"Flying Cloud " by Mamoli - kit bash

it's very easy for me to sit here and blithely hoist a massive project onto your and Rob's shoulders, and not have to do any of the heavy lifting. These ideas always sound SO cool when somebody else has to execute them. :rolleyes:
 
it's very easy for me to sit here and blithely hoist a massive project onto your and Rob's shoulders, and not have to do any of the heavy lifting. These ideas always sound SO cool when somebody else has to execute them. :rolleyes:
Peter,
Honestly, nothing could be further from the truth. Reading Michael Mjelde's Glory of the Seas first published in 1970 (with that gorgeous Samuel Walters painting on the cover) ignited my passion for McKay's amazing clippers. His detailed recitations of her long career started my curiosity about all of McKay's incredible vessels. Michael Mjelde's fabulously engaging first book literally brought to life Donald McKay's beautiful clipper ships. But what bugged me was an almost barge like look of the endpaper sail plans. It felt impossible to me that such an illlustration really reflected the lovely vessel seen in so many contemporary photos. So, virtually at the same time as Rob was converting his 3' Revell Cutty Sark model into his first Glory of the Seas I began my serious attempts into correctly realizing the true appearance of McKay's final, longest lived clipper ship. That was now 15 years ago. Somehow, in my researchiing various elements for reconstructing Glory of the Seas I stumbled across the surprising fact that McKay's earliest clippers  Staghound and Flying Cloud both were equipped with navel hoods enveloping cutwaters identical to Glory of the Seas I was researching! Serendipity is a real thing. I was meticulously working on numerous scaled drawings on the East Coast, to assist Rob Wiederrich's efforts on the West Coast. We were working to scratch build an accurate scale model of the ship. This eventually drew the attention of Arina Caton. Who just happened to be Michael Mjelde's daughter. The rest is now history.
 
So true. What I thought, that was so funny, was at the same time across thousands of miles...we two...were working on the same problem...trying to reconcile so many errors we saw and read. We truly needed each other to accomplish the task....and then years later...comes along Vladimir(Who lives in Slavokia),...whom I had independently recruited while he was working on his own extremely large scale Cutty sark. I got him hooked on American clippers and subsequently...our project...Glory of the Seas.
All the pieces came together and our re-envisioned Glory of the Seas....was born.
Bringing the *crew* back together again, to realize Donald McKay's first clipper is an exciting adventure. There are no photographs....no drawn plans. Just the builders model, made by McKay's son, the written word, scribed by many astute, articulate authors. It is our job to interpret...create working drawings, then my job(At this time, Vlad will be joining me in the future), to build....from practically, thin air, McKay's premium initial entry into naval architects...*Greyhounds of the Sea*.

Rob
 
This eventually drew the attention of Arina Caton. Who just happened to be Michael Mjelde's daughter. The rest is now history.
Interesting fact, here She just happen to be doing some research for her father, Michael Mjelde, for his, then upcoming book, Perusing websites, when she came across our endeavor on MSW. She contacted me and we set up an appointment with Mike. The happiest, gittiest day of my modeling life.

Rob
 
Hello everyone,
I have seen that the Bluejacket Flying Cloud plans have been mentioned in discussion. I was looking around for a set of these plans, but have not been able to find them. I checked The Bluejacket site and their plans section doesn't have any plans, but states plans are coming soon. Is there a source for these plans?

Bill
 
I could perhaps make copies of what I have, which are incomplete. William M. has some. or you can get a complete set of AJ Fisher plans, which differ slightly from the BlueJacket, but are currently available. Fisher has a catalog online which you can download. You will need to call, leave a contact # and they will call you back. A little slow and retro but very accommodating. Any plans, Bluejacket, Fisher (or Mamoli, but I won't go there) will need to be revised. Much of that necessary information has appeared on this thread thanks to "Clipperfan" Richard Jones, and Rob Wiederrich.
The Model Shipways Flying Fish (plans and booklet, which are invaluable) have the most complete sail and belaying plans for Flying Clouds' virtual contemporary from Donald McKay. The only serious difference being that Flying Cloud has only one Spencer boom and sail and that on the main mast, while Flying Fish has two on the fore and main, respectively. Very easy to compensate and plan for. There is no reason in my mind that the two rigs, being so very close together in their time of construction, would differ in significant or material ways.
Scott Bradner's plans are available on his web site, SOBCO, and are very comprehensive and useful. Duncan Maclean's descriptions are essential and not be second guessed or overlooked.
I'll PM you when I can get a look at what I have to spare of the BlueJacket plans or can cobble together as copies and send them along.
I even think I may be able to send along enough of a combination of various plans an information for you to put together a plan of your own to make a start on your own design for a scratch build and can steer you away from the traps and design flaws I encountered. Wiliiam M. as well, If he's interested. Please feel free to appropriate anything you might find useful from my build log.

