BALDER, Vlaardingen Herring Lugger from 1912, scratch build scale 1:50 Plate-On-Frame

[Steef66]

I study this indeed. I looked into Steel, Anderson, Lees, Yk, Witsen and blunt. Because I also was interested in the subject. What I found was that it where not big ropes, they didn't have to carry a lot of weight (the sailers in that time doesn't look like me) and a small rope will be keep better in place on a big shroud line. This is wat I found:
Ratlines are in most cases made of 1.5-inch circumference rope (See Lees and Steel). The diameter would be a little less then a half inch. This was for almost every yard in history common use. Ratlines on scale 1/50 to 1/75 will be somewhere between 0,2 and 0,15 mm. in diameter.
On the model it will look better to go for the smallest rope you can find. So 0,15 looks better then 0,2
The distance between ratlines is between 13 and 15 inch (same Lees and Steel). In cm. between 33 and 38 cm. on scale 1/50 to 1/75 between ~7-4 mm.

I hope this answer helps in this case.

 

[Peter Voogt]

I study this indeed. I looked into Steel, Anderson, Lees, Yk, Witsen and blunt. Because I also was interested in the subject. What I found was that it where not big ropes, they didn't have to carry a lot of weight (the sailers in that time doesn't look like me) and a small rope will be keep better in place on a big shroud line. This is wat I found:
Ratlines are in most cases made of 1.5-inch circumference rope (See Lees and Steel). The diameter would be a little less then a half inch. This was for almost every yard in history common use. Ratlines on scale 1/50 to 1/75 will be somewhere between 0,2 and 0,15 mm. in diameter.
On the model it will look better to go for the smallest rope you can find. So 0,15 looks better then 0,2
The distance between ratlines is between 13 and 15 inch (same Lees and Steel). In cm. between 33 and 38 cm. on scale 1/50 to 1/75 between ~7-4 mm.

I hope this answer helps in this case.

View attachment 593513

Thanks for the quick reply, Stephan.
The question related more to the 'international nautical' designation of rope measurements in circumference. Which can cause confusion if the diameter is 'sometimes' mentioned. Do they also refer to 'circumference' in the old Dutch documents?
Regards, Peter

 

[Steef66]

Do they also refer to 'circumference' in the old Dutch documents

In Yk, for example, he sometimes refers to the circumference and sometimes to the diameter. He also mentions the thickness around the round or the thickness at the cross, referring to the circumference in the first case and the diameter in the second.



Witsen is talking about the thickness around (circumference) when he mentioning rope thickness

 

[Peter Voogt]

In Yk, for example, he sometimes refers to the circumference and sometimes to the diameter. He also mentions the thickness around the round or the thickness at the cross, referring to the circumference in the first case and the diameter in the second.

View attachment 593518

Witsen is talking about the thickness around (circumference) when he mentioning rope thickness

View attachment 593521

Thanks, Stephan. In any case, it is clear that they not only state the size number but also whether it is circumference or diameter.
Regards, Peter

 

[RussF]

Thank you Peter and Stephan. I guess there is no real standard way of specifying line. If it is not explicitly spelled out as cir or dia in the text, you just have to use your common sense and realize that they would never use, for example, 1.5" diameter line for ratlines.

As a side note, the photo that Stephan posted above has answered some questions I had about ratlines - thank you Stephan. I had always wondered what was done with the free end of the ratline at the outermost shroud and how they kept the inner clove hitches from sliding down the shroud with the weight of the sailor. I see from the photo that the free ends are pulled up and seized to the shroud and that there are seizings on each innermost shroud just below the hitch to keep it from sliding. So, for those of you who REALLY want to model to true scale ...

 

[Steef66]

I had always wondered what was done with the free end of the ratline at the outermost shroud and how they kept the inner clove hitches from sliding down the shroud with the weight of the sailor.

Now you gonna hate me



The first picture was the Dutch method, and above picture the English and French method with an eye on the end of the ratline.

 

[Peter Voogt]

Thank you Peter and Stephan. I guess there is no real standard way of specifying line. If it is not explicitly spelled out as cir or dia in the text, you just have to use your common sense and realize that they would never use, for example, 1.5" diameter line for ratlines.

