however afraid it becomes an unstressful adventure. Who knows!??!



You certainly can do better for your Admiral! Always remember there will be another tool you may want to buy, and it may cost more than Falcon... :p Shhh... Hope she didn't read our posts.
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Jim re the first edition Millenium Falcon-I could buy a 36 inch bed metal lathe for the same amount of money:rolleyes:

Kind Regards

Nigel
 
Maarten said:
Just to make it complete see below a picture of the finished model coming from the manual of the deagostini kit. You clearly see it is a totally different model then displayed in their adds, and not just the kit with some extra additions.
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I am wondering if there any place (between the lines) of disclaimer Diagostiny mentioned about the 'model on the manual is not a representation of the actual model you will build' Hence, you cannot see the manual until you are open the box...
 
Given this is a partwork Jim,no box no proper manual just a TV commercial,you would have expected it in the advert like the car adverts for BMW and Merc.ROTFI bought a Doyasha 1/250 plastic kit of the Yamato once,it had such a disclaimer on the box,clearly visible under an electron microscope.Yes the kit was complete garbage.

Regarding Pearwood.All future builds will be in boxwood as Pear will be on the endangered species list by the time I finish Saint-PhilippeROTFROTF

Kind Regards

Nigel
 
NMBROOK said:
If you are serious about going the whole hog with your build I recommend you buy one book that Bill Short recommended to me.It is long out of print,I had to wait a few months for a copy to come up on the German Amazon site second hand.It details the vessel in respect to the historic artwork.Then you have to choose if you wish to model her as Van de Velde the elder depicted or Payne.Both are different.Oh and by the way,the book is only available in German.However the large pictures of these works are indespensible.Only then could you make an informed decision of what to use in the way of fittings.

Kind Regards

Nigel
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Thank you for the head start, Nigel! I speak some German, and will try to locate this book immediately. To keep the decoration simple, would you recommend using some or most of the Amati decoration set? The Deagostini set is too far off on several counts and I am not equipped or skilled at carving, so some shortcuts have to be taken in this area.

I stumbled upon a Czech Model Ship forum (https://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=183&t=46754 ) that yielded some good details.
 
DARIVS ARCHITECTVS said:
Thank you for the head start, Nigel! I speak some German, and will try to locate this book immediately. To keep the decoration simple, would you recommend using some or most of the Amati decoration set? The Deagostini set is too far off on several counts and I am not equipped or skilled at carving, so some shortcuts have to be taken in this area.

I stumbled upon a Czech Model Ship forum (https://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=183&t=46754 ) that yielded some good details.
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I don't know where you are based,I would give serious thoughts to selling the complete collection and just work from the Amati plans you have,You can tweek Amati's design if you wish.I know in the UK there is a Partwork specialist that would probably buy the collection.I just don't see what you will be using in the partwork.The bulkheads will be altered,the bamboo first planking is rubbish and troublesome to work with(I replaced mine with lime) and as you say you plan to buy Amati's casting set.
My build evolved as the magazine came out,if I knew what I know now,I wouldn't have subscribed and would have probably started with Sergal's kit as a base.
I know you probably don't want to hear that,but I am thinking about how you can get what you want and not loose a load of money like I did.As another note,I had no carving experience when I started Sovereign.Inspired by Bill Short's work on his model it was something I decided to teach myself.I do not consider myself a master in the field,not by a long way.

Kind Regards

Nigel
 
NMBROOK said:
I don't know where you are based,I would give serious thoughts to selling the complete collection and just work from the Amati plans you have,You can tweek Amati's design if you wish.I know in the UK there is a Partwork specialist that would probably buy the collection.I just don't see what you will be using in the partwork.The bulkheads will be altered,the bamboo first planking is rubbish and troublesome to work with(I replaced mine with lime) and as you say you plan to buy Amati's casting set.
My build evolved as the magazine came out,if I knew what I know now,I wouldn't have subscribed and would have probably started with Sergal's kit as a base.
I know you probably don't want to hear that,but I am thinking about how you can get what you want and not loose a load of money like I did.As another note,I had no carving experience when I started Sovereign.Inspired by Bill Short's work on his model it was something I decided to teach myself.I do not consider myself a master in the field,not by a long way.

