Clipper Ship Build Thoughts

I'm going to have to replace all the capstans. The ones I ended up using are too large. I'll see what I can fabricate or modify.
All of your calculations should prove most useful to Williams M. and R. I know William M. has started carving his hull but hopefully hasn't begun drilling holes for the masts until he gets to see your calculations. Reducing the size of my capstans should solve a lot of scale and crowding issues. I hope any other would be Flying Cloud crafters get to consult your calculations before diving in. None of the existing plans are trustworthy.
 
Last edited:
At this point my aim is to have a model that is believable and not rife with glaring errors. It looks like my struggles have at least provided an impetus to correct a lot of the existing misinformation and provide future modelers of this ship with a clean slate and enough good information to build something approaching the reality of McKay's most legendary clipper.
 
Why not widen your search. Possiblr the most beautiful clippers ever built were the composite clippers buillt on the Clyde and at Aberdeen. Take a look at Ariel, Thermopylae or Titiana and study MscGreggor's book The Trea Clippers. The Cutty Sark is now so well known and over modelled that you should not build her but she does look good - see the attached file.

View attachment 462628
Bonetta,
That is a beautiful model of the "Wee Bonnie" Scottish, Clyde built Tea Clipper Cutty Sark.
 
Hello everyone,

I have been looking at the Flying Cloud plans by Scott Bradner to determine the placement of the naval hood with respect to the hawse hole and the planksheer.
I have a copy of a manuscript written by Bruce M. Lane that was supplied by Scott Bradner which states the following:

The Currier lithograph locates the center of the hawse hole (only one on the starboard side) slightly less than its own diameter down from the planksheer and one and one-half the diameter forward of a vertical line drawn from the load-water-line.

Looking at the Bradner drawing, there appears to me to be a discrepancy in the information as to the placement of the hawse hole with regard to the planksheer. This placement also leaves no room for a naval hood. Does anyone have any thoughts on this information? I have included a picture of the from the Bradner plans below.


Thanks, Bill

View attachment 464616
Bill-R:
Since Scott Bradner hasn't adapted the now proven navel* hoods or cutwater, his beautifully drawn illustration isn't accurate. *(Duncan McLean uses navel and not naval for a reason probably lost to history). As a result of this critical omission, his hawse hole placement is way too high. Rob helped me understand another external dimension too. The sheerline molding is mounted to the waterway mounted to the interior bulkhead. That component is 12" square. Since it's inset on the beams supporting the main deck, it's 3 & 1/2 inches shy of a foot. So the exterior sheerline is 8 & 1/2" shorter than 5'. That makes the maximum distance between the sheerline molding and the upper mainrail molding 4' 3 & 1/2". Since it makes no sense to mount the rail at the top, I'd say it's safe to round this down to 4' even. This 1' actually makes a small difference on the exterior molding which then brings up the navel hood. On Glory of the Seas the sheerline molding continues the upper navel hood molding line. The navel hood is a little smaller than the 4' distance above, and the proper location of the hawse hole is directly below. Meanwhile, the cutwater which curves up in a lovely graceful arc is just a little smaller than the navel hood above it. Her trumpet bearing winged angel has her feet mounted on the outer edge of the cutwater and is then attached to the navel hoods which sandwich the cutwater between them with a large iron rod. I've seen this bar in person on the lovely Grecian goddess Athene and it's substantial. This is the unique McKay bow. And it is s far more substantial prow than ordinary clipper ships had.
 
