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Discussion The Cost of Kit vs Scratch Build: A Real Divide or Just Perspective?

Hi Bob
The main problem for me is to get different sorts of suitable woods necessary for the models.In my region it is very diffulct to get,not dried limited sortiment etc Importing blocks of different wood types is also expensive .I actualy buy the kits because of their wood contents and plans in the kits.The plans in the kits mostly are not complete and not detailed so I have to search for more suplementary logical info.
If you do not collect info and history knowing nothing about the model you build the alternative is simply cut ,glue and paint the parts and finish like a LEGO and basta.
For my last 2 models La Couronne and La Toulonnaise i got very useful info from SOS community, so continue building.
Cheers

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Bob, I CAN identify the error on the Model Shipways longboat model but to do so would be cheating as along with you I was involved with arguing with the kit’s designer. He repeated the error with his own produced Medway Longboat kit.

Hint. The error makes a common small boat operation not only dangerous but impossible to perform correctly.
 
No, those are running backstays. When the boat tacks one crewman is tasked with slacking off the leeward backstays while another tensions the windward one. I have sailed on several boats with this arrangement.

Look Closer!

Roger
 
Bob, I CAN identify the error on the Model Shipways longboat model but to do so would be cheating as along with you I was involved with arguing with the kit’s designer. He repeated the error with his own produced Medway Longboat kit.

Hint. The error makes a common small boat operation not only dangerous but impossible to perform correctly.

I haven't sailed much, but I'm going to take a stab at this one. Does it have anything to do with the fact that the tiller passes above the sheet traveler rail, rather than below it? This would effectively foul the tiller every time you jibed. (I hope I got my terminology right.)
 
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No, those are running backstays. When the boat tacks one crewman is tasked with slacking off the leeward backstays while another tensions the windward one. I have sailed on several boats with this arrangement.

Look Closer!

Roger
The tackle of the sail can’t be easily changed by jibing it is crossing the ruder it should lie aboe the ruder.further the angle of the backstays limits to much the sail freedom therfore they should be closerto the mast

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I haven't sailed much, but I'm going to take a stab at this one. Does it have anything to do with the fact that the tiller is passes above the sheet traveler rail, rather than below it? This would effectively foul the tiller every time you jibed. (I hope I got my terminology right.)

BINGO! Exactly correct. When tacking to sail to windward, the helmsman pushes the tiller to leeward, turning the boat to tack through the eye of the wind. as the boom moves across the centerline when passing through the eye of the wind, it pulls the lower mainsheet block across the sheet horse. In the model's arangement, the lower mainsheet block (and mainsheet purchase) would fetch up against the tiller, moving the tiller with substantial force in the direction opposite to the helmsman's intention, rendering the helm impossible to control without overcoming the mainsail's power pulling it in the opposite direction. The whole point of a mainsheet horse is to raise the lower mainsheet block above the tiller so it won't foul on the tiller as the block moves to the opposite quarter.
 
No, those are running backstays. When the boat tacks one crewman is tasked with slacking off the leeward backstays while another tensions the windward one. I have sailed on several boats with this arrangement.

Look Closer!

Roger

Yes, that is correct. On the model, the lower blocks of the running backstay tackles are only hooked to the eyes of the chainplates. When the boat would be sailing, the leeward backstay would be unhooked from its chainplate and run forward to to a convenient point at the aft shaft shroud and hooked loosely there to keep it out of the way. The arrangement is reversed when the wind was on the other side.
 
The tackle of the sail can’t be easily changed by jibing it is crossing the ruder it should lie aboe the ruder.further the angle of the backstays limits to much the sail freedom therfore they should be closerto the mast

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The backstays are correct. They are just both set up in the pictured arrangement because the mainsail isn't bent to the mast and the boat isn't set up for sailing. Connecting both backstays at the same time is a matter of convenience in that circumstance. When sailing, only the windward backstay would be set up conncected to its chainplate. The other would be cast off so the mainsail and boom were free to run forward as far as the aft leeward shroud.

