HIGH HOPES, WILD MEN AND THE DEVIL’S JAW - Willem Barentsz Kolderstok 1:50

Heinrich said:
Thank you very much Daniel. Yes you are absolutely correct with regards to the findings of Elling Carlssen. We know that it was Barentsz's hut because of a note that Barentsz had left there.

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Just some of the recovered objects.

In 1876 the Englishman Charles L.W. Gardiner visited the place where Willem Barentsz had spent the winter (l’Honoré Naber, 1917). He had been urged to do so by the Dutch polar explorer Koolemans Beynen. He arrived at the spot on 29 July, and collected another 112 objects. The most important object in his collection is the warrant: the message signed by Barentsz and Heemskerck to account for the existence of the house to later visitors (de Jonge, 1877).

Also in the above, there is no mention of the ships' names.

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This is the sequence in which explores/researchers have visited Het Behouden Huys. Now what is interesting that according to the latest findings, they have actually conducted a computer drawing of what Het Behouden Huys "really looked like".

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So my friend - the search continues. I will not rest.
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That is fascinating Heinrich. I can see how this search for a ships name adds a dimension of emotion to your build(s). I actually felt a moment of disappointment myself at hearing the lack of a ships name from Barentsz' hut.
 
Daniel I will share a personal story with you all tonight. When I came to China in 2017, I discovered the Daodejing (the "Bible" of Daoism) written by Laotze. Luckily for me there were a plethora of English translations available, but that did not help me much. The Daodejing is notorious for being extremely difficult to understand and when one figures in that there is a marked difference between the translations based on the original manuscript that was followed, it becomes even more confusing. I researched this to the extent that I began corresponding with a Sino-English Professor in the USA. He was of great help and his assistant even more so. After my "how many - eth" attempt to understand it, Professor Blake told me about a translation in Old English by a Scottish translator. Once I sourced a copy of that and read it, it all made perfect sense to me and I know deep in my heart that today I understand the essence of what Laotze tried to tell his followers almost 4000 years ago.

That is the same thing I am trying to do here.
 
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Daniel20 said:
What a wonderful story Heinrich. The reward for finally understanding a mystery is 'great joy'. Thanks for sharing.
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It's a pleasure my friend. Maybe I should just add that my research had nothing to do with a religion per se - I was trying to understand the two conflicting schools of thought prevalent in China at the time; Confucius on the one hand and Laotze on the other. That was important to me because Confucius - more than any other individual - was the one who shaped the Chinese society into what it is today.
 
Heinrich my friend, a question, is this Daoism still alive in China, or is this whiped out by the communism??
Your lifeboat looks great bye the way, and i love your rechearch for the name of the Barents ship.
Extremly fascinating how much facts about this trip you have dugg up since you started your search
 
@Daniel20

There you go my friend. The original script that Barentsz left behind in Het Behouden Huys. I do have the exact wording and the interpreted wording. NO mention of any ship except the decision to depart from there in sloops.

Script.png
 
pingu57 said:
Heinrich my friend, a question, is this Daoism still alive in China, or is this whiped out by the communism??
Your lifeboat looks great bye the way, and i love your rechearch for the name of the Barents ship.
Extremly fascinating how much facts about this trip you have dugg up since you started your search
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Thank you very much my friend. No - Daoism is still alive but it has taken a very secondary position to Buddhism which was supported heavily by Confucius. It is a misconception that the Chinese government has banned religion - there is even a Christian church in Nantong. Thank you for the kind words on the lifeboat - even though that is the practice boat, it has the potential to turn out very well once I am finished with it.

I have dug up a lot of facts my friend - and just as many questions! ;)
 
You know Heinrich, my hat is off to all those early explorers in wooden sailing ships that decided to navigate anywhere North of the arctic circle. From my reading the window of sailing time anywhere close to land (shallow waters) must have been very narrow before freezing occurred. The need for trade routes seems to be the leading cause for early explorations. To do it in wooden boats, without modern clothing or heating, well they just did not know any better.
 
Heinrich said:
No - Daoism is still alive but it has taken a very secondary position to Buddhism which was supported heavily by Confucius. It is a misconception that the Chinese government has banned religion - there is even a Christian church in Nantong.
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I have to say that i honestly did't know about this my friend, I thought that buddhism was the only religion in China thank you for this clearification,
and it is so that you raise new questions with every fact that you dig up, but that is always so, i am afraid, the more books you read about a subject, the more questions you end up with, because a lot of authors say different things about something, not many authors have the same ideas about some subjects
 
pingu57 said:
I have to say that i honestly did't know about this my friend, I thought that buddhism was the only religion in China thank you for this clearification,
and it is so that you raise new questions with every fact that you dig up, but that is always so, i am afraid, the more books you read about a subject, the more questions you end up with, because a lot of authors say different things about something, not many authors have the same ideas about some subjects
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Peter the diffrent opinions by the authors is not so big a problem here because the primary sources are few and when it comes to the interpretation, Ab and Gerald agree largely - yes there are specific points of difference, but overall there is also lots of agreement. My main problem is the inconsistency of data available. Why would De Veer include so much detail of the first two expeditions (he was not even on the first one) but then include no information on the ships in the third expedition?

