HIGH HOPES, WILD MEN AND THE DEVIL’S JAW - Willem Barentsz Kolderstok 1:50

RDN1954 said:
Fascinating research, Heinrich.
Two questions though: 1) the Russians apparently had quite some undisputed evidence at their disposal, eight cannons, three anchors, where did they obtain that evidence? 2) Why are they so persistent in their (re)search for WB's expedition and ship?
Click to expand...
Hi Johan. Those questions are the exact same things that I ask myself. As to the answers though, I have no idea. I would have loved to have spoken to Kravchenko, but I am not sure (and I say this with the biggest respect - I just don't know how else to phrase it) whether he is even still alive. As to what Kravchenko's sources might have been - all I know is that he was a very serious student of De Veer's Diary (in all its forms and different translations), but so were the Hakluyt Society and the Linschoten Vereeniging and they couldn't come up with anything different to what we know already.

As part of the studies of De Veer's journals, there is a ton of related commentaries, theses and hypotheses as to Barentsz's actual routes, the Nova Zembla Phenomenon, the studies of Plancius and so forth. Part of these writings deal with excerpts of what is believed to be from Barentsz's own journal/logbook and then debating the authenticity thereof. It is possible that these additional references may have contained information as to the ships' names - I don't know.

The other possible source may be the "lost" journal of Barentsz. This is another hugely controversial issue as there are actual pages from Barentsz's logbook incorporated into some of these writings. How this would have been possible if the journal was really lost, I wouldn't know - it makes one wonder about whether the logbook was really lost. De Veer did not go on the first expedition; yet he wrote his "Reisjournael" as if he was on the trip. It has been widely assumed that he used Van Linschoten's notes and Barentsz's journal during the First Expedition to compile his version. I also know that Barentsz's journal during the second expedition, was apparently given to Plancius, who used it to map the route for the Third Expedition.

Yet, it is claimed that Barentsz's journal for the 1596 expedition was lost. Unbelievable.
 
Fascinating research indeed my friend, that list of participants and organizers sounds real impressive, yet there are no results of these expeditions told as far as the name should be, or did i miss something?? Except for that journal that is apparently missing but wich they can qoute out. in some reports??
 
Heinrich said:
Hi Johan. Those questions are the exact same things that I ask myself. As to the answers though, I have no idea. I would have loved to have spoken to Kravchenko, but I am not sure (and I say this with the biggest respect - I just don't know how else to phrase it) whether he is even still alive. As to what Kravchenko's sources might have been - all I know is that he was a very serious student of De Veer's Diary (in all its forms and different translations), but so were the Hakluyt Society and the Linschoten Vereeniging and they couldn't come up with anything different to what we know already.

As part of the studies of De Veer's journals, there is a ton of related commentaries, theses and hypotheses as to Barentsz's actual routes, the Nova Zembla Phenomenon, the studies of Plancius and so forth. Part of these writings deal with excerpts of what is believed to be from Barentsz's own journal/logbook and then debating the authenticity thereof. It is possible that these additional references may have contained information as to the ships' names - I don't know.

The other possible source may be the "lost" journal of Barentsz. This is another hugely controversial issue as there are actual pages from Barentsz's logbook incorporated into some of these writings. How this would have been possible if the journal was really lost, I wouldn't know - it makes one wonder about whether the logbook was really lost. De Veer did not go on the first expedition; yet he wrote his "Reisjournael" as if he was on the trip. It has been widely assumed that he used Van Linschoten's notes and Barentsz's journal during the First Expedition to compile his version. I also know that Barentsz's journal during the second expedition, was apparently given to Plancius, who used it to map the route for the Third Expedition.