You're correct as to the tiller's being over the sheet horse instead of below the sheet horse.
 
Bob, I CAN identify the error on the Model Shipways longboat model but to do so would be cheating as along with you I was involved with arguing with the kit’s designer. He repeated the error with his own produced Medway Longboat kit.

Indeed, he did! Both the Model Shipways launch and the Syren Medway Longboat models and the RMG models upon which they are based contain this same error. And he maintains that these models are "accurate models of models" in the RMG! What's the point of that? Who needs exact copies of a serious mistake that has been made not once, but twice already? Thanks to his lack of academic sophistication, there's now many, many extant repetitions of those mistakes in circulation. This is the danger of playing the "telephone game" with the historical record. As errors which have crept into the secondary sources are repeated over and over again, they become "part of the record" and potentially cause nightmares for the historians of the future. Many modelers will say, "So what? It's a beautiful kit model and I enjoyed building it." The problem is that, from an historian's viewpoint, they are polluting the historical record for future generations.

This problem is not limited to the two launch models in the RMG's collection, either. There are very few contemporary museum models of any significant antiquity that have not been modified repeatedly over the course of their existences. This is particularly the case with rigging details. Consequently, caution must be exercised when relying on contemporary models as historical authority for present day ship models.

One detail on some contemporary models, usually French, that always leaves me scratching my head is the placement of anchor trip line coils and their buoys stowed hanging high in the foremast shrouds. This seems to have now become a somewhat mandatory detail of the the "cannons and gingerbread" kit genre. Some versions even have more than one depicted. Often, the trip lines are ridiculously short, or lightweight, given the anchors on the model. Sometimes the buoys are hung half way up ther lower shrouds. The size of some of these buoys would require two or more stout fellows just to horse them around on deck, yet somebody thinks these ships sailed around with such equipment routinely stowed in the rigging! Who would ever think climbing half way up the ratlines to stow a thing like that makes any sense whatsoever? Who hangs ground tackle in the rigging? This stuff belongs stowed on deck or below. It's only used when anchoring anyway. Mind you, I haven't done any specific research on the issue, but I strongly suspect some long gone museum curator came across an anchor buoy that came adrift from a model and thought, "Where the hell does this thing belong? Well, this looks like as good a place as any." and so tied it up on the shroud and from then on thus ever was it so.

If anybody has a better explanation, I'd love to hear it.

This "double header" is my favorite. The trip lines is just stuffed behind the lower deadeyes. Hardly shipshape on a naval vessel.
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If this length of line were sufficient, the ship would be aground at low tide, and, God forbid, if she took the ground on top of her anchor, it'd punch a hole in her bottom for sure.
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Does anybody really think that a trip line of this size is going to be sufficient to break free either of the anchors next to it?
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Hi Bob
The main problem for me is to get different sorts of suitable woods necessary for the models.In my region it is very diffulct to get,not dried limited sortiment etc Importing blocks of different wood types is also expensive .I actualy buy the kits because of their wood contents and plans in the kits.The plans in the kits mostly are not complete and not detailed so I have to search for more suplementary logical info.

The good thing about sourcing wood for model ship building is that we really don't need a whole lot of it. The bad news is that the wood included in many kits isn't necessarily a species that's much good for modeling.

I know nothing about sourcing wood species in Istanbul, but google is my friend: https://www.treeplantation.com/turkish-trees.html. Many modelers labor under the misunderstanding that the only wood species that are acceeptable for our use are those used three hundred years ago in England and France, or those the kit manufacturers say must be used. That's a ridiculous proposition. Wood grows nearly everywhere and nearly everywhere there will be wood species available that are excellent for ship modeling purposes. Many will never be seen mentioned in ship modeling books, but so what?

