HIGH HOPES, WILD MEN AND THE DEVIL’S JAW - Willem Barentsz Kolderstok 1:50

[Heinrich]

In that case we have to agree to disagree.

So, Johan, let me see if I understand correctly. You are saying that I should attach the same value to two interpretations that, on the one hand, were largely based on theoretical knowledge (Hoving did see a piece of the wreckage that the Russians discovered in 1992/1993) as opposed to an interpretation that is based on the physical evidence of 20 hull frames, a large portion of the keel and parts of the rigging?

In that case, we will certainly have to agree to disagree.

 

[RDN1954]

So, Johan, let me see if I understand correctly. You are saying that I should attach the same value to two interpretations that, on the one hand, were largely based on theoretical knowledge (Hoving did see a piece of the wreckage that the Russians discovered in 1992/1993) as opposed to an interpretation that is based on the physical evidence of 20 hull frames, a large portion of the keel and parts of the rigging?

In that case, we will certainly have to agree to disagree.

My point is that while the Russians might have recovered parts of the expedition ship, thus being in a position to more accurately reconstruct the expedition ship, I am not willing to completely disregard the work done by Hoving and van de Weerdt. Adding to the mix is that I could find preciously little information, other than the information you provided, regarding the Russian expeditions.
Having excavated 20 frames and the keel plus some rigging is not sufficient to allow an accurate model to be generated. One would still have to rely on other sources.
I think it would be more beneficial if the parties involved would share their knowledge and findings with one another. Not being open on what's available makes me rather suspicious about intentions.

 

[Heinrich]

Adding to the mix is that I could find preciously little information, other than the information you provided, regarding the Russian expeditions.

Johan, with all due respect - I have posted numerous magazines, TV broadcasts and websites covering the expedition. If you found precious little, it is only because you did not know where to look. The videos that I have shared are YouTube videos.

Having excavated 20 frames and the keel plus some rigging is not sufficient to allow an accurate model to be generated.

You forgot that Dutch ships were built shell first - very few frames were used to determine the actual shape at the start of a build.



This photograph shows only one full frame in position and if I were to guess, probably seven or 8 main futtock frames at the start of the build of the WB replica.


From the actual drawings of De Weerdt. Six full frames, and a further four futtocks and you have a hull. 20 Frames and large portions of the keel are more than enough to gain a reasonably accurate picture of what the hull looked like.

Not being open on what's available makes me rather suspicious about intentions.

Of course, there is going to be a difference in the communiques distributed to the general press and those to the actual government departments involved in the research.

Also, the Russians are under no obligation to anyone to be "open" about their discoveries - why should they? We have to get realistic here about how things work in the real world. What have the Dutch done to find out more about these findings and discoveries. In fact, I will go one step further, Are they even aware of these discoveries?

And as to not being "open" about things - Are we really expected to believe that Barentsz's journal was lost when German researcher and commentator, Hessel Geritz has published and commented on portions of it? Are we really expected to believe that when the names of the ships of the 1594 and 1695 expeditions were meticulously recorded, that there is no evidence as to the identity of the ships of the 1596 expedition? So, if the Russians aren't "open" about their findings, neither are the Dutch "open" about their historical records.

 

[RDN1954]

Johan, with all due respect - I have posted numerous magazines, TV broadcasts and websites covering the expedition. If you found precious little, it is only because you did not know where to look. The videos that I have shared are YouTube videos.


You forgot that Dutch ships were built shell first - very few frames were used to determine the actual shape at the start of a build.

View attachment 361464

This photograph shows only one full frame in position and if I were to guess, probably seven or 8 main futtock frames at the start of the build of the WB replica.

View attachment 361465
From the actual drawings of De Weerdt. Six full frames, and a further four futtocks and you have a hull. 20 Frames and large portions of the keel are more than enough to gain a reasonably accurate picture of what the hull looked like.


Of course, there is going to be a difference in the communiques distributed to the general press and those to the actual government departments involved in the research.

Also, the Russians are under no obligation to anyone to be "open" about their discoveries - why should they? We have to get realistic here about how things work in the real world. What have the Dutch done to find out more about these findings and discoveries. In fact, I will go one step further, Are they even aware of these discoveries?

And as to not being "open" about things - Are we really expected to believe that Barentsz's journal was lost when German researcher and commentator, Hessel Geritz has published and commented on portions of it? Are we really expected to believe that when the names of the ships of the 1594 and 1695 expeditions were meticulously recorded, that there is no evidence as to the identity of the ships of the 1596 expedition? So, if the Russians aren't "open" about their findings, neither are the Dutch "open" about their historical records.

