"Flying Cloud " by Mamoli - kit bash

[Peter Gutterman]

Progress this week. Still doing the scratch/bashing model building two-step (two forward-One back). I am including a profile which I've posted before as an example of what not to do. I looked at a number of Flying Cloud models and picked the look I liked best, which had the white upper works. Then with the actual description as quoted here by Rich (a.k.a. ClipperFan) I realize now this was somebody's fantasy, who, like me, hadn't dug deep enough into the historic record. She was all black, save for the spray rail which is portrayed as white in paintings. (Besides, I like it that way.) I tried painting the upper works black starting behind the deadeyes and realized it was a fool's errand. So white it remains. All you Flying Cloud fans out there, forewarned is forearmed, she's all black, save for the spray rail.

After some fits and starts, I decided to do the coach house facade as per the BlueJacket plans that have the virtue of being drawn to scale. Pictures of progress thus far. Windows to come and I may Gussie it up with some decorative panels as it isn't proving too difficult, even at the tiny size. I split up some Mahogany strip with a Sharp broad chisel for the doors which worked a treat.
Maybe I should make the pictures of my feet my avatar.

 

[WilliamM]

Progress this week. Still doing the scratch/bashing model building two-step (two forward-One back). I am including a profile which I've posted before as an example of what not to do. I looked at a number of Flying Cloud models and picked the look I liked best, which had the white upper works. Then with the actual description as quoted here by Rich (a.k.a. ClipperFan) I realize now this was somebody's fantasy, who, like me, hadn't dug deep enough into the historic record. She was all black, save for the spray rail which is portrayed as white in paintings. (Besides, I like it that way.) I tried painting the upper works black starting behind the deadeyes and realized it was a fool's errand. So white it remains. All you Flying Cloud fans out there, forewarned is forearmed, she's all black, save for the spray rail.

After some fits and starts, I decided to do the coach house facade as per the BlueJacket plans that have the virtue of being drawn to scale. Pictures of progress thus far. Windows to come and I may Gussie it up with some decorative panels as it isn't proving too difficult, even at the tiny size. I split up some Mahogany strip with a Sharp broad chisel for the doors which worked a treat.
Maybe I should make the pictures of my feet my avatar.
View attachment 458854View attachment 458855View attachment 458857View attachment 458859View attachment 458860View attachment 458862View attachment 458864View attachment 458866View attachment 458867

She's beautiful so far!!! You are clearly overcoming the difficulties found in Mamoli's kits. I am really impressed.

Bill

 

[BMT]

Pete,

Coming along and I’m liking the detail.

I like the concept of your feet being your avatar, kind of like a hobbit.

BMT

 

[Peter Gutterman]

She's beautiful so far!!! You are clearly overcoming the difficulties found in Mamoli's kits. I am really impressed.

Bill

Thanks Bill.

 

[ClipperFan]

Peter,
I didn't have the heart to tell you about the true outer hull of Flying Cloud being all black, including her uppermost splash rail. In sharing this, it's not meant as criticism but to share these facts for other modelers. We also learned these facts from Michael Mjelde who's been intensely researching Glory of the Seas since 1957 (I was 5 years old then). Captains personalized ship structures like the houses, some preferred white, others wooden appearance but none ever changed the black outer hull. In fact, in his description of McKay's fourth Clipper Flying Fish Duncan McLean wryly observed that like clergy, clipper ships wore black exteriors. Here are some other interesting items we've learned. McKay's vessel houses were more ornate, with larger usually arched windows and sliding paneled doors. Fairleads on the forecastle were actually cut-outs lined with metal to minimize line chafing and not with British style metal ones mounted above. Height of the forecastle deck was 6 ft, mounted on the top of the monkey rail, with vertically paneled bulkheads supporting it. There was an inner gracefully curved bow, almost like a waterline at the base of the 18" splashrail. Here's sketches of the front facade on the Glory of the Seas rear coach house. First is by Michael Mjelde, second is my sketch of the same subject. Third is the ornate prow of.Glory of the Seas. Note: her three fairleads are cut-outs with nothing attached above. Flying Cloud had equally as ornate panels on her houses as well. Here are some very rare contemporary photos for confirmation. The view of Glory's deck looking forward shows how cluttered these working vessels really were. Left bulkhead which supports the forecastle, has three elegant vertical cabinet type gothic panels. Next three scenes are beached in Endolyne, sadly waiting for her fiery end. As the image is enlarged, the inner arrangement of a McKay forecastle sprayrail is revealed. Cast shadows show there's an inner floor shelf that surrounds the entire deck. At the prow there's a graceful pointed curve which originally held belaying pins. Disregatd the clumsy wooden fence at the aft end of the forecastle deck. When she became a floating salmon processing factory, substantial modifications were done to her. The 1877 view from her stern looking forward is her original appearance. Then, the aft end of the forecastle was open, only protected by iron stanchions and wire slung between them. They're tough to see but they are in the photo. One other item Michael schooled us on was that McKay used old fashioned rectangular wooden bollards, not iron ones. When Rob was sceptical, Michael sent us a photo of a sailor on board, standing behind one. They were two large vertical posts, about 2 ft x 4 ft high pairs attached by a base arm of the same dimensions.