The article linked above lists a long list of indigenous species commonly growing in Turkey, some of which I know by experience to be excellent modeling wood sources. Among these are Sweet gum, aka: liquidambar. Its heartwood is also known as "Satin Walnut" to fine furniture makers. Its easily worked, moderately hard, and its abundant sapwood is near-white in color with minimal figuring so it can be stained any color desired. Its heartwood can be darker with figuring accents. Olive wood is very hard and, while varied as to figuring, select pieces serve as a respectable substitute for boxwood. Turkey, it is reported, also has a considerable number of pine species. Most clear pine lumber is excellent for modeling purposes. And those are just your native species. Any urban area, particularly those with Mediterranean climates will contain exotic ornamental species, such as holly and boxwood, in limited amounts. Local tree service companies will sometimes save some of the "good stuff" from their chippers for you if you can make a friend in the business. (What tree services routinely chip up would bring tears to a wood worker's eyes.) Finally, pear, apple, citrus and other fruitwood excellent for modeling is often available for the asking from the orchard farmers, especially at pruning time. Most have slash piles of limbs and branches that they burn every so often.

Obtaining raw timber does mean that you would have to find a way to mill it, but you don't have to do that yourself. Small logs can be turned into conveniently sized billets and sheets by any cabinet shop or hobbyist woodworker with a bandsaw and a thickness planer. This may incur some cost, but, without a doubt, it will be far less than trying to buy "modeling wood" anywhere at retail prices. If you do invest in a small modeler's table saw, it will pay for itself in short order and you will be able to mill all the strip wood you want for free.

One important fact to realize is that excellent modeling wood is not always particularly scarce in the world. There's often just not enough market demand, or in some cases, enough easy access for harvesting, to make it economically attractive to the timber industry to bother harvesting it. They are going to cut what provides the greatest profit, not necessarily what is the greatest wood. We "model lumberjacks" can often scrounge wonderful modeling wood at no cost because we only need small amounts of what the professional loggers consider "trash wood."

There are other sources of modeling wood besides raw timber. Many scratch builders recycle valuable wood for modeling from discarded furniture and paneling. Here again, a lot of this stock can be had for the asking at no cost at all.

Research and experiment with readily available wood species in your own area. Mill your own modeling wood. Free yourself from the tyrrany of the lumber marketplace! Free yourself from the constraints of dimensioned lumber!

Finally, as radical as it may sound, you don't have to limit your modeling to wood, either. Painted models are entirely respectable and, in fact, preferred by many. Models can be made from paper and card stock, too, although I am truly intimidated by the incredible results the master card modelers produce... way above my pay grade. The same goes for metal modelers who perform wonders with brass and silver solder. It's not always necessary to plank a model with boxwood and ebony. :D
 
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Bob,
As I recall the Longboat Traveler Debate on MSW, there was also the aspect that since a Model Ship World Rock Star had designed the kit, it must, therefore, be flawless. The argument that Newtonian Physics is the same today as it was in the 1700’s did not deter those who had bought the kit.

Roger
 
Bob,
As I recall the Longboat Traveler Debate on MSW, there was also the aspect that since a Model Ship World Rock Star had designed the kit, it must, therefore, be flawless. The argument that Newtonian Physics is the same today as it was in the 1700’s did not deter those who had bought the kit.

Roger

The fact that somebody builds, or even designs, a model kit is no guarantee that they know as much about ships and boats as they might like you to believe. I consider the referenced kit designer quite knowledgeable. All of us can, and do, make mistakes. Nobody knows it all. Sadly, his refusal to acknowledge his mistakes in this instance betrayed not just a lack of knowledge, but also a lack of character.

He's not alone, either. There's a similar glaring error in Ed Tosti's Young America which resulted from his slavish replication of an erroneous topping lift rigging diagram in Crothers' The American Built Clipper Ship which Tosti obstinately maintained was the infallible authority in the matter, contrary to basic physics.

I can excuse emperors having no clothes, but I object to their expecting me to clap for their fashion show. ;)
 
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The good thing about sourcing wood for model ship building is that we really don't need a whole lot of it. The bad news is that the wood included in many kits isn't necessarily a species that's much good for modeling.

