Discussion The Cost of Kit vs Scratch Build: A Real Divide or Just Perspective?

[Jimsky]

not at all it shows what can be accomplished if you are offended and think your being looked down on that is your personal problem.

if your statement were true i would be posting scratch built models with the statement HA HA look what i can do and you can't. BUT NO i started a school to teach and help to elevate builders to improve and learn.

That’s good to hear — helping others learn is a great thing. But offering help and elevating others isn’t the same as implying that their chosen path is inferior. The issue isn’t whether someone’s offended; it’s about tone and messaging. When you say things like kits are “frozen TV dinners” and scratch builds are “gourmet meals,” it does come across as looking down on others, whether intended or not.

Respecting different approaches doesn’t mean lowering standards; it means recognizing that there’s more than one way to grow and enjoy the hobby.

 

[Daniel20]

"I said what I meant, and I meant what I said."

"If one does not wish to learn the proper terms, a language unto itself, to be sure, then maybe they really should consider another hobby."

Fair enough Bob, I now see an arrogance in your suggestion that another hobby be considered, and I mean that too!

 

[Jimsky]

My point was, simply, if you don't want to put out the effort to learn the language, what's the point of pursuing any interest in the literature? It's like saying, "I want to play the piano, but I have no interest in learning to read music. People who know the names of the notes are "elitists."

Bob, many accomplished musicians play entirely by ear and never learn to read sheet music. Jimi Hendrix, Paul McCartney, and Eric Clapton, just to name a few.

That comparison makes sense if someone’s goal is to become a scholar of naval architecture or a professional model maker (does such exist?). But many of us build ships for enjoyment, relaxation, or personal fulfillment, not to publish papers or pass exams. Wanting to engage with a hobby without first mastering a specialized vocabulary doesn’t make someone lazy or dismissive — it makes them a beginner, like we all were once.

You wouldn’t tell someone they can’t enjoy playing simple songs on a piano just because they don’t yet read sheet music fluently. You’d encourage them — and maybe teach them the notes along the way. That’s how people learn, grow, and stick with something.

 

[paul ron]

wow this has morphed into a lot of nonsense.

you dont need special skills or fancy expensive tools to start this hobby. its all a fun learning experiance. there is no right or wrong in ship building, or any hobby.

if you have the money, get a kit and follow the instructions. if you have any problems, ask anyone in here and we will all help, even the snobs.

if you feel you want a chalange, buy plans and go slow. kits have a high out of pocket, while scratch spreads out the cost as you go. i think scratch is a great learning experiance.

so chil lax n enjoy whatever you do... keep in toutch?

sheesh, complicate a simple question!

 

[Daniel20]

Awe, this is just an old fashion school yard dust up amongst a bunch of good ole boys (some of us very old) who enjoy a good argument. No harm or ill will intended at least from my point of view.

 

[dockattner]

If one does not wish to learn the proper terms, a language unto itself, to be sure, then maybe they really should consider another hobby.

I’m sorry guys but I don’t understand this elitism business.

nor do i

C'mon guys. The very suggestion that if I don't agree with your values or approach I should choose another hobby is the poster-child statement for elitism. This is the third time this sentiment has been shared on this forum and each time I have challenged it. Please don't be blind to how this comes across.

You're quite possibly correct. Have you ever noticed that those who accuse others for being "elite" are always those who aren't?

I rest my case.

Elitism isn't skill, Mr. Cleek (@Bob Cleek). Elitism is an attitude. To that end I am decidedly not elite because I refuse to sit in the judge's seat, nor would I dare to tell someone that their approach to a hobby is misdirected or insufficient.

 

[zoly99sask]

C'mon guys. The very suggestion that if I don't agree with your values or approach I should choose another hobby is the poster-child statement for elitism. This is the third time this sentiment has been shared on this forum and each time I have challenged it. Please don't be blind to how this comes across.


I rest my case.

Elitism isn't skill, Mr. Cleek. Elitism is an attitude. To that end I am decidedly not elite because I refuse to sit in the judge's seat, nor would I dare to tell someone that their approach to a hobby is misdirected or insufficient.

Well said !!!

 

[Bob Cleek]

"If one does not wish to learn the proper terms, a language unto itself, to be sure, then maybe they really should consider another hobby."

Fair enough Bob, I now see an arrogance in your suggestion that another hobby be considered, and I mean that too!

Ship modeling isn't the Special Olympics where "everybody gets a prize" just for participating. Ship modeling is essentially an exercise in the pursuit of excellence. It categorically presents a hierarchy of accomplishment existing on two planes: 1) the individual and 2) the general. Every model is a statement of its builder's abilities and accomplishments and will always be judged against 1) the builder's own personal standards and 2) the general standards of the larger ship modeling community. Anybody can judge the quality of their own model on the basis of their own subjective standards. Everybody judges the quality of somebody else's model by far broader objective standards.