I'm going to have to replace all the capstans. The ones I ended up using are too large. I'll see what I can fabricate or modify.
All of your calculations should prove most useful to Williams M. and R. I know William M. has started carving his hull but hopefully hasn't begun drilling holes for the masts until he gets to see your calculations. Reducing the size of my capstans should solve a lot of scale and crowding issues. I hope any other would be Flying Cloud crafters get to consult your calculations before diving in. None of the existing plans are trustworthy.
Peter,
I applaud your efforts to continually focus on getting your modified Mamoli Flying Cloud replica as accurate as possible. Unfortunately, commercial fabricators don't seem to focus as intensely on important details as we amateurs do. Outsized capstans will ruin the overall impression of your attempts to create an authentic replica. As Rob and I are now learning by ever so carefully evaluating specific details, even our pre-conceived notions can impede on our efforts to be as faithful to the authentic McKay vessel as possible. I originally felt that the bulkhead height of Stag Hound was going to be at the monkey rail height. That's in direct contradiction to McLean's statement that the focsle deck height is at the 5' mainrail height. So, rethinking this, we're now pretty sure her focsle crew quarters were 3' below and her 5' focstle bulkheads would be closed, solid with elegant cabinet molding, with twin port and starboard companions. Since Flying Cloud has a similar description as the later Flying Fish it's logical to believe she had a similar arrangement. McKay's clippers all had 7' or higher 'tween decks, why then would he stuff his crew into ridiculously small spaces? From a modeler's viewpoint, this development makes your job simpler. There's no windlass to model if it was 3' below in an enclosed space. I will continue discussing these new developments with Rob to see if he concurs and will update you guys here.
 
Well, I built in the windlass and accompanying bitts (according to the plans) with the forecastle deck at the higher level. I followed one of the drawings in the Crother book, but I don't know that it was specifically Flying Cloud. Some of this stuff I'll just have to live with. Otherwise, I'd just have to throw the whole thing in the bin. But I think I've made it clear that this is more of an aesthetic venture than a documentary one. At least that's the corner I've painted myself into. But the current capstans have to go. They are too egregiously wrong and are fortunately just glued on with isopropyl alcohol soluble white glue. So,a little patience and it's back to the drawing board, and perhaps the lathe, if I can't find anything worth modifying.:confused:
My mantra seems to be "It doesn't have to be perfect. Just believable and fun to look at." ;)
Maybe the two Williams will come closer to the three-dimensional documents.
However, the closer you get, the more diverse the choices and indistinct the outlines seem to become.
In the David Shaw book, he describes the windlasses being used to get the ship from the pier into the anchorage in the river. and, I imagine, the reverse as well.
 
Last edited:
I have a copy of the Historical American Merchant Marine Survey... I posted some pix of it on another forum a few years back... HAMMS... Tons of ships lines and many with enough plans and drawings that a detailed model could be built, POF or POB... Clippers, schooners, coastal boats, river boats, sail boats, row boats, fishing boats, tugs, steam, sail, ocean, great lakes ... It surprises me that more folks don't troll the survey (the Smithsonian has the originals) for scratch builds that have never or infrequently been built...
 
Last edited:
Well, I built in the windlass and accompanying bitts (according to the plans) with the forecastle deck at the higher level. I followed one of the drawings in the Crother book, but I don't know that it was specifically Flying Cloud. Some of this stuff I'll just have to live with. Otherwise, I'd just have to throw the whole thing in the bin. But I think I've made it clear that this is more of an aesthetic venture than a documentary one. At least that's the corner I've painted myself into. But the current capstans have to go. They are too egregiously wrong and are fortunately just glued on with isopropyl alcohol soluble white glue. So,a little patience and it's back to the drawing board, and perhaps the lathe, if I can't find anything worth modifying.:confused:
My mantra seems to be "It doesn't have to be perfect. Just believable and fun to look at." ;)
Maybe the two Williams will come closer to the three-dimensional documents.
However, the closer you get, the more diverse the choices and indistinct the outlines seem to become.
In the David Shaw book, he describes the windlasses being used to get the ship from the pier into the anchorage in the river. and, I imagine, the reverse as well.
Peter,
I don't want to give you Modeler's whiplash. I just wanted to clarify facts as we uncover them to aid you and others wanting to create beautiful clipper models. Here's what leads me to suspect that Flying Cloud had a similar 3' lower focstle layout as her previous sister ship Stag Hound. In the case of Stag Hound McLean clearly states her focstle deck height is at the 5' main rail. That's too cramped to comfortably accomodate crew. So that implies she had a 3' drop to man a heavier, patented all metal geared windlass and provide crew quarters too. Here's the brief McLean write-up of the Flying Cloud focstle. "She has a topgallant forecastle 30 feet long amidships, fitted for the accommodation of one watch of her crew, and in its after wings are two water closets." This is very similar to the description of McKay's fourth clipper Flying Fish which we know for a fact had a 3' drop to crew quarters below. She had twin port and starboard companions, before them were water closets. Not after them, as incorrectly portrayed on all Flying Fish model kits. Main rail height in this vessel was 4 & 1/2 feet. Not nearly high enough for useful water closets, or to work a windlass, so the only logical place left is 3 feet below. Which brings me back to the terse description of the focsle set up on Flying Cloud. Fitted for the acommodation of one watch of the crew. Similar to Stag Hound and Flying Fish it now seems most likely that Flying Cloud also quite likely had her windlass with crew quarters 3' below. Admittedly, it's pure subjective conjecture but it fits all details of the brief description. I'm still looking for Rob's input to confirm this new evaluation.
 