Ab said it was because the third expedition was a failure and was treated differently. I find this unlikely. The second expedition was the biggest failure of all, and yet it has the most information! So that theory does not seem logical.

I will, however, try to follow another avenue ... let's see.
 
Heinrich, I doff my cap to you sir, with all your background research and work this little ship has taken on a life of it's own and is now so much more than just a model.
 
My dear friend, you are SO right. I am very glad that you can appreciate why I'm doing what I'm doing.

I am merely asking questions - questions which should be the easiest ones in the world to answer. I'm not talking about whether the cannons were installed on three-or four wheel gun carriages and if they were 3-or 4-pounders. I'm not asking what the color scheme of the ships was and how they were rigged . For crying out loud, I just want to know their names.

Here we have the most intelligent and experienced group of seafarers/explorers and intellectuals entrusted with finding the Northern Passage to China and India - a discovery which was so important that the Dutch State General believed that the future of the United Provinces of the Netherlands would depend on it. And then you tell me that we don't know how many ships went on these expeditions (for the 1594 expedition some sources cite three; the others four) and you don't know the names of these ships. But you do know exactly who was onboard, what they were equipped with and how much each crew member was paid. Exclamation-Mark

That is like saying: sorry, but we don't know the name of Shackleton's and Cook's ships! And when the States General of Amsterdam bought the ships for the 1596 expedition, what did they buy? "a ship: and then "one more ship"? And has no one ever asked what Jan Corneliszoon Rijp's ship was called?

So - I continue ...I owe it to all of my friends who have so faithfully followed this log and supported me. The whole issue has now become personal.
 
Heinrich, just a little side-jump popt up in my head, perhaps a bit suspicious of me, but if they have documented everything, except the names of the vessels, then the question pops up to me : Are they trying to hide something?? perhaps they knew that these ships were not good enough for the curcomstances at the NorthPole?? So they wiped out there names to avoid difficult questions?? You should remember you are talking about 1596, and all these city's and provences did not trust eachother for a bit. The fighting between de " Hoeken en Kabeljouwen " the noblesse ( Edelen ) and citys in the Lower Lands ( de Lage Landen ), they lasted from 1350 - 1490 so there could have been still a lot of hate and envy between the the citys and the noblesse
Have you thougt about that?
Perhaps my mind is going the wrong way, but who knows

So it's no different from todays politics.
 
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pingu57 said:
Heinrich, just a little side-jump popt up in my head, perhaps a bit suspicious of me, but if they have documented everything, except the names of the vessels, then the question pops up to me : Are they trying to hide something?? perhaps they knew that these ships were not good enough for the curcomstances at the NorthPole?? So they wiped out there names to avoid difficult questions?? You should remember you are talking about 1596, and all these city's and provences did not trust eachother for a bit. The fighting between de " Hoeken en Kabeljouwen " the noblesse ( Edelen ) and citys in the Lower Lands ( de Lage Landen ), they lasted from 1350 - 1490 so there could have been still a lot of hate and envy between the the citys and the noblesse
Have you thougt about that?
Perhaps my mind is going the wrong way, but who knows

So it's no different from todays politics.
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My friend - I do not even want to think about a conspiracy theory, but what is funny is that the missing ship names were mostly from Amsterdam Admiralty (3) and the Admiralty of Rotterdam (1). The exception was the Windhond from Amsterdam which was named. If you compare it to the extremely detailed articles that were available from Zeelandt (the best by far) and Enkhuyzen (second best) then Amsterdam Admiralty was just incompetent.

The ships were highly praised for their performance (except for the Griffioen which was called an "ongemanierde schip" ill-mannered ship) so I really don't think that was an issue.
 
Heinrich said:
y friend - I do not even want to think about a conspiracy theory, but what is funny is that the missing ship names were mostly from Amsterdam Admiralty (3) and the Admiralty of Rotterdam (1). The exception was the Windhond from Amsterdam which was named. If you compare it to the extremely detailed articles that were available from Zeelandt (the best by far) and Enkhuyzen (second best) then Amsterdam Admiralty was just incompetent.

The ships were highly praised for their performance (except for the Griffioen which was called an "ongemanierde schip" ill-mannered ship) so I really don't think that was an issue.
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Well, Heinrich, it was just a thought that popt up in my mind, but you can also be right of course, that it was just incompetence from the Admiralty.
Anyway i do hope that you can come up with the right name :):)
 
pingu57 said:
Well, Heinrich, it was just a thought that popt up in my mind, but you can also be right of course, that it was just incompetence from the Admiralty.
Anyway i do hope that you can come up with the right name :):)
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I'm not ruling out any thought Peter. Everything is worth considering, especially if there is nothing to go on. ;)
 
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