 

[WilliamM]

Peter,
I didn't have the heart to tell you about the true outer hull of Flying Cloud being all black, including her uppermost splash rail. In sharing this, it's not meant as criticism but to share these facts for other modelers. We also learned these facts from Michael Mjelde who's been intensely researching Glory of the Seas since 1957 (I was 5 years old then). Captains personalized ship structures like the houses, some preferred white, others wooden appearance but none ever changed the black outer hull. In fact, in his description of McKay's fourth Clipper Flying Fish Duncan McLean wryly observed that like clergy, clipper ships wore black exteriors. Here are some other interesting items we've learned. McKay's vessel houses were more ornate, with larger usually arched windows and sliding paneled doors. Fairleads on the forecastle were actually cut-outs lined with metal to minimize line chafing and not with British style metal ones mounted above. Height of the forecastle deck was 6 ft, mounted on the top of the monkey rail, with vertically paneled bulkheads supporting it. There was an inner gracefully curved bow, almost like a waterline at the base of the 18" splashrail. Here's sketches of the front facade on the Glory of the Seas rear coach house. First is by Michael Mjelde, second is my sketch of the same subject. Third is the ornate prow of.Glory of the Seas. Note: her three fairleads are cut-outs with nothing attached above. Flying Cloud had equally as ornate panels on her houses as well. Here are some very rare contemporary photos for confirmation. The view of Glory's deck looking forward shows how cluttered these working vessels really were. Left bulkhead which supports the forecastle, has three elegant vertical cabinet type gothic panels. Next three scenes are beached in Endolyne, sadly waiting for her fiery end. As the image is enlarged, the inner arrangement of a McKay forecastle sprayrail is revealed. Cast shadows show there's an inner floor shelf that surrounds the entire deck. At the prow there's a graceful pointed curve which originally held belaying pins. Disregatd the clumsy wooden fence at the aft end of the forecastle deck. When she became a floating salmon processing factory, substantial modifications were done to her. The 1877 view from her stern looking forward is her original appearance. Then, the aft end of the forecastle was open, only protected by iron stanchions and wire slung between them. They're tough to see but they are in the photo. One other item Michael schooled us on was that McKay used old fashioned rectangular wooden bollards, not iron ones. When Rob was sceptical, Michael sent us a photo of a sailor on board, standing behind one. They were two large vertical posts, about 2 ft x 4 ft high pairs attached by a base arm of the same dimensions.

View attachment 458939

View attachment 458941

View attachment 458942

View attachment 458966

View attachment 458968

View attachment 458969

View attachment 458970

View attachment 458971

Thanks! I love the pictorial.

I was modifying the old Revell CSS Alabama that was horribly incorrect from the company, one thing that I discovered was those previous builders and Revell had all painted white the wales and the top of the outer hull above the top wale. It was incorrect to say the least! Also, the pivot guns pointed opposite their real positions. The guns were also all incorrect, being those of the Federal Navy. The rails were incorrectly positioned. In other words, I took this old plastic model and turned it into a masterpiece.