I know nothing about sourcing wood species in Istanbul, but google is my friend: https://www.treeplantation.com/turkish-trees.html. Many modelers labor under the misunderstanding that the only wood species that are acceeptable for our use are those used three hundred years ago in England and France, or those the kit manufacturers say must be used. That's a ridiculous proposition. Wood grows nearly everywhere and nearly everywhere there will be wood species available that are excellent for ship modeling purposes. Many will never be seen mentioned in ship modeling books, but so what?

The article linked above lists a long list of indigenous species commonly growing in Turkey, some of which I know by experience to be excellent modeling wood sources. Among these are Sweet gum, aka: liquidambar. Its heartwood is also known as "Satin Walnut" to fine furniture makers. Its easily worked, moderately hard, and its abundant sapwood is near-white in color with minimal figuring so it can be stained any color desired. Its heartwood can be darker with figuring accents. Olive wood is very hard and, while varied as to figuring, select pieces serve as a respectable substitute for boxwood. Turkey, it is reported, also has a considerable number of pine species. Most clear pine lumber is excellent for modeling purposes. And those are just your native species. Any urban area, particularly those with Mediterranean climates will contain exotic ornamental species, such as holly and boxwood, in limited amounts. Local tree service companies will sometimes save some of the "good stuff" from their chippers for you if you can make a friend in the business. (What tree services routinely chip up would bring tears to a wood worker's eyes.) Finally, pear, apple, citrus and other fruitwood excellent for modeling is often available for the asking from the orchard farmers, especially at pruning time. Most have slash piles of limbs and branches that they burn every so often.

Obtaining raw timber does mean that you would have to find a way to mill it, but you don't have to do that yourself. Small logs can be turned into conveniently sized billets and sheets by any cabinet shop or hobbyist woodworker with a bandsaw and a thickness planer. This may incur some cost, but, without a doubt, it will be far less than trying to buy "modeling wood" anywhere at retail prices. If you do invest in a small modeler's table saw, it will pay for itself in short order and you will be able to mill all the strip wood you want for free.

One important fact to realize is that excellent modeling wood is not always particularly scarce in the world. There's often just not enough market demand, or in some cases, enough easy access for harvesting, to make it economically attractive to the timber industry to bother harvesting it. They are going to cut what provides the greatest profit, not necessarily what is the greatest wood. We "model lumberjacks" can often scrounge wonderful modeling wood at no cost because we only need small amounts of what the professional loggers consider "trash wood."

There are other sources of modeling wood besides raw timber. Many scratch builders recycle valuable wood for modeling from discarded furniture and paneling. Here again, a lot of this stock can be had for the asking at no cost at all.

Research and experiment with readily available wood species in your own area. Mill your own modeling wood. Free yourself from the tyrrany of the lumber marketplace! Free yourself from the constraints of dimensioned lumber!

Finally, as radical as it may sound, you don't have to limit your modeling to wood, either. Painted models are entirely respectable and, in fact, preferred by many. Models can be made from paper and card stock, too, although I am truly intimidated by the incredible results the master card modelers produce... way above my pay grade. The same goes for metal modelers who perform wonders with brass and silver solder. It's not always necessary to plank a model with boxwood and ebony. :D
You are completley right we don’t need a big lot s of wood for modeling and we are not necesserily obliged to use teak -,black- or mahagoni wood.Many kind of trees soft hard we have here. The main point is all of them are used in bulk form to carpenters ,construction industry etc.but there is no possibility to get conditioned or well dried ready for preparing e.g. for stripe I cuold probably cut small lots from the oak-,olive- ,lime-and pinetrees which I have in my garden prepare them for masts stripes etc.
In the meantime you can finish a ship model.Even a friend of mine owning a Hooby market and one of the first wooden model ship modeler imports All the wood material from abroad .
Regarding the error by the design of the sailing boat :
A 2.block can be attached to the yard and hull opposite to the existing block similar to genova system to make this existing model functional
 