Pete
 
Hi Peter,

Thanks for the help. I'll check into the AJ Fisher and Model Shipways Plans. Doing some additional research and to me it appears that the Bluejacket plans and drawn off the 1928 Boucher plans by Charles Davis. Could this be correct?
I like the plans by Scott Bradner. I was looking for some information to fill in the gaps in his plans.

Bill
 
Hi Peter,

Thanks for the help. I'll check into the AJ Fisher and Model Shipways Plans. Doing some additional research and to me it appears that the Bluejacket plans and drawn off the 1928 Boucher plans by Charles Davis. Could this be correct?
I like the plans by Scott Bradner. I was looking for some information to fill in the gaps in his plans.

Bill
I think that is correct concerning the BlueJacket plans.
Bradner did some serious bashing of a Mamoli kit. That's why I thought I'd take that track. Little did I realize how seriously extensive was the bashing required.:eek:
 
So true. What I thought, that was so funny, was at the same time across thousands of miles...we two...were working on the same problem...trying to reconcile so many errors we saw and read. We truly needed each other to accomplish the task....and then years later...comes along Vladimir(Who lives in Slavokia),...whom I had independently recruited while he was working on his own extremely large scale Cutty sark. I got him hooked on American clippers and subsequently...our project...Glory of the Seas.
All the pieces came together and our re-envisioned Glory of the Seas....was born.
Bringing the *crew* back together again, to realize Donald McKay's first clipper is an exciting adventure. There are no photographs....no drawn plans. Just the builders model, made by McKay's son, the written word, scribed by many astute, articulate authors. It is our job to interpret...create working drawings, then my job(At this time, Vlad will be joining me in the future), to build....from practically, thin air, McKay's premium initial entry into naval architects...*Greyhounds of the Sea*.

Rob
Rob's being modest. None other than author Michael Mjelde, who's been single-handedly researching McKay's final clipper for six decades, has declared Rob's 1:96th scale, entirely scratch built Glory of the Seas the most accurate reproduction of that magnificent ship! That is exactly the lofty goal we set out to achieve and in all humility I believe we may have exceeded expectations.
 
Rob's being modest. None other than author Michael Mjelde, who's been single-handedly researching McKay's final clipper for six decades, has declared Rob's 1:96th scale, entirely scratch built Glory of the Seas the most accurate reproduction of that magnificent ship! That is exactly the lofty goal we set out to achieve and in all humility I believe we may have exceeded expectations.
Not to sound self serving, but, as you put it...the goal was to create the best recreation of Glory of the Seas as possible.......with that being said...humanity steps in and when that happens error is always introduced.
I hope to learn from those shortcomings and focus that attention...to make sure I don't repeat that on Staghound.
I'll need to overcome that strong desire to be a *hack* modeler. It is my habit to use every and any material available to me...not just wood. So I'm NOT a purist, by any stretch.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Rob( what happened to MSW...it's gone dark?)
 
Hello everyone,
I have seen that the Bluejacket Flying Cloud plans have been mentioned in discussion. I was looking around for a set of these plans, but have not been able to find them. I checked The Bluejacket site and their plans section doesn't have any plans, but states plans are coming soon. Is there a source for these plans?