Yet, it is claimed that Barentsz's journal for the 1596 expedition was lost. Unbelievable.
Click to expand...
I gave your reply some time to settle, but it just doesn't seem to add up. Too many coincidences of a journal being lost, people knowing exactly the configuration of the expedition ship(s), whereas other respected researchers have to conclude that we'll probably never know the exact history of WB'S 3rd expedition.
In all honesty, it makes my skin crawl.
I'm truly hoping your research efforts will yield more clarity.
 
pingu57 said:
Fascinating research indeed my friend, that list of participants and organizers sounds real impressive, yet there are no results of these expeditions told as far as the name should be, or did i miss something?? Except for that journal that is apparently missing but wich they can qoute out. in some reports??
Click to expand...
Hi Peter. No, these are simply the preparations for the 2012 expedition and by that time, the name "Mercury/Mercurius" was already well established - at least as far as the Russians were concerned. The wreck fragment of which I showed the photograph earlier, received the plaque already in 2005, seven years prior to this expedition. As far as Barentsz's journal goes - yes. In the supplementary research documents (not in De Veer's diary) mention is made of extracts from Barentsz's journal and separate pages which was reportedly in his handwriting! This is even more confusing than the ships' names.
 
RDN1954 said:
I gave your reply some time to settle, but it just doesn't seem to add up. Too many coincidences of a journal being lost, people knowing exactly the configuration of the expedition ship(s), whereas other respected researchers have to conclude that we'll probably never know the exact history of WB'S 3rd expedition.
In all honesty, it makes my skin crawl.
I'm truly hoping your research efforts will yield more clarity.
Click to expand...
Johan, that is my whole point - it does not add up. Later on, I will post copies of the news articles on the 2012 expedition. These were not reports from some local little newspaper who might have received the information third hand, but from national news agencies and broadcasting corporations. True, not all the reports mention the ship's name, but when they do, it is inevitably the name "Mercury" that is listed.

My rationale is that with all that money and resources that the Russians were spending towards their research and the resultant findings, they must have had a very good reason for calling the ship the "Mercury". What that reason is, I can't tell you, but that they were/are sure about the name, is without doubt.
 
Wow, the mystery becomes more and more mysterious as you find those historical narratives. I don’t know if I’m confused, bewildered, overwhelmed or maybe just not assimilating all that information in the proper order. I’ve read, reread and read again all your posts. The name of the ship is ???
 
Heinrich said:
My rationale is that with all that money and resources that the Russians were spending towards their research and the resultant findings, they must have had a very good reason for calling the ship the "Mercury". What that reason is, I can't tell you, but that they were/are sure about the name, is without doubt.
Click to expand...
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement...
(Doesn't make me any happier though.)
 
Pathfinder65 said:
Wow, the mystery becomes more and more mysterious as you find those historical narratives. I don’t know if I’m confused, bewildered, overwhelmed or maybe just not assimilating all that information in the proper order. I’ve read, reread and read again all your posts. The name of the ship is ???
Click to expand...
Jan at this stage, I am only prepared to say that according to the Russian research teams who carried out expeditions in 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1991, 1992, 1995, 2006, 2008, 2009 and then this one under discussion now in 2012, the name of the ship is the "Mercury/Mercurius". The plaque with the name "Mercury" was attached to the wreck fragment after the 2005 expedition. Now if you read Hoving's book, the Dutch could last share in the results of the 1992 expedition. That means that there were a further five expeditions (including this one in 2012) of which the results and findings are unknown to "Westerners" (in the broadest sense of the word).
 
RUSSIAN EXPEDITION: PRESS CONFERENCE

Press Conference: The project "Willem Barents Caravel"
Gostiny Dvor Gallery (Arkhangelsky Regional Museum of Local Lore)
28 September at 16.00

Speakers:

Dmitry Kravchenko: Head of the search expedition for the ascent Willem Barents Caravels, Vice-President of the Travelers Association

Vladimir Klimko: Vice-President of the Foundation for assistance to the northern and Arctic territories "The North is ours!"

Eugene Penyevskoy: General Director of CJSC "Belfreight"

Nicholas Lomakin: Head of the Search Diving Group of Gulfstream LLC (partner of the shipowner) JSC "Belfreight")

Gennadiy Danilov: Advisor to the Director of the National Park "Russian Arctic" - Participant in the search expedition to raise Willem's caravel Barents

Gennady Danilov "Russian Arctic": I am advisor to the director, and have been engaged in the project directly since 1992. In 2009, the "Russian Arctic" National Park was created. Within the National Park there are many places associated with the development of the Arctic since approximately the 12th-14th centuries, when these places were first mentioned. This is primarily due to the restoration of the memorable sites of the Barents expedition of 1596-97. The expedition in question regards the violation of natural conditions and cultural values that exist today, as very serious. Proper and thorough investigation is required as to how artifacts can be raised without any harm being done to the artifacts themselves and to the surrounding environment. We are all directly involved in this. Today is just the beginning - there is a lot of work ahead.