This discussion has drifted from the original cost between kit and scratch but i think that has burned itself out. Now the topic has taken an interesting turn to errors in model building. Because it has started here might as well continue here rather than start a new thread. I have fought this battle on a few topics and lost a number of times. So allow me to give some back round, one of my daughters is a grade school teacher somewhere around 20 years in education so she is no beginner and lectures on education at conferences. She is outspoken and when she sees problems she will make it known. Needless to say, many times her and the school board have been at odds with one another. The point is as she told me people with authority do not like to be told they are wrong or point out mistakes they make. In the end they will use their authority to suppress the problem or force you to go away. This is true in every place there is a ruling class or an authority from a school board to a corporation to an online forum or a simple local group of whatever. This is often called office politics. Bottom line you cannot fight city hall, the elite in any group or those who have even a shred of authority over you. Ego and power take precedence over right or wrong.
I met Harold Hahn at a local model ship club at the Inland Seas Maritime Museum. We hit is off with a common interest, he was doing etchings and prints and i was starting out in Commerical art and graphic design. As we got to know one another i asked if i could make kits from his plans and research, he gave me a hard NO way will i allow my work to be reduces to a kit. In time we did reach a point of a semi-kit where the builder had a lot of scratch work to do. Anyhow, as time went on Harold began to get a lot of blow back from a guild of self-proclaimed experts. They pointed out every error, questioned everything he did pretty much ran him out of the hobby. There were two points of view, polar opposites creating historic ship models and an artistic approach to the subject. What Harold did was his personal style as an artist, his artistic DNA. As he argued the general public would never know if a tiny historical detail was right or wrong it was one big "so what" it is the overall finished piece that had the impact and not if a rigging block was the right size or a gun port was out of place.
We are talking about hobby level kits and personal artistic representation of a subject; little details do not matter. They do matter in the maritime archaeological departments of universities but not here. But i do see the counter point of let the builder beware if you are indeed trying to accomplish realistic representation of a subject and or historic accuracy. Museums make mistakes, researchers make mistakes, many a model of ships have errors. These errors are repeated over and over to the point they are accepted as fact.
kits are a fun pastime hobby a commercialization trying to emulate a fine art reducing it and simplifying it to a common hobby level. Errors are not even considered an issue in this genre.
 
How will we define scratch building when somebody finally creates a full data set of 3D parts printing and laser cutting files sufficient to assemble into a given model ship and starts selling flash drives containing them? Every part will be laser cut and 3D printed by the builder. Will he be a scratch builder then? What is a ship model kit, anyway?

IMHO i would not call that scratch building. The scratch builder is the one who created the full data set and files. The builder of the model would be defined as "scratch built from existing data files" but if he altered the original files to fit his interpretation of the subject than yes, it is scratch built. a fine line indeed.

Sir Edward Hawke the subject in the school is based on the research and drawings done by Hahn but i redid the drawings and changed it to my interpretation of the subject so my work is scratch built. anyone building the model from my laser cut parts and drawings are semi scratch building because the parts are not finished they are considered "blanks" that have to be finished by hand.

True scratch builders are a rare bird anyone who can imagine a subject then starting from nothing create it.

 
True scratch builders are a rare bird anyone who can imagine a subject then starting from nothing create it.
Dave, this is what I alluded to in my post #245.
Now if you can design your own vessel weather by pencil and paper or CAD then take raw materials and go to work, well now you have a category that may just better describe a scratch build.
 
Hi Dave,

First of all, let me congratulate your daughter on her professional stand on educating our young people. As a parent I found it to be necessary to lean on two school districts, Marietta, Ohio and Duluth, Minnesota to make sure that my two children received an education that would prepare them for future success.

I remember criticism of Harold Hahn’s work. His models were works of art and I would love to have one in my collection. He, however, sold his models as art and even in the articles published in the NRJ he would eventually mention some of his artistic liberties. For example, I distinctly remember him mentioning that the cannon barrels that he turned were his own design. As pieces of art, he was selling to sophisticated buyers who could do their own research prior to buying if need be.

Kit manufacturers sell to a different market and have a different obligation. If their advertising says that the kit builds a model that is an artistic representation of a given vessel, that’s ok. The manufacturers of these highly engineered POB kits, however, advertise them as being “museum quality.” At prices beginning at $500 and going up from there customers have a right to get what’s advertised.