As a side note, the photo that Stephan posted above has answered some questions I had about ratlines - thank you Stephan. I had always wondered what was done with the free end of the ratline at the outermost shroud and how they kept the inner clove hitches from sliding down the shroud with the weight of the sailor. I see from the photo that the free ends are pulled up and seized to the shroud and that there are seizings on each innermost shroud just below the hitch to keep it from sliding. So, for those of you who REALLY want to model to true scale ...

And on the Bluenose and Balder they used the same methode as Stephan posted above:

The drawing is about the Bluenose and the insert picture is from the Balder.
It's depending of the scale you are building is this is possible to make.
But Johann @archjofo showed it here in --> this post of his build of La Créole in1:48. <--
Regards, Peter

 

[RussF]

Now you gonna hate me

View attachment 593588

The first picture was the Dutch method, and above picture the English and French method with an eye on the end of the ratline.

Eye-splicing 0,15mm line? Piece of cake! The hard part will be finding the correct scale size for the small stuff used to lash the splice to the shroud!

Seriously Stephan, thanks for posting these - and thanks Peter for indulging us on your log.

 

[Peter Voogt]

The starboard side done as well:

That took a bit more time. It does need to be at the same height and alignment as the port side.

Total picture so far:

The starboard rigging is not yet divisible. When attaching the ratlines and spreader bars, I am going to integrate the small magnets. At least ..... that is the idea.
Regards, Peter

 

[Marquinius]

She’s coming along pretty fine. And I don’t think everybody appreciates how small the model actually is. From all te details I’d made a mind picture of something table sized. And was surprised when I saw her ‘live’ in Amsterdam.

 

[GrantTyler]

She’s coming along pretty fine. And I don’t think everybody appreciates how small the model actually is. From all te details I’d made a mind picture of something table sized. And was surprised when I saw her ‘live’ in Amsterdam.

I agree. How Peter manages such fine detail at this scale is legendary. Cheers Grant

 

[Peter Voogt]

She’s coming along pretty fine. And I don’t think everybody appreciates how small the model actually is. From all te details I’d made a mind picture of something table sized. And was surprised when I saw her ‘live’ in Amsterdam.

I agree. How Peter manages such fine detail at this scale is legendary. Cheers Grant

Thanks for the compliment, Marco and Grant. But ........Size and dimensions are actually very relative.
A critically positive member of the Dutch forum found the distance between the deadeyes on my model quite large. When looking at the drawings and on the Balder itself, I also found the distance to be large. But that is the case with many sailing loggers.
Both shrouds on the Balder:

The distance between the deadeyes is 75 cm / 2.5". That is 15 mm / 0,59" on my model:

They will be positioned slightly closer together once they are tensioned with the lanyards.

Let me mention two points of interest that you can see on the pictures of the Balder:
1: The large amount of line looped in long loops along the lanyards. I can understand that for the main mast, because when lowering the mast while fishing, the lanyards must be released. For the mizzen mast, I do not understand it (yet). That simply remains fixed in place. I asked various 'experts' but have not yet received a satisfactory answer. Perhaps to have enough length when tensioning the lanyards by hand.
2: The ratlines lines that have also been fitted between the lanyards. Quite handy, as became apparent last week when I had to climb up there. Then that 75 cm (and the section below) is quite a big step. At the mizzenmast, those ratlines are no problem because that stays standing. But again the mainmast. When it is lowered, the halyards are released by the deadeyes. Then those ratlines have to be taken off. And on the real fishing vessel ..... every time e when fishing .... again and again ....... I suppose the current crew members will say: "We never lower the mast. If we have to, we'll just untie them."
Regards, Peter

 

[Peter Voogt]

Last week, on the original Balder in beautiful weather, I sanded the 'kluis’ and applied primer. Little by little, it is becoming presentable again.

No update on my Balder for a while, as I am away for another week on my bike with former colleagues. Heading to Germany. Today, first part of the Moselle and then across the Rhine on a ferry.

Still 4 days to go.
Regards, Peter

 

[Peter Voogt]

Poor care en route:

Regards, Peter