Vladimir Klimko "North Nash": In the past the year, Dmitry Fedorovich (Kravchenko) approached the foundation with a request to support the expeditions in search for the caravel of Willem Barents with a view towards its future reconstruction. Our response was immediate and without any hesitation. Therefore, the Board of the Foundation, with the personal participation and support of Yuri Vasilyevich Neyolov, decided to support and finance the expedition. The painstaking preparation has been completed and has brought us to today. I want to express my gratitude to our partners: CJSC "Belfraht", LLC "Gulfstream", the National park "Russian Arctic", and Arkhangelsk Regional Museum of Local Lore who have selflessly spent their time and resources on this expedition. Not everything is measured by money. The companionship and the romanticism that are present, have a distinctive Russian character feature, and will allow us to achieve a lot. Let's wish the expedition success in these difficult (weather conditions) days, we are close to the long-awaited goal. Hopefully, we will be able to recreate the ship that traversed the vastness of the Arctic more than 400 years ago Thank you!

Nikolay Nikolaevich Lomakin Gulf Stream: Solving the challenges facing the expedition is complicated by the fact that the weather has turned on us! Under these conditions, we will have to work with full commitment and dedication. I accept full responsibility for the tasks entrusted to us. Therefore, we will endeavor to justify the trust place in us, use all our opportunities, and strive towards the common goal!

Evgeny Penyevsky CJSC "Belfreight": Thank you Dmitry Fedorovich, dear ladies and gentlemen, I am sincerely glad that I am taking part in such a significant historical project. Our company "Belfreight" monitors and specializes in the organizational and research works in the northern seas. We have been interested in this project for a very long time and, it has always held our sincere interest. Only this year we were able to purchase and modernize a vessel that fully meets the requirements of such an expedition in the latitudes of the Arctic. Of course, this the project has huge historical value, but at the same time it is also of socio-economic significance.
 
Dear Friends. Tonight, is the last post for the week as far as the expedition goes and sees the expedition setting off to Nova Zemlaya (Nova Zembla).

IMG_3408.jpg

WE'RE GETTING STARTED:

TODAY, September 29, 2012 at 18.00 (Moscow time) an expedition leaves Arkhangelsk to search for the remains of Willem Barents’s Caravel.

Good luck to the team and fair wind!

Screen shot 2012-10-07 at 6.17.41 pm.png
Vesti.Russia's announcement and news article on the start of the expedition. The two blocked words in red refer to "Mercury" verbatim.
 
Heinrich said:
Dear Friends. Tonight, is the last post for the week as far as the expedition goes and sees the expedition setting off to Nova Zemlaya (Nova Zembla).

View attachment 356349

WE'RE GETTING STARTED:

TODAY, September 29, 2012 at 18.00 (Moscow time) an expedition leaves Arkhangelsk to search for the remains of Willem Barents’s Caravel.

Good luck to the team and fair wind!

View attachment 356350
Vesti.Russia's announcement and news article on the start of the expedition. The two blocked words in red refer to "Mercury" verbatim.
Click to expand...
Speechless
 
Dear Friends

The new academic semester started with me being promoted to Head of English. Obviously, this brings with it added responsibility and a heavier workload, but in lieu of me trying to obtain a very rare work permit extension in China, it may just be a good thing. In any case, last night the English department went out for dinner, so I thought I would share a picture with you of my work colleagues. I was very chuffed that the admiral could join us (she is seated next to me).

微信图片_20230211090737.jpg
 
RogerD said:
Congratulations on your promotion Heinrich I am very happy for you. The happy smiling faces in that photo say it all and to have Anna there must have been the icing on the cake.
Click to expand...
Thank you, my friend! Normally Anna only arrives much later on a Friday night, so it was a big surprise!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top