Do any of the resources, like Crothers, picture this arrangement? Or will you be making a profile section drawing to refer to? I just can't visualize it and it would be useful for future modelers to have the visual reference. No pressure, just a few more hours extra work... ;)
It's already too late to change mine. :rolleyes:

Pete
 
Do any of the resources, like Crothers, picture this arrangement? Or will you be making a profile section drawing to refer to? I just can't visualize it and it would be useful for future modelers to have the visual reference. No pressure, just a few more hours extra work... ;)
It's already too late to change mine. :rolleyes:

Pete
Peter,
No problem. I'm already working on this issue for our Stag Hound build. In certain ways, Duncan McLean's detailed descriptions make it seem like you could reconstruct the entire ship if you wanted. Other times, accurate information is maddeningly scarce. I've been piecing together information from various sources just to get this far. I'll do a quick sketch and share it here. One thing I know for sure. All those Flying Fish builds with stand alone outhouses don't match at all what McLean's description says!
 
Your efforts to flesh out the historic record with well supported and researched conclusions are much appreciated. They will, no doubt, contribute to peoples' efforts to build better, more historically accurate models, just as they have mine. Despite any corners I may have painted myself into, your revelations and recommendations have helped (and continue to help) me create a much better model than I could have anticipated. You also have been an encouragement to me to be unafraid or hesitant to make difficult changes and reversals in an effort to incorporate those revelations into my build, much (IMHO) to my models' benefit. Thumbsup

Thanks, Pete
 
Your efforts to flesh out the historic record with well supported and researched conclusions are much appreciated. They will, no doubt, contribute to peoples' efforts to build better, more historically accurate models, just as they have mine. Despite any corners I may have painted myself into, your revelations and recommendations have helped (and continue to help) me create a much better model than I could have anticipated. You also have been an encouragement to me to be unafraid or hesitant to make difficult changes and reversals in an effort to incorporate those revelations into my build, much (IMHO) to my models' benefit. Thumbsup

