HMS Victory - Trafalgar 1805 - flags flown as it broke the Franco-Spanish line

[jongr90]

Hello,

I am currently working on a 1:200 scale HMS Victory. Eventually I want to turn it into a diorama (with the sea below, cannonball splashes around it, etc.) of the HMS Victory charging the Franco-Spanish line at Trafalgar. Perhaps eventually I'll be able to scratch-build a 1:200 Redoutable but I digress...

Does anyone know what flags were flown on the different masts at this particular moment? I've been looking at paintings of the battle and a number of them have different arrangements. Most have Nelson's final order "Engage the enemy more closely" consisting of signal flags 1 and 6 on the mainmast, the Admiral's rank flag on the foremast, nothing on the mizzen, the Union Jack on the fore t'gallant stay, and of course White Ensign on the stern. However, I have seen different combinations of this as well with additional White Ensigns, or perhaps the rank flag in the mainmast, etc.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Uwek]

This is a typical question for our Victory specialist @dafi

 

[Gjsharpe]

Lieutenant Pasco (Nelsons' Signals Officer) was stationed at the after end of the poop deck which is where the flag locker was situated. This is where the famous signals were hoisted from and my understanding is that the signal flags were hoisted to the mizzen top. That is where signal No. 16 would have flown when breaking the line. The White ensign at the stern and the union jack on the bowsprit would be standard as you know, but I can't offer anything on other flags. Incidentally, although my Victory model isn't rigged with sails, I did hoist No16 at the mizzen top! Best of luck with your project. It sounds pretty awesome.

 

[EIHood]

Some contemporary paintings show Victory fitted with royals early in her career, AND at Trafalgar. Although I have seen many models of Victory over the past fifty-odd years, none were fitted with royal spars. Does anyone know if Victory ever actually carried royals? Are plans/drawings of this arrangement available?

 

[MAVERIK]

 

[MAVERIK]

 

[jongr90]

Lieutenant Pasco (Nelsons' Signals Officer) was stationed at the after end of the poop deck which is where the flag locker was situated. This is where the famous signals were hoisted from and my understanding is that the signal flags were hoisted to the mizzen top. That is where signal No. 16 would have flown when breaking the line. The White ensign at the stern and the union jack on the bowsprit would be standard as you know, but I can't offer anything on other flags. Incidentally, although my Victory model isn't rigged with sails, I did hoist No16 at the mizzen top! Best of luck with your project. It sounds pretty awesome.View attachment 394869

Thank you. I suppose this adds another possible consideration. I think I like this configuration better with the signals on the mizzen top since it frees up the main top for the Admiral's rank flag. It makes more sense to me: in most paintings of the era, I always see the commissioning pennant on the main top, but apparently this is replaced by a rank flag when there is an admiral on board. It would make sense that the rank flag would also therefore be placed at the main top.

 

[jongr90]

View attachment 394904

Thank you. Though my understanding of the events at Trafalgar is that Nelson's famous signal was sent to the fleet a 1-2 hours before the actual battle. During the battle, only signal No. 16 was flying: "Engage the enemy more closely."

 

[Gjsharpe]

Thank you. Though my understanding of the events at Trafalgar is that Nelson's famous signal was sent to the fleet a 1-2 hours before the actual battle. During the battle, only signal No. 16 was flying: "Engage the enemy more closely."

Yes, the famous signal was sent in advance of physical engagement. Incidentally, it took 12 separate hoists to convey the message, eight for the first eight words and five to spell out the word DUTY. Each hoist would be hauled in sequence to the top of the mizzen mast, remaining there until acknowledged by the other ships. Quite a laborious business!

 

[Don Case]

What kind of boat is this??

 

[Gjsharpe]

What kind of boat is this??

View attachment 395044

Don, the early submarine is possibly A or B Class. Probably the latter. Its a difficult angle to be sure.

 

[Jimsky]

Holland 1 was the Royal Navy’s first submarine. It was a significant craft in the development of the submarine as a weapon of war. Designed by American John Phillip Holland – after whom it was named – it was launched in 1901. Originally, the Admiralty didn’t want to be involved but, with other countries developing submarines, they soon ordered five such craft.



