A Dutch Fluyt in shell first, reconstructing the "Ghost ship" scale 1:36

[Heinrich]

Dear Maarten. I applaud you for exploring your interpretation of the model that you are building. I fail to see why a fluyt from 1691 (which clearly shows a different interpretation to De Zwaan from 1636 should be regarded as the standard in fluyt shipbuilding. 55 years in era-difference covers a wide time-span and is a perfect explanation of why there may be differences in hull geometry. Hydrodynamic reports have shown that later-era Dutch ships were not necessarily better sailing ships than the older ones - they were merely better load-carriers, whether for goods in the case of merchantmen or armament in the case of men-o-war.

 

[Maarten]

I decided first to finish the PS bow section to see how the discussed bow shape evolves.
I have added the second plank on the first bilge strake and on top of that a longer second bilge strake.
You now see the bow further develop and sofar I like what I see, a full underwater shape of the bow. After the 3rd strake I decide if this is the way to go or if I need to change the design to a more sleek shape.

The second bilge bow plank directly has far less curvature and the third will be straight.



See for your selve the current shape

 

[dockattner]

It won't win a race across the Baltic with a shape like that...but for carrying cargo...

 

[Maarten]

It won't win a race across the Baltic with a shape like that...but for carrying cargo...

You don t build a city like Amsterdam by winning a race across the Baltic

 

[janzwart]

Maarten,
A long time I was waiting how you would solve the perpendicular line in the bottom on the bow. Now I see your solution, but it seems a bit strange. Yes the corner is rather sharp and could be rounder. But what I don't like more is the angle where the strake meets the stem. This is far more less then 90 degrees. And the front of your bottom planks is straight. This leads, I think, to a bit sharp bow in stead of a round bow.
I would expect a more round line as I draw in your picture in red. I think that would result in a much rounder bow, as flutes have.

I like to see, and discuss, your build on 30 sept in the Scheepvaartmuseum in Amsterdam. By the way, we stand next to each other in the museum, both with a flute under construction.

 

[Maarten]

Maarten,
A long time I was waiting how you would solve the perpendicular line in the bottom on the bow. Now I see your solution, but it seems a bit strange. Yes the corner is rather sharp and could be rounder. But what I don't like more is the angle where the strake meets the stem. This is far more less then 90 degrees. And the front of your bottom planks is straight. This leads, I think, to a bit sharp bow in stead of a round bow.
I would expect a more round line as I draw in your picture in red. I think that would result in a much rounder bow, as flutes have.

I like to see, and discuss, your build on 30 sept in the Scheepvaartmuseum in Amsterdam. By the way, we stand next to each other in the museum, both with a flute under construction.

Hi Jan,

This is exactly the shape a fluyt in the 2nd half of the 17th century has, no round bow but a nearly square one. Therefore you need this construction.
See below pictures of my actual wreck as reference, you can clearly see the angled planking.

 

[Heinrich]

And that is exactly why I say - you are not building "A" fluyt - you are building a very specific ship. If that is the shape of the ship you are building, then your vision is accurate - it may not apply to other examples of fluyt models, but it certainly applies to yours. BTW, Maarten, is that the painting of the Akerboom in the background?

 

[RDN1954]

I decided first to finish the PS bow section to see how the discussed bow shape evolves.
I have added the second plank on the first bilge strake and on top of that a longer second bilge strake.
You now see the bow further develop and sofar I like what I see, a full underwater shape of the bow. After the 3rd strake I decide if this is the way to go or if I need to change the design to a more sleek shape.

The second bilge bow plank directly has far less curvature and the third will be straight.

View attachment 394478

See for your selve the current shape
View attachment 394479View attachment 394480View attachment 394481View attachment 394482View attachment 394483View attachment 394484View attachment 394485View attachment 394486

I got to admit that I didn't expect this outcome. My fear was that the extreme curvature of the first bilge strake would be directly transfered and become even more pronounced in the second strake, but look and behold, it appears to be working out alright. Those old Dutch shipwrights were quite some smarta...s and quite frankly, so are you, Maarten, job well done!

 

[AnobiumPunctatum]

Only one word: BRILLIANT!

 

[Peter Voogt]

I decided first to finish the PS bow section to see how the discussed bow shape evolves.
I have added the second plank on the first bilge strake and on top of that a longer second bilge strake.
You now see the bow further develop and sofar I like what I see, a full underwater shape of the bow. After the 3rd strake I decide if this is the way to go or if I need to change the design to a more sleek shape.

The second bilge bow plank directly has far less curvature and the third will be straight.

View attachment 394478

See for your selve the current shape
View attachment 394479View attachment 394480View attachment 394481View attachment 394482View attachment 394483View attachment 394484View attachment 394485View attachment 394486

It’s looking nice, Maarten. And it is actually logical that 'the bend' levels out. The hull also deviates further and further outwards and therefore flattens 'the bend' further. But that’s my point of view …….
Regard, Peter

 

[Heinrich]

It’s looking nice, Maarten. And it is actually logical that 'the bend' levels out. The hull also deviates further and further outwards and therefore flattens 'the bend' further. But that’s my point of view …….
Regard, Peter

That's the way I understand it as well, Peter.

 

[Steef66]

I will be patience waiting to see the result. But it looks going the right way.

 

[AnobiumPunctatum]

Ik kijk er erg naar uit om jou en je model morgen in Amsterdam te ontmoeten.

I am very excited to meet you and your model tomorrow in Amsterdam.