Thanks, Pete
Pete,
Thanks for your kind words. The more we delve into actual facts as clearly laid out by Duncan McLean, the more it appears that unfortunately commercial plans are simply rife with glaring errors. At first, I thought it was just the most eggregious absence of navel hoods and cutwaters, which are so clear to Rob and I now that we see the durability and rugged strength this arrangement provides. At one point in her 50+ year career, Glory of the Seas was struck in her bow by a steam ship backing up. Just like McLean so astutely observed about the durable prow of Flying Cloud, April 1851, such an occurrence barely damaged the venerable McKay clipper! That's definitely when her starboard splash rail cracked and most likely what led to loss of her beautiful cutwater carvings. But the ship herself remained intact and more impressively, none of her bow conponents suffered any damage at all! So this last clipper confirms that McKay was consistent in this structural design from his first to last clipper. The sole exception being Great Republic his only 4 decker vessel.
But now we're uncovering other errors. Take for example these confusing focstle crew accommodations and deck heights. I've said I love the gorgeous Boucher Flying Cloud models, especially those incredibly lifelike billowing sails. Clearly, these were true labors of love crafted by highly talented professional artisans. Still, her bare stem bow just isn't right or historically accurate to the actual ship herself. Now, I see the windlass is stuffed into a space that nobody but midgets could service. It defies common sense. But there is a more practical solution. Place the windlass 3' below where there's sufficient workspace. It gives added benefit of lowering the center of gravity for a weighty windlass and heavy anchor chains. Now, such a practical arrangement makes sense. As I think about it, this definitely sounds like the set up for both Stag Hound and Flying Cloud. Because, like McKay's 4th clipper Flying Fish, with her low 4 & 1/2' high focstle deck Flying Cloud also was set up for the accommodation of one watch of the crew,. So, while not specifically mentioned, it certainly looks like her focstle deck was mounted at 5'.
We work to follow details as described by McLean, not to place deck structures haphazardly just to fill space. As Rob, Vladimir and I delve further into reconstructing Donald McKay's impressively beautiful clipper ships we keep unveiling previously overlooked tiny details. One such instance was a 2' aft rake of the sternpost on Stag Hound. Now a perplexing conundrum as to how the heck did McKay stuff a tiny portico entrance 5' behind the mizzen mast gets easily solved. Because, thanks to that ignored 2' aft rake, the real distance is revealed as 7 feet!
It's more challenging because we're not satisfied to just build models that might look good. We want them to make sense too. Our small group has this as our "North Star." We are determined to maintain fealty to the most accurate reproduction of Donald McKay's ships we can. We base this upon the best documentation we can discover. This is not to slight in any way, the impressive craftsman talents of folks like yourself. You are investing so much time and energy to create beautiful models. I believe, given sufficiently accurate information, it's just as easy to create a beautiful and accurate model than one based on erroneous plans
 
I talked with Nic at Bluejacket Shipcrafter’s and he said they still sell the plans for the Flying Cloud. The plans are three sheets.

Bill
Bill-R:
From reading Scott Bradner's really well researched site, it appears that the 1974 Bluejacket plans are based on earlier 1928 Boucher ones, which build into this spectacular large model from 1914. This view of her at Phillip's Academy is my favorite. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of mistakes. Her lovely bow is just the stem. She's missing her navel hoods, cutwater and her angel has no proper place to mount to. Further back, as her focstle deck is mounted 5 feet high on the line of the main rail, there's no room to fit underneath to do even routine maintenance on her windlass. Try to imagine being a full-sized sailor to work in that. According to McLean, this area was set up as accommodation for one watch of her crew. It's more sensible to have solid bulkheads with twin port and starboard companions opening to steps down 3' below to where the windlass would be in an 8' room. McLean describes this area as well lit, ventilated and airy. That implies there might have been windows, deck prisms, maybe even a skylight in the focstle. I'm still evaluating this with Rob for our Stag Hound project. Of one thing I'm sure. Nobody would ever describe the cramped space underneath her current topgallant forecastle as spacious.
Peter is perplexed with the impossible position of the "booby hatch" companion which appears to interfere with men working the capstan directly in front of it. There's only a 10' difference in the 215' main deck of Stag Hound and the 225' of Flying Cloud. I used known mast distances of the former to deduce those of the latter. They're on Peter's build for reference. It turned out there's 35' aft of the main mast to the poop deck foreward bulkhead. There's plenty of room to fit these deck fittings when properly spaced. The rear poop deck house also doesn't match McLean's description of a small portico, which was really just an entrance to another 3' stairway drop to apartments below. We've determined the one on Stag Hound was 8' square. Chances are the one on Flying Cloud might have been about 10' square at most. It's purely conjectural but since risk of a fall from over 8' from the roof of the Stag Hound portico can result in serious injuries, we added a rail around the top. It makes sense that the one on Flying Cloud would have had the same.
Both Boucher models are some of the most impressive Flying Cloud builds ever done. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. I would be remiss if I didn't also point out that, while it's a nice contrast, the ship herself had a pure black hull. Her splashrail wouldn't have been white. Her poop deck rails were probably white but her turned rail stanchions may have been natural wood.
My goal is not to denigrate beautiful craftsmanship of others. It's to finally see the true genius of Donald McKay's impressive clipper ships fully realized in all their authentic true glory.

