What does it mean"SCRATCH" ?

GaryA said:
Hi Ian, Actually in the carving world I do belong to, they say the Jacaranda tree belongs to the Rosewood family.
I have also heard it is classed as a weed in Queensland in some parts as it grows prolifically and out of control. is that true?
They are a Beautiful tree when in flower also. We have a lot of areas around Perth with them in backyards. I secretly think to myself "Fall over and I will cut you up".
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Not really a weed in our part of Queensland but it certainly grows quickly and spreads quite well from wind blown seed. I always say they flower for my birthday.
I'm actually growing two bonsai jacarandas at the moment. They are worth hundreds of dollars to buy so I decided to add a couple to my bench of bonsai plants. So far so good.
Anyway, a bit off topic here!
 
Finally, a discussion on the definition of scratch building. In todays world we have so many interpretations.
Scratch building. Today there are so many machines that make it easier to make parts. And significant skill needs to be learned to design parts in CAD and then there is the learning to operate a modern machine.

A model where every thing used on the model was made/carved/shaped/ built by a single modeler.

Humm.
What about parts that were printed on a 3 D printer.
Parts made by a CNC machine.
What about parts that were machines using a duplicator, or by a computer.
What about parts made by another modeler and installed by you even though you have the skill to make them but just choose the easy way out.
What about parts made by a model ship supplier?
What about the use of plywood?
Then there are prepared parts in brass.
Do phot etched parts need to be designed by you and made by you?

Where do we draw the line when models are being judged as SCRATCH BUILT.
 
Steef66 said:
:) actually I'm wasn't joking. https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/hohenzollernmodell-1660-1670-scale-1-75-pof-build-by-stephan-kertész-steef66.11344/
ROTF
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Hi Steef66. I went to your site and saw you use AutoCAD. How much did you pay for that? And are there any versions that do the same job as the Real Autocad with 3d or do you have to pay out the huge money they are asking for and then the huge rent?
Man, I thought this was a hobby, not someone else's bank account!! lol
Please understand I am not referring to you, just you may be much better off than myself. If I had the chance I would certainly have it on my desktop.
I am just making it clear that I was not having a go at you.
 
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Hi Steef66. I went to your site and saw you use AutoCAD. How much did you pay for that? And are there any versions that do the same job as the Real Autocad with 3d or you have to pay out the huge money they are asking for and then the huge rent on top of it?
Man, I thought this was a hobby, not someone else's bank account!! lol

there are options like Fusion360 is free for hobby use, then Turbo Cad which is a reasonable cost Sketchup has a free version as well as blender. tinker CAD
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
Hi Steef66. I went to your site and saw you use AutoCAD. How much did you pay for that? And are there any versions that do the same job as the Real Autocad with 3d or you have to pay out the huge money they are asking for and then the huge rent on top of it?
Man, I thought this was a hobby, not someone else's bank account!! lol

there are options like Fusion360 is free for hobby use, then Turbo Cad which is a reasonable cost Sketchup has a free version as well as blender. tinker CAD
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Ok that's interesting I do have Sketchup free but it works but doesn't work if you get my drift. Maybe it's me. as I have been frustrated over these free programs and they only seem to go so far. In this sense, I stop and think what else am I going to get extra if I buy the full version?
 

Ship Model Classifications​

Class A​

Scratch-Built Model : Model built entirely from scratch materials by the builder with no commercially fabricated parts except cordage, chain and belaying pins.

Class B​

Modified Scratch-Built Model : Model built from scratch, but supplemented by the use of some commercially fabricated accessories.

Class C​

Modified Kit Model: Model built from materials provided in commercial kit, supplemented by other commercially fabricated parts or by scratch-built parts.

Class D​

Kit Model : Model built entirely from materials provided in commercial kits.
 
Ok that's interesting I do have Sketchup free but it works but doesn't work if you get my drift. Maybe it's me. as I have been frustrated over these free programs and they only seem to go so far. In this sense, I stop and think what else am I going to get extra if I buy the full version?

that is why they are free because they do not include all the tools in the paid versions. I also have Sketchup and some things are difficult to do but there are work arounds and you can buy plug ins at a reasonable price.
The best is fusion360 but it does have a steep learning curve.

you can find old versions of AutoCad on CD i am using Auto Cad 2004 which does everything i need for 2D drawing.
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
Ok that's interesting I do have Sketchup free but it works but doesn't work if you get my drift. Maybe it's me. as I have been frustrated over these free programs and they only seem to go so far. In this sense, I stop and think what else am I going to get extra if I buy the full version?

that is why they are free because they do not include all the tools in the paid versions. I also have Sketchup and some things are difficult to do but there are work arounds and you can buy plug ins at a reasonable price.
The best is fusion360 but it does have a steep learning curve.

you can find old versions of AutoCad on CD i am using Auto Cad 2004 which does everything i need for 2D drawing.
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Yeah, I have an engineering mate who had a copy of AutoCAD and I will give him a call to see if he has it still and would let me use it for a bit. First, have to learn how to use it.
 