 

[Maarten]

Ik kijk er erg naar uit om jou en je model morgen in Amsterdam te ontmoeten.

I am very excited to meet you and your model tomorrow in Amsterdam.

Hi Michael,

It was fun meeting you in Amsterdam. Your work on your Alert is impressive and as discussed is the engineered 18th century English ship something totaly different then a 17th century Dutch ship where there is more trial and error leading to redo's

 

[Maarten]

Today I show you the begin of a redo.
As discussed previously the bend in the PS bilge plank is most probably to extreme, but to see the outcome of the shape I decided to continue and finish it with three bilge strakes as an experiment.
The three strakes I finished before taking the model to Amsterdam where I could discuss the shape with Ab Hoving.
See below the three strakes on the PS bilge.











The problem is the first bilge strake, it has a severe bend in it to fit around the floor. If such a plank would be available it would be a very expensive plank as the curved oak would normally be used for knees which are some of the most expensive parts in the ship.
So based on this and the input of Ab and Waldemars drawings I decided to make it slightly less blund so the first bilge plank is nearly straight and therefore cheap.

The new shape you can see below on the SB side, the PS side is still the old shape which is great for comparence.

 

[Steef66]

Brave decision. Good luck with the redo. Looking forward.

 

[Bela]

Good work!
A comparison of the first two bilge planks on the plane would be interesting. Greetings bela

 

[Peter Voogt]

Today I show you the begin of a redo.
As discussed previously the bend in the PS bilge plank is most probably to extreme, but to see the outcome of the shape I decided to continue and finish it with three bilge strakes as an experiment.
The three strakes I finished before taking the model to Amsterdam where I could discuss the shape with Ab Hoving.
See below the three strakes on the PS bilge.

View attachment 398280

View attachment 398281

View attachment 398282

View attachment 398283

View attachment 398284

The problem is the first bilge strake, it has a severe bend in it to fit around the floor. If such a plank would be available it would be a very expensive plank as the curved oak would normally be used for knees which are some of the most expensive parts in the ship.
So based on this and the input of Ab and Waldemars drawings I decided to make it slightly less blund so the first bilge plank is nearly straight and therefore cheap.

The new shape you can see below on the SB side, the PS side is still the old shape which is great for comparence.
View attachment 398285View attachment 398286View attachment 398287View attachment 398288View attachment 398289

It looks good, Maarten. You could also have opted for a 'flatter' rounding, but then you would lose the 'squared or edging' shape. A nice intermediate solution.
Regards, Peter

 

[-Waldemar-]

.​

I see, Maarten, that you have decided on a compromise of sorts. I keep my fingers crossed that it will be enough.

I realise this may be a bit counter-intuitive, but the smoother roundness of the shape of the boundary of the 'flat' does not necessarily automatically translate into a sharper ship's bow shape. The fullness or sharpness of the bow is most dependent on the shape of the foremost lead frame (so one should rather not delay the erection of this frame any longer).

In contrast, the shape of the boundary of the "flat" has a decisive influence on the planking termination angle, both to the stem post and the wale.

Anyway, are you going to continue both sides in these two different ways, or do you intend to make them symmetrical?

.​

 

[Maarten]

.​

I see, Maarten, that you have decided on a compromise of sorts. I keep my fingers crossed that it will be enough.

I realise this may be a bit counter-intuitive, but the smoother roundness of the shape of the boundary of the 'flat' does not necessarily automatically translate into a sharper ship's bow shape. The fullness or sharpness of the bow is most dependent on the shape of the foremost lead frame (so one should rather not delay the erection of this frame any longer).

In contrast, the shape of the boundary of the "flat" has a decisive influence on the planking termination angle, both to the stem post and the wale.

Anyway, are you going to continue both sides in these two different ways, or do you intend to make them symmetrical?

.​

Hi Waldemar,

I had the same discussion with Ab who mentioned to also give it a more round shape in the lower bow.

The reason why I choose this set up is based on the wreck of Anna Maria a late 17th century fluyt in Swedish waters, you most probably know her.

Anna Maria - Download Free 3D model by SWEDISH NATIONAL MARITIME AND TRANSPORT MUSEUMS (@maritima)

In Dalarö harbour, close to Stockholm, lies the wreck of the flute ship Anna Maria on 21 meters depth. A flute was a Dutch type of merchant ship who could take a heavy cargo. The ship was built in 1694 and named after the wife of one of the co-owners. It has had an interesting story, and at one...

sketchfab.com

In sketchfab there is a 3d model of the wreck and she lies almost flat on the seabed with her bow for the biggest part visible.
The bow is still present up to the lower wale and you see she is nearly flat at the bow with sharp corners.


If we look from an angle up front you see the edge around the hull and the sea floor where an nearly equal radius seems to be present.


This confirms to me this square shape is going down towards the lower part of the hull.

The great thing of the 3d models is you can rotate and flip the model and look to the inside of the pictures, the inside of this shell.


If I now fully rotate the model up side down I can clearly see the outline of the hull on the bottom of the seabed. Here I see the sharp angled corners of the hull instead of the softer round shape which you will get when I remove more of the floor for adding the first bilge plank.
In the picture below the dark part is the seabed and the lighter part the hull contour of the ship on the sea floor, which in this case is nearly the floor of the ship.


I will see how this shape further devellops. The PS side will be symmetrical with the new SB side.
Before I will be adding the floors I will first setup a temporary scheerstrook to check if the bow design is acceptable, if not then I will change and fine tune it again.