I will admit to being a little surprised in the photo of the crewman. Look at the position of the eyebolt just past his left shoe. Do you see how it is tilted? That requires real consideration about their placement on my models. That is a research goldmine!

Bill

 

[ClipperFan]

Thanks! I love the pictorial.

I was modifying the old Revell CSS Alabama that was horribly incorrect from the company, one thing that I discovered was those previous builders and Revell had all painted white the wales and the top of the outer hull above the top wale. It was incorrect to say the least! Also, the pivot guns pointed opposite their real positions. The guns were also all incorrect, being those of the Federal Navy. The rails were incorrectly positioned. In other words, I took this old plastic model and turned it into a masterpiece.

I will admit to being a little surprised in the photo of the crewman. Look at the position of the eyebolt just past his left shoe. Do you see how it is tilted? That requires real consideration about their placement on my models. That is a research goldmine!

Bill

Bill, it's still amazing what gems can be unveiled by these priceless images. I'm glad you enjoyed these series of pictures. For more historic Glory of the Seas images go to Rob Wiederrich's model build on Model Ship World. Nautical Research Journal, Winter 2023 also has my first article on the in-depth 2 year reconstruction we did on McKay's last clipper ship. I'm just about ready to submit a second on the same topic, covering completion of Rob and Vladimir's large models. I feel like the work we did on this project finally unveils a lot of McKay secrets which really apply to almost all of his other clipper ships.

About the best gift we kids received from Revell wasn't necessarily the neat sailing ship models we built (which we now realize were no where nearly as accurate as we first thought) but it instilled in us a lifelong love of these spectacular vessels themselves. The CSS Alabama repeated a modeling trick of theirs, rebadging one ship for another. USS Kearsarge gets a redo as CSS Alabama, USS Constitution is redressed as USS United States while Tea Clipper Thermopylae is a redress of Tea Clipper Cutty Sark. Meanwhile McKay clipper Flying Cloud  becomes Stag Hound! Sigh...
but at least we also got some incredibly beautiful box top artwork from the inimitable John Steel. By the way, if you still have your masterpiece, I'd like to see pictures of her.

 

[WilliamM]

Bill, it's still amazing what gems can be unveiled by these priceless images. I'm glad you enjoyed these series of pictures. For more historic Glory of the Seas images go to Rob Wiederrich's model build on Model Ship World. Nautical Research Journal, Winter 2023 also has my first article on the in-depth 2 year reconstruction we did on McKay's last clipper ship. I'm just about ready to submit a second on the same topic, covering completion of Rob and Vladimir's large models. I feel like the work we did on this project finally unveils a lot of McKay secrets which really apply to almost all of his other clipper ships.

About the best gift we kids received from Revell wasn't necessarily the neat sailing ship models we built (which we now realize were no where nearly as accurate as we first thought) but it instilled in us a lifelong love of these spectacular vessels themselves. The CSS Alabama repeated a modeling trick of theirs, rebadging one ship for another. USS Kearsarge gets a redo as CSS Alabama, USS Constitution is redressed as USS United States while Tea Clipper Thermopylae is a redress of Tea Clipper Cutty Sark. Meanwhile McKay clipper Flying Cloud  becomes Stag Hound! Sigh...
but at least we also got some incredibly beautiful box top artwork from the inimitable John Steel. By the way, if you still have your masterpiece, I'd like to see pictures of her.

Don't forget their redo of HMAV Bounty into HMS Beagle! The real ships in question bore no resemblance to each other. We also need to be careful with some of the PoB ships for the same reason.