ZYYJHAFUGUI6HIH24JSBPXX4AY.jpg

20240824_060605.jpg

Screenshot_20240824-060419_Adobe Acrobat.jpg

20240824_060947.jpg

20240824_060827.jpg

20240818_094204.jpg

20240818_094044.jpg

20240818_093438.jpg
 
Last edited:
Great set of pictures.
Thanks! As an artist, it helps me to visualize the relationships of structures to each other. That's how I figured out the navel hoods and cutwaters. It's also how that small 2' aft rake on the stern of Stag Hound made it possible to finally figure out the mystery of the small square portico too.
 
Great set of pictures.
Thanks! As an artist, I find it easier to visualize relationships of items to each other through the aid of images. For instance, it appears like the foremast on the plans is a little too far back. That then affects the other mast positions too. From the ratios I got, the foremast center should be 52' aft of the stem at the main deck level. In the beautiful blue 1928 plans it looks like it's closer to 60'. I remember the mainmast center ratio was 70'. Even if that's accurate, it's still 8' further back. Even the mizzenmast appears to be less than 44' from the sternpost. To be fair, I'd have to print out the plans and actually measure them. However, if you just look at them, it's apparent the foremast is almost 10' further back than it should. It's 52' back but instead of following the main deck location, further forward to get to the stem, the distance was measured along the waterline, also further back. Now distance from mainmast to rear poop deck bulkhead is closer to 25'. Meanwhile the mizzenmast is under 40' to sternpost. That's how it appears,, just by counting the 10' breaks in the 1928 blueprints. These discrepencies are why your deck furniture can't fit properly.
 
Last edited:
Bill,

I got in trouble on another forum with this advice but I’m either a slow learner, stubborn, or both, so here goes.

If you want to build a Clipper Ship, don’t let your perceived intexperience stand in your way. Build one!

The usual advice is to start with a “beginner kit” to develop skills before tackling something more complex. Life is, however, short and a Clipper is a long term project so why waste time first building a subject that doesn’t interest you. With Ed Tosti’s books you also have an excellent set of instructions written by a master builder. Even if you do decide to build something other than Young America, his technique still apply.

I don’t know how you’re outfitted for tools, but this could be a limitation particularly for milling wood. Amortized over the life of building a model, tools are a good investment. I’m still using tools that are well over 50 years old.

Roger
I love the advice given in Mondfeld's book Historic Ship Models in which he tackles the same question. He states in part, that the ship you build first should be a ship that interests you. I have seen many outstanding Ships-of-the Line, Frigates, Clippers, that were first builds for women. Indeed, they have posted on various sites. It is a fact that most uncompleted models are those of ships or boats that never really interested the builder. I therefore have never advocated building simple kits as a start. I have never regretted that approach.

Bill
 
I'm going to have to replace all the capstans. The ones I ended up using are too large. I'll see what I can fabricate or modify.
All of your calculations should prove most useful to Williams M. and R. I know William M. has started carving his hull but hopefully hasn't begun drilling holes for the masts until he gets to see your calculations. Reducing the size of my capstans should solve a lot of scale and crowding issues. I hope any other would be Flying Cloud crafters get to consult your calculations before diving in. None of the existing plans are trustworthy.
I am most interested in any information that you can share! While I have faith in my modelling skills, I can never know too much.

Bill
 
Back
Top