Kind Regards

Nigel
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I am in Minnesota, USA. I had the entire Deagostini kit shipped from the UK from a fellow who never started it. Is the Deagostini or Amati better to start off with in regard to the hull shape? I was thinking of using the Deagostini hull with Amati decorations and modifying the stern to be more like the Peter Pett painting. I would like to hear your opinion on that before I buy.

Since you have already put so much thought into your model, I would like to see the path you took and do a variation off your build. I hear lots of horror stories of working with the bamboo, and have had great success building La Couronne with the Corel supplied linden wood, so I know how to bend that. La Couronne is a smaller 1:100 scale ship, and is the test bed I am using for training. A larger SotS will be far easier for building the hull since the curves are not as tight. Plus, the gun tackle and rigging are larger and easier to fashion. Everything on La Couronne is so teeny tiny. Whatever comes out in the end, I know I'll be happy with it. Any pictures and ideas you can provide will be hungrily devoured. So please post more pictures. This is so much fun.

Best wishes!

Kurt
281 Bulwark Reinforcements Added.jpg20190427_191742.jpg
 
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Kurt firstly the bamboo,it has hard and soft spots to it.It only wants to bend where it is soft not where you want it to bend.Also it is a knightmare to sand.You can't get a fair hull because the soft bits sand far quicker than the hard spots.Replace with lime,it is far easier to work with and not worth the stress over cost saving.
To be honest neither Amati or Deagostini's hull are correct.Remembering back I had issues in that the lower and middle gun deck are too close together to accommodate the two wales.I lowered the lower gun deck slightly and at the same time added to the sheer,the gunports do not have enough arc to them.I then worked upward from there.
My only concern with Amati's decorations is to how they would work with a corrected Deagostini hull.The angle of the stern and the slope of the side galleries are too severe on Amati's design,this may cause issues with castings lining up.My Amati plans are packed in one of the many boxes for our house move so I cannot see if there may be an issue.One thing I would say is that the quality of the Amati castings are far superior to the Mantua group.I bought the Amati figurehead for this model as a guide to carve my own and it is fantastic for what it is.
Unfortunately many pictures of this build have been lost to forum and laptop meltdowns.I had more spare time when I started Sovereign and spent 40 hours a week on the build for one year solid as well as holding down a full time job.
If you really want to follow in my footsteps then I can't provide you with pictures from what I did when,all the build photos left are here,but I could take measurements from my model to help you out.Ultimately you would need to build the Deagostini skeleton up and I could give you heights from the keel to the rows of gunports,heights of bulwarks etc.From this you could adapt the build as you went along.Also I could tell you the rake and position of my stern etc in relation to the keel.I even altered the angle of the tiller!
We would end up recreating my build log with your model in effect,however yours wouldn't need reworking after you had assembled something!The discussion on the Czech forum follows the lines of the thought process I went through on this build.
You La Couronne is a great build,you do have the experience to make something like this work.It is entirely up to you but it would be nice for someone else to benefit from the countless hours I spent scratching my head.