Bill

 

[Peter Gutterman]

Peter,
I didn't have the heart to tell you about the true outer hull of Flying Cloud being all black, including her uppermost splash rail. In sharing this, it's not meant as criticism but to share these facts for other modelers. We also learned these facts from Michael Mjelde who's been intensely researching Glory of the Seas since 1957 (I was 5 years old then). Captains personalized ship structures like the houses, some preferred white, others wooden appearance but none ever changed the black outer hull. In fact, in his description of McKay's fourth Clipper Flying Fish Duncan McLean wryly observed that like clergy, clipper ships wore black exteriors. Here are some other interesting items we've learned. McKay's vessel houses were more ornate, with larger usually arched windows and sliding paneled doors. Fairleads on the forecastle were actually cut-outs lined with metal to minimize line chafing and not with British style metal ones mounted above. Height of the forecastle deck was 6 ft, mounted on the top of the monkey rail, with vertically paneled bulkheads supporting it. There was an inner gracefully curved bow, almost like a waterline at the base of the 18" splashrail. Here's sketches of the front facade on the Glory of the Seas rear coach house. First is by Michael Mjelde, second is my sketch of the same subject. Third is the ornate prow of.Glory of the Seas. Note: her three fairleads are cut-outs with nothing attached above. Flying Cloud had equally as ornate panels on her houses as well. Here are some very rare contemporary photos for confirmation. The view of Glory's deck looking forward shows how cluttered these working vessels really were. Left bulkhead which supports the forecastle, has three elegant vertical cabinet type gothic panels. Next three scenes are beached in Endolyne, sadly waiting for her fiery end. As the image is enlarged, the inner arrangement of a McKay forecastle sprayrail is revealed. Cast shadows show there's an inner floor shelf that surrounds the entire deck. At the prow there's a graceful pointed curve which originally held belaying pins. Disregatd the clumsy wooden fence at the aft end of the forecastle deck. When she became a floating salmon processing factory, substantial modifications were done to her. The 1877 view from her stern looking forward is her original appearance. Then, the aft end of the forecastle was open, only protected by iron stanchions and wire slung between them. They're tough to see but they are in the photo. One other item Michael schooled us on was that McKay used old fashioned rectangular wooden bollards, not iron ones. When Rob was sceptical, Michael sent us a photo of a sailor on board, standing behind one. They were two large vertical posts, about 2 ft x 4 ft high pairs attached by a base arm of the same dimensions.

View attachment 458939

View attachment 458941

View attachment 458942

View attachment 458966

View attachment 458968

View attachment 458969

View attachment 458970

View attachment 458971

 

[Peter Gutterman]

Peter,
I didn't have the heart to tell you about the true outer hull of Flying Cloud being all black, including her uppermost splash rail. In sharing this, it's not meant as criticism but to share these facts for other modelers. We also learned these facts from Michael Mjelde who's been intensely researching Glory of the Seas since 1957 (I was 5 years old then). Captains personalized ship structures like the houses, some preferred white, others wooden appearance but none ever changed the black outer hull. In fact, in his description of McKay's fourth Clipper Flying Fish Duncan McLean wryly observed that like clergy, clipper ships wore black exteriors. Here are some other interesting items we've learned. McKay's vessel houses were more ornate, with larger usually arched windows and sliding paneled doors. Fairleads on the forecastle were actually cut-outs lined with metal to minimize line chafing and not with British style metal ones mounted above. Height of the forecastle deck was 6 ft, mounted on the top of the monkey rail, with vertically paneled bulkheads supporting it. There was an inner gracefully curved bow, almost like a waterline at the base of the 18" splashrail. Here's sketches of the front facade on the Glory of the Seas rear coach house. First is by Michael Mjelde, second is my sketch of the same subject. Third is the ornate prow of.Glory of the Seas. Note: her three fairleads are cut-outs with nothing attached above. Flying Cloud had equally as ornate panels on her houses as well. Here are some very rare contemporary photos for confirmation. The view of Glory's deck looking forward shows how cluttered these working vessels really were. Left bulkhead which supports the forecastle, has three elegant vertical cabinet type gothic panels. Next three scenes are beached in Endolyne, sadly waiting for her fiery end. As the image is enlarged, the inner arrangement of a McKay forecastle sprayrail is revealed. Cast shadows show there's an inner floor shelf that surrounds the entire deck. At the prow there's a graceful pointed curve which originally held belaying pins. Disregatd the clumsy wooden fence at the aft end of the forecastle deck. When she became a floating salmon processing factory, substantial modifications were done to her. The 1877 view from her stern looking forward is her original appearance. Then, the aft end of the forecastle was open, only protected by iron stanchions and wire slung between them. They're tough to see but they are in the photo. One other item Michael schooled us on was that McKay used old fashioned rectangular wooden bollards, not iron ones. When Rob was sceptical, Michael sent us a photo of a sailor on board, standing behind one. They were two large vertical posts, about 2 ft x 4 ft high pairs attached by a base arm of the same dimensions.