The designer of the above longboat who apparently was not a sailor, did make an honest mistake in locating the mainsheet traveler. When he decided to produce a larger scale longboat model kit, he repeated the mistake despite knowing that it was wrong.

Roger
 
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thank you for the comment on my daughter she will fight authority for what is right and she will jeopardize her reputation to make a point. So now she is no longer in the class room she teaches teachers. Takes after her dad i guess.

so getting back to errors in model building, lets break it down. at the top is the actual ship builders they have schools dating back a few hundred years. Their profession is highly skilled and technical. A small error may have big consequences. The very shape of a hull will affect how the ship handles and sails. Every engineering detail is carefully considered. There is no room for errors. In the days of sail wars were won and lost depending on the naval architects skills to design for speed, fire power and maneuverability of the ship.

next is marine archeology where every detail is uncovered, photographed, measured and recorded for future students to refer to and study. In the academic world errors are kept to a minimum and procedures are followed to the letter. Models built are based on the facts and only the facts, if there is missing data it is stated, and reference are quoted as to how and why a missing part was added. Errors or questionable data is reviewed by other in the field. peer reviews.

model building as an art form where highly skilled craftsmen build a fine art representation and collected by royalty and high society in the early days. In modern times there still exist craftsmen and collectors of fine maritime art. As an art it does not have to follow the rules as the above two categories arts very nature is freedom of expression. I got an Email the other day inviting me to take part in a zoom conversation on the errors and mistakes of Harold Hahns work. I hit delete because to me that is silly there are no errors or mistakes in his art. In the words of Salvador Dalí's "art is whatever the artist says it is" painting outside the lines is acceptable. an artist will reshape, transform and reimagine subjects.

at the bottom of the list is the modern day hobby of building model ships. There are no rules it is at the whim of the manufacture to the point of creating kits of ships that never existed. Kits are nothing like the actual construction of how ships were built. Ship were not built with a center profile and bulkheads. ship did not use wooden treenails to hold planking, ships were not double planked. Hobby builders will kit bash a subject to achieve "historical accuracy" when in fact the kit itself is far from historical accuracy so why try to add a part or two and call it historically accurate?

each of the above categories have their own paradigm, their own set of rules and standards. Trying to apply the top catagory to the bottom one does not work. none of them are interchangeable. A serious student of naval architecture would not go to the bottom catagory for information they would go to the top two, knowing darn well the bottom is riddled with errors and make believe.

Kit manufacturers sell to a different market and have a different obligation. If their advertising says that the kit builds a model that is an artistic representation of a given vessel, that’s ok. The manufacturers of these highly engineered POB kits, however, advertise them as being “museum quality.” At prices beginning at $500 and going up from there customers have a right to get what’s advertised.

there is no real definition of "museum quality" it differs from museum to museum so this comes down to let the buyer beware. This is what a forum such as this is for. to inform.

The designer of the above longboat who apparently was not a sailor, did make an honest mistake in locating the mainsheet traveler. When he decided to produce a larger scale longboat model kit, he repeated the mistake despite knowing that it was wrong.

i am not defending the designer i am defending the catagory of "hobby kit" that has no rules just the goal to make money off the kit. It does not matter how refined a kit is or if a builder builds from a kit or scratch. A hobby kit by any other name is still a hobby kit at the bottom of the categories. So you can not apply real world sailing or naval architecture rules and standards to a hobby kit that has no real world function other than a past time hobby.

it may bug the crap out of you that an error continues, and it bugs others Hahn took artistic liberties but at the end of the day it is just a big so what! Those who know see beyond the errors pointing it out is enough. i bet 99.9% of all model ship in the bottom catagory have errors. Just put a wooden dowel in a plank and your wrong. Iron planking spikes were used not wood.

in the words of my daughters lectures. Ego, authority and power grabbing over rules what is right and wrong. blunt force rarely changes anything.
A smart approach is making changes without anyone being aware of it.
 
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