Kind Regards

Nigel
 
NMBROOK said:
Kurt firstly the bamboo,it has hard and soft spots to it.It only wants to bend where it is soft not where you want it to bend.Also it is a knightmare to sand.You can't get a fair hull because the soft bits sand far quicker than the hard spots.Replace with lime,it is far easier to work with and not worth the stress over cost saving.
To be honest neither Amati or Deagostini's hull are correct.Remembering back I had issues in that the lower and middle gun deck are too close together to accommodate the two wales.I lowered the lower gun deck slightly and at the same time added to the sheer,the gunports do not have enough arc to them.I then worked upward from there.
My only concern with Amati's decorations is to how they would work with a corrected Deagostini hull.The angle of the stern and the slope of the side galleries are too severe on Amati's design,this may cause issues with castings lining up.My Amati plans are packed in one of the many boxes for our house move so I cannot see if there may be an issue.One thing I would say is that the quality of the Amati castings are far superior to the Mantua group.I bought the Amati figurehead for this model as a guide to carve my own and it is fantastic for what it is.
Unfortunately many pictures of this build have been lost to forum and laptop meltdowns.I had more spare time when I started Sovereign and spent 40 hours a week on the build for one year solid as well as holding down a full time job.
If you really want to follow in my footsteps then I can't provide you with pictures from what I did when,all the build photos left are here,but I could take measurements from my model to help you out.Ultimately you would need to build the Deagostini skeleton up and I could give you heights from the keel to the rows of gunports,heights of bulwarks etc.From this you could adapt the build as you went along.Also I could tell you the rake and position of my stern etc in relation to the keel.I even altered the angle of the tiller!
We would end up recreating my build log with your model in effect,however yours wouldn't need reworking after you had assembled something!The discussion on the Czech forum follows the lines of the thought process I went through on this build.
You La Couronne is a great build,you do have the experience to make something like this work.It is entirely up to you but it would be nice for someone else to benefit from the countless hours I spent scratching my head.

Kind Regards

Nigel
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Well, Nigel, I pulled the trigger and bought the Amati decorations. Many of them had more detail. I think I can make them work with a few tweaks and adaptations. A little clever filing and filling goes a long way. I am taking notes and saving all your comments, because they will be invaluable guidance when I start building SotS. Straight on profile photos of your model would be a helpful in modifying the hull, especially when placing the internal decks with the correct gun port sheer. I modified La Couronne to have a lower gun deck to allow use of full cannon carriages, which are far nicer looking that false barrels stuck into a black painted piece of wood. It's fun adding enough extra details to suggest a fully detailed interior, but not having to build all the internals like the exquisite SotS made by Doris Obručová (My God, she's incredible!). After looking at some of the historical sources, I would like to attempt to mix the features of the Payne engraving and the stern from Lely Portrait of Peter Pett. I noted that the gun port sheer in Payne is rather low... the main and upper gun decks are rather flat in profile. The Amati plans even show more sheer in the ports than Payne. It will be interesting to see what the Deagostini gun port layout looks like. I'll have to open the last few packages and pull out some of the magazines to get a glimpse into the future...

La Couronne is my first ship, but as you have seen, I have very skilled hands after years of crafting custom fitted suits of armor, medieval weapons, and crossbows, a full size ballista, and many other projects. So, the decision not to scratch build is more to save time, eliminate large mistakes and rework, and make the build more enjoyable.

I'm the Roman soldier on the right, below. My friends and I had to craft suits of Roman armor and all the equipment in my shop to complete the ballista crew. Making a model ship is just as difficult, only much,much tinier. I sold the ballista a few years ago, but still have several suits of armor.

Cornelius&Julian.jpgBallistaPortraitRear.jpgBallistaPortraitSide.jpgBallista&House.jpg
 
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You are correct Kurt,the Payne engraving does depict a 'flatter' vessel.My inspiration followed the works of Van de Velde the Elder,hence the larger amount of sheer towards the stern.You will surprised if not shocked at the run of the top of the bulwarks on the complete partwork,odd to say the least.

I don't think you will be disappointed at the quality of the Amati castings and mixing them with some of the part work ones will work.The only thing missing from both is the vertical 'strip' decoration either side of the gunports.This is a simpler design if you follow Payne rather than the more ornate version of VdeV which I have started on my model.

I will take all the pics you need once I have moved house,this should be happening towards the end of next month.That in itself has been held up due to various delays,we should have got the keys on Friday!

Kind Regards

Nigel
 
NMBROOK said:
You are correct Kurt,the Payne engraving does depict a 'flatter' vessel.My inspiration followed the works of Van de Velde the Elder,hence the larger amount of sheer towards the stern.You will surprised if not shocked at the run of the top of the bulwarks on the complete partwork,odd to say the least.

I don't think you will be disappointed at the quality of the Amati castings and mixing them with some of the part work ones will work.The only thing missing from both is the vertical 'strip' decoration either side of the gunports.This is a simpler design if you follow Payne rather than the more ornate version of VdeV which I have started on my model.