View attachment 458939

View attachment 458941

View attachment 458942

View attachment 458966

View attachment 458968

View attachment 458969

View attachment 458970

View attachment 458971

Give me a couple of weeks to make the necessary changes. With care and patience, it's all doable. I don't like the iron bollards either. The inner waist-pinrail at the base of the splashrail makes sense. It's just going to take time and patience to un-glue some of these existing elements without making a hash of it. I won't worry about the outer edge of the monkey rail being painted black since that was probably not finished mahogany like I have it. I just liked the elegant detail. Like Ford, " You can have any color you like, as long as it's black".
Oh, I broke the jibboom taking her to "show and tell" at the Washington Ship Model Society meeting Saturday. so I have to repair/replace that too. (I should have listened to the inner voice saying "Don't try to transport her! you'll break the jibboom!" And voila!

By the way, where were you months ago, when I could have used this information before blundering on in the dark? let's try to keep ahead of the curve.

Pete

 

[Peter Gutterman]

In '57 I was eleven.

 

[WilliamM]

In '57 I was eleven.

In '57 I was 3.

 

[Bill-R]

How about that. In 57 I was 3.

Bill

 

[Bill-R]

Just curious. I found the Flying Cloud plans developed by Scott Bradner. They appear to be a very complete and nice set of plans. Would you consider them to be an accurate representation of the Flying Cloud. He has put them out there for anyone to use.

Bill

 

[Peter Gutterman]

Thanks, Bill. I found them a while ago and got so exited I about peed myself! I printed out the whole set along with a few pics of his beautiful model.
Given Rich (ClipperFan"s) above and previous research, Bradner's plans (such as the coach house facade) and other aspects differ widely from what Rich has posted above, regarding the peculiarities of Donald McKay clipper ships. He makes his case very well given extent photos (mostly of "Glory of the Seas" and contemporary published descriptions) and I am re-configuring a number of aspects of my model to conform with that, such as all black on the outside including the spray rail. No iron bollards or iron chocks. Also to include a forecastle pin rail following the inside profile of the upper part of the spray rail. The spray rail in the drawing indicates an outside molding. I have added a handrail on top of my spray rail The outer edge shall serve as the molding as drawn. The inner edge is flush with the inside surface of the spray rail. It is against that inner edge that I will place the pin rail as seen in the photos of "Glory" under way. I will add to the spray rail above that to complete that feature with its fairlead openings for mooring cables. Rich suggests that the photos of that ship plus the contemporary descriptions of "Flying Cloud" at her launch, by Duncan Mclean, provide the closest analog to that ship's true appearance and features. I find his arguments and data to be convincing enough to do the necessary model builder's two-step (Two [or three] forward and one [ or more] back) to make the necessary modifications. What th' hell I'm not on a deadline and it's not a commission. Thanks for the head's up as per the Bradner plans.