I stated a simple opinion: "If one does not wish to learn the proper terms, then maybe they really should consider another hobby." It applies to any hobby or endeavor of any kind, for that matter. If you don't want to learn "weights and measures," maybe you should really consider a hobby other than cooking. If you don't want to learn the rules of the road, maybe you should consider a hobby other than auto racing. If you don't want to learn to read music, maybe you should consider a hobby other than piano playing. If you don't want to learn to identify different species of wood, maybe you should consider a hobby other than woodworking. If you don't want to learn to identify the various bird breeds, maybe you should really consider a hobby other than birdwatching. And, if you don't want to learn what the various parts of ships are called or read and understand their plans, then maybe you should really consider a hobby other than ship modeling.

How is the statement, "If one does not wish to learn the proper terms, a language unto itself, to be sure, then maybe they really should consider another hobby." at all "arrogant?" It's not born of arrogance, but rather of experience. If somebody isn't prepared to learn proper nautical terminology or read lines drawings, they will most likely encounter difficulty and frustration trying to get very far as a ship modeler. Do you dispute the proposition that the more one knows about ships and ship building, the better ship modeler they are able to be?

 

[Daniel20]

How is the statement, "If one does not wish to learn the proper terms, a language unto itself, to be sure, then maybe they really should consider another hobby." at all "arrogant?"

Bob, the arrogant part of this occurs when you suggest what in this case is (the substandard motivation i.e. does not wish to learn) should consider another Hobby.
Granted my use of the word substandard stems from your use of the word "proper". I cannot explain it any better, but I do have an appreciation of your knowledge and prose. I do think you mean well but in an arrogant way.

 

[Jimsky]

Ship modeling isn't the Special Olympics where "everybody gets a prize" just for participating. Ship modeling is essentially an exercise in the pursuit of excellence. It categorically presents a hierarchy of accomplishment existing on two planes: 1) the individual and 2) the general. Every model is a statement of its builder's abilities and accomplishments and will always be judged against 1) the builder's own personal standards and 2) the general standards of the larger ship modeling community. Anybody can judge the quality of their own model on the basis of their own subjective standards. Everybody judges the quality of somebody else's model by far broader objective standards.

I stated a simple opinion: "If one does not wish to learn the proper terms, they maybe they really should consider another hobby." It applies to any hobby or endeavor of any kind, for that matter. If you don't want to learn "weights and measures," maybe you should really consider a hobby other than cooking. If you don't want to learn the rules of the road, maybe you should consider a hobby other than auto racing. If you don't want to learn to read music, maybe you should consider a hobby other than piano playing. If you don't want to learn to identify different species of wood, maybe you should consider a hobby other than woodworking. If you don't want to learn to identify the various bird breeds, maybe you should really consider a hobby other than birdwatching. And, if you don't want to learn what the various parts of ships are called or read and understand their plans, then maybe you should really consider a hobby other than ship modeling.

How is the statement, "If one does not wish to learn the proper terms, a language unto itself, to be sure, then maybe they really should consider another hobby." at all "arrogant?" It's not born of arrogance, but rather of experience. If somebody isn't prepared to learn proper nautical terminology or read lines drawings, they will most likely encounter difficulty and frustration trying to get very far as a ship modeler. Do you dispute the proposition that the more one knows about ships and ship building, the better ship modeler they are able to be?

Not sure about Daniel, but actually, I do dispute the idea that a willingness to learn all the proper terms upfront is the litmus test for being a “real” ship modeler.
Oh, it’s absolutely arrogant — because instead of encouraging people to grow into the hobby, you're suggesting they should pack up and leave if they don’t speak “your words of wisdom” right out of the gate. That’s not “experience,” that’s gatekeeping dressed up as wisdom.
Plenty of modelers build beautiful, accurate ships without having a naval dictionary familiarized. They learn as they go, like everyone does, including you. Acting like ship modeling should be reserved for the academically fluent is laughable. For the majority of us, this is ONLY a hobby, not a naval engineering exam, nor a discipline in college.

So yeah - suggesting someone “consider another hobby” because they’re new or unfamiliar with terminology? That’s arrogant as hell. And unhelpful to boot. I truly regret that you still don’t understand, though perhaps you simply don’t want to.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Elitism isn't skill, Mr. Cleek. Elitism is an attitude. To that end I am decidedly not elite because I refuse to sit in the judge's seat, nor would I dare to tell someone that their approach to a hobby is misdirected or insufficient.

