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VOC SPIEGELRETOURSCHIP BATAVIA 1628 - KOLDERSTOK 1:72

Heinrich said:
@Dean62 Exactly Dean! That is the call that I would have to make - given normal space, I would probably go for the "presentation" position, but ultimately all will be dictated by the space available - or rather, the lack thereof.
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On my Cazador, I went with the breech line only, but that was due to supplies....lol. The kit had no provisions for canon tackle... and with 20 cannons, just for the side tackle alone, I would have needed 40 extra eyes and 80 extra small blocks! :eek:
 
@Dean62 Luckily I only have 6 cannons, but even so - should I go for the presentation mode, it's 8 blocks per cannon!

This is from another Dutch build - this time the beautiful Zeven Provincien of Arno Verstegen.

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This definitely seems to be the preferred Dutch choice of display
 
Steef66 said:
Another picture I found on the www was this one

Day_53_-_U.._Cannon.jpg

I love this one, it looks really cleaned up.
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Hello, Mon Ami. While this last photo looks as you mentioned 'cleaned up' it is in my opinion inaccurate. The breeching line is way too short and doesn't secure around cascabel.
The handles of the tools had to be long enough to reach into the entire length of the bore plus have enough length for a sailor to hold with two hands. With the gun run all the way in, there was not enough room to get the tool into the barrel unless it was taken outside the hull, presumably through the gun port.

check this out

 
I seen a lot of these kind of rigging on the cannons on the Dutch builders. But I read a lot of the history of these ships. And the provoost (hope you call this guy so, who was the head of the gunnery) had a chest with a lot of things. And from these tackles he had a few extra in this chest/box as reserve. But not at the cannons. I think like Dean they only use the 2 tackles which where attached to control the gun. And switch them from the front to the back.

Difficult to explain in English.
Even dan nogmaals in het Nederlands. De chef, volgens mij noemde men hem de provoost, had een extra kist met materialen. En daar zaten een paar reserve takels in. Op het geschut zaten er maar 2 gemonteerd, die men kon gebruiken om tussen de ogen het geschut naar alle kanten uit te trekken samen met het breekijzer. Die blokken op die takels kosten veel geld, vandaar dat men met minimaal aantal aan de slag ging. Ging er een takel kapot dan kreeg je een nieuwe uit de kist. Op de stuklijsten stonden ook niet zoveel takels vermeld zoals je ze op modellen van veel Nederlandse bouwers ziet. Dit is dan waarschijnlijk ook niet helemaal correct zoal zij het doen.
 
Heinrich said:
Thank you for your input Jim. I would assume it is addressed at @Steef66 Stephan, as, unfortunately, I do not have access to YouTube / Vimeo and the like.
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I technically quoted Stephan's post, but the video is for everyone. This is unfortunate, you cannot watch it.
 
Jimsky said:
Hello, Mon Ami. While this last photo looks as you mentioned 'cleaned up' it is in my opinion inaccurate. The breeching line is way too short and doesn't secure around cascabel.
The handles of the tools had to be long enough to reach into the entire length of the bore plus have enough length for a sailor to hold with two hands. With the gun run all the way in, there was not enough room to get the tool into the barrel unless it was taken outside the hull, presumably through the gun port.

check this out

Click to expand...
As we can see there is no recoil with the faux firing causing the side tackles to fly about. Also look at all of the deck space taken by the gun crew members on each side. . . now think about two crews side by side and their coordination. Gun battles were won by sustaining the highest rate of fire so the crews could be tripping over each other, even with frequent live fore evolutions. Nice video though. Rich (PT-2)
 
The activity level on SOS is great. I really had to scroll down the page just to find my build log. The limited time available was all devoted to the rigging of the cannons.

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Starting the production line on blocks. Mercifully there are only 6 cannons that need to be rigged. :)

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The "almost-complete" production line before fitting started taking place. One previously completed cannon and carriage was sacrificed in lieu of experimentation - hence the 6th cannon that still needs to be remade.