Bill
Bill,.
Sobco.com Scott Bradner's excellent site provides a look at all commercial plans, including Blue Jacket's. I realize it's not the most comprehensive but it's a start. After seeing more than one picture of the straight forecastle on Glory of the Seas, it strikes me that the slight curvature on the forecastle of Flying Cloud is just pure conjecture, as is the overlarge rear house, which actually is simply an entrance to downstairs apartments. From what Scott Bradner wrote, the most accurate plans are of the Boucher hull, which might have been a tracing of the original hull drawn by Donald McKay's wife. To point you in the right direction, if you're starting from scratch, here's my reconstruction of the true appearance of the bow for Flying Cloud. Navel hoods and cutwater overlapping the bare stem are taken from Duncan McLean's description, as well as bow photos from Glory of the Seas. While her winged trumpet bearing winged angel is my interpretation, she too comes from the Boston Daily Atlas description. I've also made careful observations of as many contemporary images of her available. In addition, there's a famous advertising poster which features her in a fairly specific pose. We learned from looking at some salmon labels from Glory of the Seas that advertising artists often copied from real life.

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Bill,.
Sobco.com Scott Bradner's excellent site provides a look at all commercial plans, including Blue Jacket's. I realize it's not the most comprehensive but it's a start. After seeing more than one picture of the straight forecastle on Glory of the Seas, it strikes me that the slight curvature on the forecastle of Flying Cloud is just pure conjecture, as is the overlarge rear house, which actually is simply an entrance to downstairs apartments. From what Scott Bradner wrote, the most accurate plans are of the Boucher hull, which might have been a tracing of the original hull drawn by Donald McKay's wife. To point you in the right direction, if you're starting from scratch, here's my reconstruction of the true appearance of the bow for Flying Cloud. Navel hoods and cutwater overlapping the bare stem are taken from Duncan McLean's description, as well as bow photos from Glory of the Seas. While her winged trumpet bearing winged angel is my interpretation, she too comes from the Boston Daily Atlas description. I've also made careful observations of as many contemporary images of her available. In addition, there's a famous advertising poster which features her in a fairly specific pose. We learned from looking at some salmon labels from Glory of the Seas that advertising artists often copied from real life.

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Your representation of the naval hood and cutwater look spot on and gives me a good visual understanding of how they should be constructed.

Thanks, Bill
 
Bill,.
Sobco.com Scott Bradner's excellent site provides a look at all commercial plans, including Blue Jacket's. I realize it's not the most comprehensive but it's a start. After seeing more than one picture of the straight forecastle on Glory of the Seas, it strikes me that the slight curvature on the forecastle of Flying Cloud is just pure conjecture, as is the overlarge rear house, which actually is simply an entrance to downstairs apartments. From what Scott Bradner wrote, the most accurate plans are of the Boucher hull, which might have been a tracing of the original hull drawn by Donald McKay's wife. To point you in the right direction, if you're starting from scratch, here's my reconstruction of the true appearance of the bow for Flying Cloud. Navel hoods and cutwater overlapping the bare stem are taken from Duncan McLean's description, as well as bow photos from Glory of the Seas. While her winged trumpet bearing winged angel is my interpretation, she too comes from the Boston Daily Atlas description. I've also made careful observations of as many contemporary images of her available. In addition, there's a famous advertising poster which features her in a fairly specific pose. We learned from looking at some salmon labels from Glory of the Seas that advertising artists often copied from real life.

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Hello everyone,

WOW! That is a true testament to the dedication and effort that has been put forth in the pursuit of excellence.

Bill
Bill, Thanks! I'm honored by your compliment. Now you can see why it's been so frustrating to see these spectacular Flying Cloud replicas that have so missed the mark when it's come to what Rob and I now refer to as "the unique McKay bow."
 
Your representation of the naval hood and cutwater look spot on and gives me a good visual understanding of how they should be constructed.

Thanks, Bill
Bill, you're welcome. Do yourself a favor and look closely at the bow from Glory of the Seas. You'll see that, unlike decorative headboards or trailboards, McKay's navel hoods are actually integral structural extensions of the ship's hull. The naval hoods do an amazing twist from upper concave hull configuration to arriving at a combined point where they both overlap the underlying cutwater. The cutwater is itself an extension of the stem to which it attaches. Where others have made their mistakes is by completely discounting this inventive arrangement is by misunderstanding McLeans Scottish description of a "plain bow."