Well, bless your heart! Whether you choose to "sit in the judge's seat" or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you are "elite." Your statement makes no sense at all. For whatever reason, you are certainly entitled not to "dare to tell someone that their approach to a hobby is misdirected or insufficient." For my part, I have little or no hesitation in telling someone when they're heading into shoal waters. Anybody who substitutes kits for learning the basics of reading plans, lofting, and adequately learning nomenclature will never progress beyond that point in their ship modeling journey.

 

[Jimsky]

Well, bless your heart! Whether you choose to "sit in the judge's seat" or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you are "elite." Your statement makes no sense at all. For whatever reason, you are certainly entitled not to "dare to tell someone that their approach to a hobby is misdirected or insufficient." For my part, I have little or no hesitation in telling someone when they're heading into shoal waters. Anybody who substitutes kits for learning the basics of reading plans, lofting, and adequately learning nomenclature will never progress beyond that point in their ship modeling journey.

Enough is enough!!! Stop discouraging others!
Let’s be honest here, warning someone they’re “heading into shoal waters” just because they choose to build a kit instead of diving straight into plan reading and lofting is exactly the kind of gatekeeping that discourages newcomers. Not everyone wants to pursue ship modeling as a full academic discipline, and that’s perfectly fine.

You're free to hold your view - just stop preaching it like it's gospel. Others are equally entitled to enjoy the hobby their way, whether that means scratch-building from hand-drafted plans or assembling a kit on their kitchen table. This isn’t a naval academy. It’s a community of people who love ships, craftsmanship, and creativity. Let’s respect the diversity of that passion, and stop trying to make others feel like they’re doing it “wrong” just because they didn’t take the same route you did.

 

[manning16]

Ouch!! This hobby is supposed to be fun..lots of bandwidth used to discuss the perception of "elitism" in the end, does it matter? I built my first ship. the Swift, in 1970's..no one to guide me, no internet..I didn't know what a scupper was, when it said to cut the scuppers.. fifty years later, I still have no one to share my hobby with in NY..FL yes. Now I am a scratchbuilder,, better than a kit builder, no it's simply evolution.. I gradually collected books to help me with vocabulary, techniques, etc.. Not imperative if you desire to build a kit, but it helps..I enjoy the research as well... at the end of the day, we're supposed to be united by a common bond.. enough already

 

[Fish&Chip]

May br IT could be Wise to close this thread to keep peacefull this forum.

 

[manning16]

Yup ,all good fun until it becomes personal

 

[MThomas]

I started to move away from kits, for numerous reasons, about four years ago. I took it upon myself to start learning lofting, construction techniques, nomenclature, etc. My horizons in this great hobby have expanded, immensely, ever since. I'll never buy a kit again; I can now do much better myself! If that statement of 'fact' makes me an 'elitist'... then "so be it!" I'll not only wear the hat proudly but also try to encourage others to learn new things and pursue something more than simple 'mediocracy' while doing so. There's nothing wrong with striving for perfection. There's also nothing wrong with 'not' wanting to be a perfectionist. There 'is' something wrong with negative labels being cast about and folks being 'type-cast' because someone else doesn't have the same interests or desires. You people need to 'knock it the hell off'! This isn't something even worthy of debate! This is something concerning a 'hobby' and the individual rights of people to simply enjoy what they wish to enjoy without fear of being chastised, labeled, made fun of, etc.! "Secure from General Quarters already!" Break out the 'rum-rations' and go have some fun!

 

[NMBROOK]

Well, bless your heart! Whether you choose to "sit in the judge's seat" or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you are "elite." Your statement makes no sense at all. For whatever reason, you are certainly entitled not to "dare to tell someone that their approach to a hobby is misdirected or insufficient." For my part, I have little or no hesitation in telling someone when they're heading into shoal waters. Anybody who substitutes kits for learning the basics of reading plans, lofting, and adequately learning nomenclature will never progress beyond that point in their ship modeling journey.

I have so far spent 35 years working in heavy structural steel fabrication. My actual trade derives from the shipyard. I have friends/colleagues who have built cross channel ferries, offshore supply vessels, the Queen `Elizabeth class aircraft carriers and intercontinental ballistic nuclear submarines. I was involved in the hull strengthening work during the restoration of Cutty Sark. We all followed drawings done by others.....

I find your belief that ship model builders must know how to loft frames ridiculous, the people that build real ships rarely know how to loft a hull from scratch.

I know how to do it, but that was only out of choice and curiosity, not necessity.

 

[Roger Pellett]

I can belong to the forum, read the threads that interest me and sometimes press the like button. That would make me a semi-lurker. I go my way scratch building models and the kit builders go theirs. Things are nice and peaceful.