I will take all the pics you need once I have moved house,this should be happening towards the end of next month.That in itself has been held up due to various delays,we should have got the keys on Friday!

Kind Regards

Nigel
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Like you said, I think Payne got the details right but distorted and flattened the overall hull shape. With his deck heights, the only things that could go below without whacking their heads are hobbits. The pillar-like decorations on either side of each gun port can be make from scratch with wood and painted gold. This should be easily done if one carves a long piece of wood like a piece of molding, and chops slices off that piece like you would a sausage. Each slice has a profile equal to all the other slices. The profile shape is simple geometry, it's not like carving human figures and animals which would certainly end in failure with my skills. I have to take a closer look at the Amati decorations and determine if they are shaped in the style of William van de Velde or Payne. They seem to be closer to Paune but contain both styles, with some simplifications and exceptions. They are certainly better than the Deagostini supplied decorations. Maybe I can turn those into earrings for my wife. :D

Like Corel's La Couronne, the hull sheer of Deagostini's SotS is subtle and not deep like a banana. I am wondering if the extreme sheer shown in paintings of olde is more of an artistic style element rather than reality, since it would affect stability when taken to that extreme.

Looking forward to the pictures of your masterpiece!
 
Unfortuneately not an update.We have moved into our new home and I think it will be a couple of months before I have anything resembling a work area for my models.
However,I have stumbled on this log on a German? forum featuring Deagostini's Sovereign.This has been 'bashed' beyond recognition and features extensive homemade carving.
Here is the link,the log currently stands at 106 pages!!!
Regards

Nigel
 
You should be able to translate Bill if you use Google chrome as your browser.Chrome isn't my preferred browser due to all the popups etc but I use it to view foreign language sites when I need to read the text.

Regards

Nigel
 
NMBROOK said:
Unfortuneately not an update.We have moved into our new home and I think it will be a couple of months before I have anything resembling a work area for my models.
However,I have stumbled on this log on a German? forum featuring Deagostini's Sovereign.This has been 'bashed' beyond recognition and features extensive homemade carving.
Here is the link,the log currently stands at 106 pages!!!
Regards

Nigel
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The "Wettringer" (this forum is named in germany in this way) is a relatively old forum - a lot of german modelers are members there.
In the building log the modeler refers several time to Hendrik Busmann´s thesis (which was also already mentioned in this thread)

If somebody is interested, you can find a Book Review and Look Inside here:

Book review - Book Review: "SOVEREIGN OF THE SEAS - Die Skulpturen des britischen Königsschiffes von 1637" by Hendrik Busmann

Book Review: SOVEREIGN OF THE SEAS - Die Skulpturen des britischen Königsschiffes von 1637 by Hendrik Busmann Gebundene Ausgabe: 311 Seiten Verlag: CONVENT Hamburg (2002) Sprache: Deutsch ISBN-10: 3934613195 ISBN-13: 978-3934613195 Verpackungsabmessungen: 27,4 x 21,5 x 3 cm / 1.580...
shipsofscale.com
 
Nigel,
Just went over you SOS log - Had no ideas about all of the DeAgostini "bait and switch" regarding their kit. Learned so much spending an hour here. Now not sure what to do haha
PS: Your example has always been on my list of superb examples of this ship - however with little empirical information available. Might just settle for the Sergal - if I decided to actually acquire one of these kits. hmmmm?? Was visiting Janos - well he lives in another world to mine - stunning - Will you come back to this one??

Cheers my friend
 
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Hi Michael
Yes she will be revisited at some point.Currently she looks at me from a shelf in the workshop,completely undamaged from two house moves and a light covering of dust.I used to spend about 50 hours a week on her and work a full time job.I just haven't the time available like that at the moment.Some of the small carvings took me about 8 hours each.I am nowhere near as quick as Janos.
If I were to build the Sergal kit,I would probably build her to replicate Sepping's model.No need to bin all the castings then;)

Kind Regards

Nigel
 
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