GaryA said:
How much did you pay for that?
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I got it for free, an old version 2017. For my use perfect. But like above said, fusion is free at use.
There are also a lot of youtube video's to learn it. Very easy to follow and learn. Look here:
Post in thread 'Hohenzollernmodell 1660-1670 Scale 1/75 POF build by Stephan Kertész (Steef66)' https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/hohenzollernmodell-1660-1670-scale-1-75-pof-build-by-stephan-kertész-steef66.11344/post-290633
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:

Ship Model Classifications​

Class A​

Scratch-Built Model : Model built entirely from scratch materials by the builder with no commercially fabricated parts except cordage, chain and belaying pins.

Class B​

Modified Scratch-Built Model : Model built from scratch, but supplemented by the use of some commercially fabricated accessories.

Class C​

Modified Kit Model: Model built from materials provided in commercial kit, supplemented by other commercially fabricated parts or by scratch-built parts.

Class D​

Kit Model : Model built entirely from materials provided in commercial kits.
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Hi, Dave, this does ring a bell as I have a friend while at work was Building Model Ships and he referred to these grades but that was about 5 or six years ago. Glad to be refreshed to understand.
I look at this chart even before I start my Bounty build and I figure I should be able to fabricate all as described at Class B. I see the usage of AutoCAD is not an issue and if pieces are cut from a laser cutter there is no problems with that also. An example can be you have a laser cutter and you make up your own programs but you should make up the wood from a tree etc, the parts are cut out of I presume. Having plans and such is ok for the "B" class build?
For an example of a Class "C" model I had to make up some very intricate items by hand from wood I had sawn up and adjusted as the kit was incomplete and not correct with its dimensions and kit supplies.
I guess most kits are not fully class "D" model making kits these days unfortunately as they do creep from "D" to "C" as explained above. I have two type of kits from the same supplier with the same problem described above
 
Ship Model Classifications (alt.version)

Class A
Exceptionally happy/satisfying/pleasurable build

Class B
Happy build with small annoyances

Class C
Happy build with big frustations

Class D
Build ending up in the attic/waste bin/fireplace

------
 
John Hendrix said:
Ship Model Classifications (alt.version)

Class A
Exceptionally happy/satisfying/pleasurable build

Class B
Happy build with small annoyances

Class C
Happy build with big frustations

Class D
Build ending up in the attic/waste bin/fireplace

------
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All modelers can find all these feelings in all these "classes"
There are scratch modelers thrown the model into the bin
and also
very happy kit modelers (like myself)
 
@John Hendrix - Kit models thrown in the attic/waste bin? I had plastic sailing ship models that I built when I was 16 on display in my residence for over 40 years, until age made them fall apart. I m till very proud of what I built at that early age. Did Olha Batchvarov throw away her first kit model, the San Giovanni Battista? Certainly not. No, I believe you underestimate how much modelers love their early kit-built models. Your values on what is worth building may be based on your advanced, even expert level of skill and experience, and that doesn't translate to us beginners quite, who have a different perspective. Some of us discard the early, crude attempts at modeling in favor of keeping the latest, best models due t o lack of room or other reasons, but that's not true for all of us. As one develop skills, it is easy to forget how things were when one began. Looking back at my earliest models, I am very surprised to see how far things have improved, and that's been very encouraging. Each of us sees the value of models, no matter how basic or advanced, differently.
 
DARIVS ARCHITECTVS said:
@John Hendrix - Kit models thrown in the attic/waste bin? I had plastic sailing ship models that I built when I was 16 on display in my residence for over 40 years, until age made them fall apart. I m till very proud of what I built at that early age. Did Olha Batchvarov throw away her first kit model, the San Giovanni Battista? Certainly not. No, I believe you underestimate how much modelers love their early kit-built models. Your values on what is worth building may be based on your advanced, even expert level of skill and experience, and that doesn't translate to us beginners quite, who have a different perspective. Some of us discard the early, crude attempts at modeling in favor of keeping the latest, best models due t o lack of room or other reasons, but that's not true for all of us. As one develop skills, it is easy to forget how things were when one began. Looking back at my earliest models, I am very surprised to see how far things have improved, and that's been very encouraging. Each of us sees the value of models, no matter how basic or advanced, differently.
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Darius my friend.. you completely missed the point of my post;-) ..I totally agree with all you wrote!

I will try to explain;
A 'classification' from A to Z or 1 to 100 to me implies a value scale of 'best' to 'worst', most valuable to least valuable etc.
And I feel that the A-D classes from scratch "down to" kit are meant to be a scale of craftmanship needed to build a model.

My point is, that this is not the point of our hobby. The reason for building model ships is the relaxation, gaining knowledge,
satisfaction, pride of increasing craftmanship, maybe admiration that it brings us.
Increasing craftmanship with experience is a means to that end.

That's why I thought of presenting a different scale, based on that premise.
And my class D was meant as a funny way to illustrate the least satisfying result of our activity. A model that is discarded, abandoned,
thrown against a wall in frustration. As a matter of speech!