But then someone asks a question. I am fortunate to own a large library so, I spend time researching the question and writing an answer using correct grammar, spelling, and yes proper terminology. Several things might happen:
A. Nothing. My effort is ignored
B. The questioner says, “oh it doesn’t matter, I just do this for fun.”
C. “The instructions say: ABCXYZ, etc.”

Or like Bob Cleek did, I refer the questioner to an authoritative source. Three things happen:
A. Nothing, as above.
B. “I can’t understand the book.”
C. “The book is too expensive”

These responses come across as arrogant because they are dismissive of time, experience, and intellectual effort that has been put into answering the question. So, why would any knowledgeable forum member bother to answer these questions? Because there are some members that do appreciate and respond to well researched answers.

If someone answers a questIon using correct nautical and technical terminology they are not being elitist, they are just communicating in a clear correct manner.

Roger

 

[Bob Cleek]

Enough is enough!!! Stop discouraging others!

For the umpteenth time, Jim, nobody is intentionally discouraging anyone from anything. If you feel discouraged by the viewpoints others have expressed, that's your issue, not theirs. To the contrary, those of us who urge others to expand their knowledge are encouraging them to enjoy a greater appreciation of the model ship building endeavor in all its aspects. Dave's question was whether it would be of benefit to some for him to address the basic principles of plans reading and lofting (which necessarily requires an understanding of basic nomenclature) in his generous "ship modeling school" posts, to which a number of us heartily agreed. It is not the "scratch builders versus the kit builders" at all. If anything, it is some of the kit builders who are projecting their own issues with imagined "elitism." It's not a question of "better" or "worse," it's a matter of encouraging people to widen their horizons. If they choose not to do so, that's entirely their prerogative. While a case can easily be made for why anyone who wishes to be a musician would do well to learn to read music, there are still those accomplished musicians who manage to make beautiful music playing "by ear" and they don't seem to have a need to call those who read music "elitists." I fail to see why ship modeling needs to be any different.

 

[Bob Cleek]

Wanting to engage with a hobby without first mastering a specialized vocabulary doesn’t make someone lazy or dismissive — it makes them a beginner, like we all were once.

I don't necessarily disagree with that premise and certainly it represents the core of the sales pitch most of the kit manufacturers make, whether it be express or implied. The low number of completed kits to overall kits sold is proof of that! Query whether that really encourages people to attempt to build a ship model or, in actuality, discourages many more who bite off more than they can chew at the marketers' invitations only in frustration to abandon their interest entirely.

You really are projecting your own issues and "grinding your own axe" here, though. Please note that what you have described above is not what I said. I said nothing of the kind. What I said, in context, was this:

Drafting, be it manual or CAD, ... is just another of the skills one needs to acquire to build ship models from scratch. At the risk of bruising egos, I must say that, as far as I'm concerned, those who are serious about the hobby acquire such skills for exactly that reason. There are others who will say that they have no interest in drafting or lofting and they prefer to buy their plans for modeling readymade. There is certainly a market for them and no reason not to buy them if one so desires, but, as with so much else, including, but not limited to, modernly, things like 3d printing, the more one buys and the less they do on their own, the less of their models they build themselves.

Roger Pellet is so right that "Drafting is a language." There's really nothing for it but to learn the language before you "pass go." Drafting seems to be a common stumbling block for a lot of ship modelers, as does nautical nomenclature. Frankly, I can't see how anybody could even begin to aspire to building ship models without having at least a basic mechanical drawing class under their belt, a set of instruments, and a reference manual or two. The same is true of nautical nomenclature. If one does not wish to learn the proper terms, a language unto itself, to be sure, then maybe they really should consider another hobby. I realize kits excuse many from acquiring the essential basic skills of model ship building, but those who avail themselves of such "frozen TV dinner" shortcuts deprive themselves and their models of what could have been a real home-cooked gourmet meal.

I was speaking of those who are "lazy and dismissive" (your description) and take the position that they do not wish to learn the proper terms (ever.) I was not speaking of those who simply haven't learned them as yet and all this in the context of Dave's question whether it might be helpful to address plans reading, lofting, and, necessarily nomenclature, in his "ship modeling school" posts for the benefit of the latter group, not the former. It was and is my considered opinion that anyone who approaches ship modeling in the manner you have described as "lazy and dismissive" will be disappointed because their progress, such as it may be, will ultimately be thwarted by their lack of knowledge. I fully realize there are some who are satisfied with that and, given that fact, whether including these subjects in Dave's "school" posts would be helpful to those who wanted to learn what Dave has to share is none of their concern because by their own choice they have no "dog in the fight." It would seem as well, neither do you, for you are not a beginning modeler.