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Bill, you're welcome. Do yourself a favor and look closely at the bow from Glory of the Seas. You'll see that, unlike decorative headboards or trailboards, McKay's navel hoods are actually integral structural extensions of the ship's hull. The naval hoods do an amazing twist from upper concave hull configuration to arriving at a combined point where they both overlap the underlying cutwater. The cutwater is itself an extension of the stem to which it attaches. Where others have made their mistakes is by completely discounting this inventive arrangement is by misunderstanding McLeans Scottish description of a "plain bow."
The commonly used decorative headboards or trailboards, were missing entirely.....making her appear *naked*, and McLean's observation of her having a, "plain bow.", meant just that....but if you are not a student of those design elements on Packets and clippers of the time....you will, make the grave assumption, that so many have made. Not to mention....if you have not fully researched,(as Rich and I have done), the particulars of McKay's Secret implementations, and he himself has claimed.......you would not have the remotes idea of the significance or, lack there of, of said structures.

Reminds me of a similar event, that occurred when McKay was delivering the clipper lightning. The new owners were so put out that her entry and extreme concaved prow would make her so un-seaworthy and detract from her buoyancy....that they employed mechanics, and they fashioned inserts and nailed them to her bow to increase her fullness. All that did, was slow her down and destroy her handling ability. But on a passage back to the states...these additions broke away and cleared her bow and she sailed fast and true....as she was designed.

McKay was a brilliant naval architect..... His *secrets*...being Clearly overlooked by so many.

Rob
 
Bill,.
Sobco.com Scott Bradner's excellent site provides a look at all commercial plans, including Blue Jacket's. I realize it's not the most comprehensive but it's a start. After seeing more than one picture of the straight forecastle on Glory of the Seas, it strikes me that the slight curvature on the forecastle of Flying Cloud is just pure conjecture, as is the overlarge rear house, which actually is simply an entrance to downstairs apartments. From what Scott Bradner wrote, the most accurate plans are of the Boucher hull, which might have been a tracing of the original hull drawn by Donald McKay's wife. To point you in the right direction, if you're starting from scratch, here's my reconstruction of the true appearance of the bow for Flying Cloud. Navel hoods and cutwater overlapping the bare stem are taken from Duncan McLean's description, as well as bow photos from Glory of the Seas. While her winged trumpet bearing winged angel is my interpretation, she too comes from the Boston Daily Atlas description. I've also made careful observations of as many contemporary images of her available. In addition, there's a famous advertising poster which features her in a fairly specific pose. We learned from looking at some salmon labels from Glory of the Seas that advertising artists often copied from real life.

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Rich...this is the best rendition I have seen of the Angel of Flying Cloud.. Every one I see presented by model companies is holey unacceptable. Short, squat, clumsy looking and way to large.

Good job.

Rob
 
Lest I become regarded as "all hat and no cattle" I think it's time to post some progress pics. I had thought to wait until I got the main deck house finished, but that is a lot slower process than I had anticipated. A common misconception that I appear to be heir to. Just making all the little components to assemble the tiny parts necessary, in this case the paneled sliding doors and windows, is a time consuming and fiddley process.
It is well to have an assortment of chisels and gouges in a sufficient variety of shapes, sizes and widths to make the tiny cuts necessary to accurately cut out the pieces desired at scale without the use of laser cutting apparatus and CAD equipment. A mechanical pencil, some old-fashioned drafting instruments, A light table box for tracing and small, sharp cutting tools will get you there. This equipment may be retro but is far less expensive, with a much gentler learning curve than the afore mentioned tech apparatus. I am using a combination of Bristol cardstock board.1/64" birch ply and an assortment of commercially available "scale lumber" for materials. I hope the pictures will prove sufficiently self-explanatory to dispense with long winded descriptions of process. Any questions, please feel free to ask.20240803_132644 (1).jpg20240808_142241.jpg20240808_142157.jpg20240808_142311.jpg20240808_151024.jpg20240808_152528.jpg20240808_150305.jpg20240808_144631.jpg20240808_143557.jpg20240808_191220.jpg20240803_131733 (1).jpg

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