Pete

 

[ClipperFan]

Peter & Bill,
Now that we've pretty much established that we're all somewhat older than dirt, I'll offer my apologies for my late entrance into your builds. Then again, better late than never. For the inconveniences this has caused you, again my apologies. However, it occurs to me that people who go through the effort to replicate McKay's beautiful clippers would want their hard work to result in an accurate model. If it makes you both feel any better, both Rob and Vlad both made a difficult decision to completely tear down and reconstruc their entire front forecastle decks. That's because they discovered that their deck heights were way too low. After the rework though, both of their models were orders of magnitude better. It's one of the reasons I told you the forecastle height is not at the main rail but at the top of the monkey rail.
Meanwhile, Scott Bradner has a highly detailed well researched site devoted to exclusively to the McKay clipper Flying Cloud. Unfortunately, he made an error in judgement. When he couldn't resolve the difference between this line: "she has neither head nor trail boards" he just simply decided to completely disregard structural significance of naval hoods and cutwaters. So all of his beautiful illustrated, carefully researched plans only feature a bare stem and nothing else. Scott himself even admits to being confused and essentially deciding that Duncan MacLean didn't know what he was talking about. Which is unfortunate because Mr. McLean later on describes the very ruggedness of this unique McKay bow and Scott apparently doesn't question what in the hades Duncan is describing.
In Scott's defense, he's probably never seen the amazing scenes of clipper Glory of the Seas that I've had the distinct opportunity to witness.

 

[Peter Gutterman]

The Poop deck on my model is level with the rail atop the lower bulwark (main rail). My forecastle deck is level with the rail atop the upper bulwark (monkey rail?).
Therefore, I think it's right. Also, my final configuration of the bow, bowsprit, naval hood, cutwater and figurehead appear to have passed the ClipperFan muster, for which I thank you. So, I am going to leave it as is, albeit making the changes necessary to conform to your drawing and the photos of the "Glory" as best I can make them out. (I've done away with the Iron bollards and chocks. The rest I described in my previous post.) I've already begun repainting outside of the upper bulwark and spray rail black.
A couple of days ago I looked up a picture of Scott Bradner's model and was surprised to see that he left the bow unresolved with only a naked stem. No naval hood, trailboard or figurehead, nothing! Even as a builder's or dockyard style model with stub masts it leaves the model in an unfinished and (as I said) unresolved state. I was surprised when I saw it given all the work he put into the plans and the model.

 

[ClipperFan]

Peter,
Isn't it amazing how the prow of Flying Cloud looks so unfinished now that you understand how her appearance really was? Ultimately, I plan on contacting Scott Bradner to clear up his unfortunate misunderstanding about the far more intricate and complex and unique McKay bow. Before I did though, a draft for my 2nd article on the completion of Rob and Vladimir's models should be submitted this October. Besides covering both stunning replicas, it will include our conclusion about the long lost McKay prow. Afterwards, I was thinking about sending an email to Scott. But now, after reading ongoing confusion his plans are continuing to cause would be modelers, I'm rethinking that decision and beginning to think I should contact him sooner.

 

[Peter Gutterman]

Seems like he is not immune to my own ongoing dilemma of being behind the curve of building details into a model based on speculation, or the best information I have at the time, then the actual information coming to light after I've committed to fabricating it. Fortunately for me (so far) nothing has been so irreversible that I haven't been able to change, or at least tweak it. I'm still going to be stuck with some things that I've committed to that will be open to question, (or even just plain wrong) that I will have to live with, given how baked they are into the pie at this juncture. When this happens, I can live with the fact, that while always open to legitimate critical examination, my models have aesthetic appeal, are not egregiously incorrect and are at least satisfying as works of art.
I'm always fine and comfortable in the knowledge that someone will inevitably build a better, more accurate, and historically faithful iteration than I have.
I think that, with your input, Bill M. might be next in line for that honor. I look forward to the result. No pressure!

 

[rwiederrich]

This has been a very pleasant read Gentlemen. If Rich and I hadn't Serendipitously came across one another so many years ago...we'd Probably still be wishing something could be done about the McKay Naval Hood debacle. Together we reinforced what we had determined separately, and with full confidence included them on my build of Glory of the Seas. Staghound has, for the most part, been Rich's dream to correct...and now I am fully prepared to begin her construction....with his and Vladimir's CAD expertise.........
Research is the backbone of any good project...and after we have settled on the most accurate of corrections....wood chips are gonna fly.

I have a build log over at Model ship World....but I will begin one here as well to accommodate my model shipwright friends here.

Good job on your Flying Cloud progress.

Rob