I have some old models that are Class F in terms of craftmanship, but that I cherish for a whole lot of other reasons.
I have some others that I gave up on, they ended up in the attic, and after several times moving house I finally threw them away.
And there are a few that I proudly display in our house, and that give me and my family pleasure every day.

So I agree, with you 100%. This talk of scratch building vs kit building to me is completely besides the point.
It opens the door to elitism, lack of respect or understanding for the struggles of beginners etc.
So I just wanted to redirect, in my own silly way, the discussion a bit more towards to what really matters imho;
the pleasure our hobby gives us (and let's hope our families) ;-)
 
"My point is, that this is not the point of our hobby. The reason for building model ships is the relaxation, gaining knowledge,
satisfaction, pride of increasing craftmanship, maybe admiration that it brings us. "
Increasing craftmanship with experience is a means to that end.
To me this says it all! at least for me.
 
John Hendrix said:
Darius my friend.. you completely missed the point of my post;-) ..I totally agree with all you wrote!

I will try to explain;
A 'classification' from A to Z or 1 to 100 to me implies a value scale of 'best' to 'worst', most valuable to least valuable etc.
And I feel that the A-D classes from scratch "down to" kit are meant to be a scale of craftmanship needed to build a model.

My point is, that this is not the point of our hobby. The reason for building model ships is the relaxation, gaining knowledge,
satisfaction, pride of increasing craftmanship, maybe admiration that it brings us.
Increasing craftmanship with experience is a means to that end.

That's why I thought of presenting a different scale, based on that premise.
And my class D was meant as a funny way to illustrate the least satisfying result of our activity. A model that is discarded, abandoned,
thrown against a wall in frustration. As a matter of speech!

I have some old models that are Class F in terms of craftmanship, but that I cherish for a whole lot of other reasons.
I have some others that I gave up on, they ended up in the attic, and after several times moving house I finally threw them away.
And there are a few that I proudly display in our house, and that give me and my family pleasure every day.

So I agree, with you 100%. This talk of scratch building vs kit building to me is completely besides the point.
It opens the door to elitism, lack of respect or understanding for the struggles of beginners etc.
So I just wanted to redirect, in my own silly way, the discussion a bit more towards to what really matters imho;
the pleasure our hobby gives us (and let's hope our families) ;-)
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Ahh. Sorry I missed the humor on your point. I can see the sarcasm and humor after re-reading it. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Since I have never entered a model in a display show, I am unfamiliar with the classifications. Dave listed them out, and they make sense from seen as a method of grouping models according to skill level. It would make no sense to compare a popsicle stick model boat to a scratch built, rigged, three deck ship of the line of course. Again, thanks for your reply. ;) Thumbsup
 
John Hendrix said:
Darius my friend.. you completely missed the point of my post;-) ..I totally agree with all you wrote!

I will try to explain;
A 'classification' from A to Z or 1 to 100 to me implies a value scale of 'best' to 'worst', most valuable to least valuable etc.
And I feel that the A-D classes from scratch "down to" kit are meant to be a scale of craftmanship needed to build a model.

My point is, that this is not the point of our hobby. The reason for building model ships is the relaxation, gaining knowledge,
satisfaction, pride of increasing craftmanship, maybe admiration that it brings us.
Increasing craftmanship with experience is a means to that end.

That's why I thought of presenting a different scale, based on that premise.
And my class D was meant as a funny way to illustrate the least satisfying result of our activity. A model that is discarded, abandoned,
thrown against a wall in frustration. As a matter of speech!

I have some old models that are Class F in terms of craftmanship, but that I cherish for a whole lot of other reasons.
I have some others that I gave up on, they ended up in the attic, and after several times moving house I finally threw them away.
And there are a few that I proudly display in our house, and that give me and my family pleasure every day.
Scratch building in model shipbuilding refers to constructing a model entirely from raw materials rather than using a kit. It’s a rewarding but meticulous process, requiring precision and creativity. For digital modelers or anyone managing reference files on a Mac, keeping your workspace organized is key. A simple trick is to hide a file on mac less frequently used files to avoid clutter, which you can learn. Whether you’re working with physical materials or digital resources, maintaining an organized environment helps keep your focus on the build.
So I agree, with you 100%. This talk of scratch building vs kit building to me is completely besides the point.
It opens the door to elitism, lack of respect or understanding for the struggles of beginners etc.
So I just wanted to redirect, in my own silly way, the discussion a bit more towards to what really matters imho;
the pleasure our hobby gives us (and let's hope our families) ;-)
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Agree!
 
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I do not enter my models in contests and have never tried to sell one. There is only one “customer” that I try to satisfy; ME!

My personal standards/ work methods:
All of my models meet 1A classification.
I do not use CAD/ CNC/3-D printing. Life is too short to fool with these

BTW: The term scratch is cooking. Food made from scratch is not made from commercial mixes.

Roger
 
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