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A cardboard template was made to simulate the inner bulwarks and gunports. This way the exact heights and positioning could be determined.

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First three cannons partially rigged and dry-fitted. Here you can see the exact extent of the cramped space. If I install the other blocks as indicated by the red dots, they will be almost on top of the ones installed to the carriages. The only "solution" I can see is to install them on the hatch which is, of course, completely unrealistic. Also bear in mind that the lifeboat will be installed above the hatches so the extra blocks will be invisible in any case. Their only visible evidence will be the ropes running from the gun carriages to the hatch.

Food for thought for another day.
 
@Steef66 Stephan I tend to agree with you about that rigging section.

@Pathfinder65 Jan, the problem is that the blocks will be right underneath the lifeboat, so they will mot be visible at all - not even when viewed from directly above. All you will see is the rope running from the carriage and then disappearing somewhere underneath the lifeboat.
 
BUT THEN !!! In steps my experienced Dutch friends on Modelbouwforum.nl and before you know it the whole issue has been solved! I bet you you have never seen cannons rigged like this - but then again - this is what makes these Dutch ships so unique to build! Thank you Hans Groenenberg, @pingu57 (Peter), Koos and Herman!

DSC_2205.JPG

So ... @Pathfinder65 Jan, it seems like you will get your mysterious, disappearing rigging and blocks after all! ROTF
 
Heinrich said:
BUT THEN !!! In steps my experienced Dutch friends on Modelbouwforum.nl and before you know it the whole issue has been solved! I bet you you have never seen cannons rigged like this - but then again - this is what makes these Dutch ships so unique to build! Thank you Hans Groenenberg, @pingu57 (Peter), Koos and Herman!

View attachment 256585

So ... @Pathfinder65 Jan, it seems like you will get your mysterious, disappearing rigging and blocks after all! ROTF
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That looks great Heinrich! I love the rope coils done in a realistic manner. ;)
 
@Dean62 Hi Dean! Thank you for the kind reply. The execution on Hans Groeneberg's Duyfken does indeed look great! But ... now yours truly still have to execute it on the Haarlem so that it looks like the rigging on the Duyfken!;)
 
I seen these solutions he made on the Duyfken. But if it is correct? I don’t believe so, but as you know they do not accept criticism on that platform so I don’t mentioned it there. But I believe, because I read a lot books and do a lot of study, that these ropes where not installed when the boats where in there place on the deck. Maybe on top of the cannon to the top of the gunports as an extra securing of the cannon like Peter (Pinguin) mentioned.
Herman Ketting showed them like this:
IMG_0301.JPG just like Harland below

Harland wrote: During sailing the guns on the upper decks where secured on the run out position "without the back tackles in place*". The longboats where placed on the deck and secured. This was also for the lifeboats the case, with just one difference that the boats where prepared for a quick hoisting out of the ship. In case of a man over board for example.
Source J. Harland Seamanship in the age of sail.
gun securing.jpgPicture of Harland
* "without the back tackles in place" source: Mondfeld, Wolfram. Bayerlein, Anton. Klingenbrunn, Marietta. Schiffsgeschutze 1350 bis 1870
In this last source they also mentioning that the tackles hooked off while firing. To avoid that the cannon rolled over the tackles during recoil.

Ab Hoving recommend the book of Harland at a very high value, and I must say it is.
During battle a lot of preparing took place on board. On the main deck to lessen the change of loss, livestock and valuables were placed in the boats that where lowered over the ship side and where recovered later. The cannons where prepared for the battle and fully rigged to used them.
Source: The American Revolution 1775–1783: An Encyclopedia Volume 2
In another source I can't find back, it could be Steel, they drag the boats behind them on long lines, to keep them away from the battle. When they where on the deck, they could be shot to pieces. And get lost. Even the space they take on the deck is necessary during battle.

There is also a movie you must see. There is a good look on how things where going those days on these ships. I think the director of that movie did a lot of study too. :) It is the movie with Russel Crowe – Master and Commander.
 
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