Holland 1 at sea. (Pic credits to Michael W Pocock and martitimequest.com)


The Royal Navy’s first submarine: Holland No.3 passing HMS Victory in Portsmouth harbour. The Holland class comprised five submarines in total, each with a crew of eight. (Pic: Campbell McCutcheon)



Holland 1 on display: the outer hull is well preserved. The Holland Gallery at Gosport is maintained at less that 40% relative humidity. Visitors are able to look inside the submarine and see its internal mechanisms. (Pic: Robert Edmonds)

 

[jongr90]

Some contemporary paintings show Victory fitted with royals early in her career, AND at Trafalgar. Although I have seen many models of Victory over the past fifty-odd years, none were fitted with royal spars. Does anyone know if Victory ever actually carried royals? Are plans/drawings of this arrangement available?

Moving back to the original topic a bit (though all this submarine business is very fascinating) anyone have any ideas as to the usage of royals above the t'gallant? Any search on the interwebs using HMS Victory and the word royal always returns something relating to the Royal Navy!

 

[Gjsharpe]

Moving back to the original topic a bit (though all this submarine business is very fascinating) anyone have any ideas as to the usage of royals above the t'gallant? Any search on the interwebs using HMS Victory and the word royal always returns something relating to the Royal Navy!

I have done some research myself now and see the problem. I have seen paintings of Victory with studsails and royals set, others with just studsails sn some witout either. Very confusing. Slightly more helpful, though not conclusive, is note in my copy of John Mckay' "Anatomy of the Ship - the 100 Gun Victory" stating that First Rates carried Royals for fore and main masts. Another source , Alan McGowan's "HMS Victory, Her construction, career and restoration" is full of plans from original historical documents. The sail plan shows studding sails, but not Royals. I can find no reference to Royals in any of the accounts of the battle, so I think the jury is still out. I would be interested to hear if you ever get to the bottom of this quandary.

 

[Gjsharpe]

Thank you. I suppose this adds another possible consideration. I think I like this configuration better with the signals on the mizzen top since it frees up the main top for the Admiral's rank flag. It makes more sense to me: in most paintings of the era, I always see the commissioning pennant on the main top, but apparently this is replaced by a rank flag when there is an admiral on board. It would make sense that the rank flag would also therefore be placed at the main top.

I cam across this picture of the the signal locker on Victory's poop deck, if it is of any use in your modelling. I have never seen it represented on a Victory model up to now.

 

[Uwek]

I cam across this picture of the the signal locker on Victory's poop deck, if it is of any use in your modelling. I have never seen it represented on a Victory model up to now.
View attachment 395193

Take a look at dafis Victory in 1:100

To victory and beyond ...

...hihihihihi... YES, the view from up there is gigantic! Downwards too :-) But most of the crew were just looking up ;-) But there in front it is not bad either. Especially when the Bonnie has gone into the net with you - nice play on words :-) Because it's homey there too, the...

shipsofscale.com

 

[Don Case]

Moving back to the original topic a bit (though all this submarine business is very fascinating) anyone have any ideas as to the usage of royals above the t'gallant? Any search on the interwebs using HMS Victory and the word royal always returns something relating to the Royal Navy!

Sorry

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

It is my understanding that royal sails were very rarely used, if ever. That was certainly true of HMS Sovereign of the Seas in 1637. They were only used in the lightest of wind, usually only for show, and did little to contribute speed to the vessel.

 

[dafi]

Sorry for the late reply.

Yes Nelsons famous signal was taken down long before the battle. As mentioned above correctly, signal Nr 16 was up until the frensh took it down with the rest of the mizzen. Here an contemporary source of what was set in general.



Also at one point there was the message set "prepare to anchor" but I can´t recall to when this one was flown.

XXXDAn

PS: Here is Lt. Pasco looking for flags 1 and 6 ;-)

 

[Gjsharpe]

Sorry for the late reply.

Yes Nelsons famous signal was taken down long before the battle. As mentioned above correctly, signal Nr 16 was up until the frensh took it down with the rest of the mizzen. Here an contemporary source of what was set in general.

View attachment 395506

Also at one point there was the message set "prepare to anchor" but I can´t recall to when this one was flown.

XXXDAn

PS: Here is Lt. Pasco looking for flags 1 and 6 ;-)

That's them, sitting on top of the locker!