Well Heinrich,

Essentially you are driving my point home.
My issue has been for a long time and still is, that there is too little reliable source information publicly available to match archeological finds with manuscripts, paintings, sketches. If what you suspect is true and people/institutions are not willing or able to share critical information, it will be hard to impossible to match archeological finds, manuscripts, etc in such a manner that the connection with the expedition ship is irrefutable. In my opinion one should be able to trace back any piece of information or hardware back to its origins, if not it becomes a "possible", not "confirmed".
In no way or form do I want to discredit your impressive research, but this is my honest opinion.

 

[Kolderstok]

Something to add to all what has been written above:
Both Hoving and de Weerdt based their interpretation of the ship on a 30 last vessel, but it could be in fact the 50 last vessel on which Barentsz sailed. Shape and size of the actual found ship (no doubt it was Barentsz’ ship) could and would be different.

 

[Heinrich]

Something to add to all what has been written above:
Both Hoving and de Weerdt based their interpretation of the ship on a 30 last vessel, but it could be in fact the 50 last vessel on which Barentsz sailed. Shape and size of the actual found ship (no doubt it was Barentsz’ ship) could and would be different.

Exactly Hans - that is a most important observation! There is a schematic drawing from Ab's book that I will share that is most interesting re the hull shape. Unfortunately, I can only do that tomorrow, as the book is at work!

 

[Heinrich]

Well Heinrich,

Essentially you are driving my point home.
My issue has been for a long time and still is, that there is too little reliable source information publicly available to match archeological finds with manuscripts, paintings, sketches. If what you suspect is true and people/institutions are not willing or able to share critical information, it will be hard to impossible to match archeological finds, manuscripts, etc in such a manner that the connection with the expedition ship is irrefutable. In my opinion one should be able to trace back any piece of information or hardware back to its origins, if not it becomes a "possible", not "confirmed".
In no way or form do I want to discredit your impressive research, but this is my honest opinion.

Well, there is one aspect that has not yet been researched. Due to people following Hoving and De Weerdt's rationale that Barentsz was on the 30 last ship, all Dutch efforts have centered around that ship. As far as I know no one has researched the Amsterdam Mercurius yet. We just know that it has been on both 1594 and 1595 expeditions. What would complicate research here is the fact that Enkhuizen also had a 50 last Mercurius that was on both the '94 and'95 expeditions. So, let me when you are ready to go the Rijksmuseum and I will set an appointment for you with the curator!

 

[Heinrich]

@pingu57
@RDN1954
@Kolderstok

I'm in luck - I do have the book here!



From Ab's book: This is a graph that shows the lasten (tonnage) on the Y-Axis and the length in meters and Amsterdam on the X-Axis. If we look at a 30 last ship (in yellow), we see that the length is approximately 19 meters - spot on with Hoving's findings (19.113m or 67.50 feet), while De Weerdt's version is marginally shorter at 18.6 meters or 65 feet.

However, look at the red lines which indicate a 50 last ship and a length of approximately 23 meters or 79 feet. Now look at how much wider the 50 last hull is than the 30 last one - which is exactly what the Russian drawings show.

And what is the length of the ship (stevens tot stevens) on the Russian drawings? Naumenkov = 25 meters and Zhdan = 23.75 meters!!! What better proof than that can you get that Barentsz was on the 50 last ship!

 

[RDN1954]

Well, there is one aspect that has not yet been researched. Due to people following Hoving and De Weerdt's rationale that Barentsz was on the 30 last ship, all Dutch efforts have centered around that ship. As far as I know no one has researched the Amsterdam Mercurius yet. We just know that it has been on both 1594 and 1595 expeditions. What would complicate research here is the fact that Enkhuizen also had a 50 last Mercurius that was on both the '94 and'95 expeditions. So, let me when you are ready to go the Rijksmuseum and I will set an appointment for you with the curator!

I'll hold you to that! September 30th 2023 I will be present at the Scheepvaartmuseum in Amsterdam.

 

[Heinrich]

I'll hold you to that! September 30th 2023 I will be present at the Scheepvaartmuseum in Amsterdam.

Thank you, Johan!

 

[pingu57]

! What better proof than that can you get that Barentsz was on the 50 last ship!

I believe you entirely Heinrich, but do you have enough plans and data to build an accurate replica of the Mercurius??

 

[Heinrich]

Dear Peter. Below the waterline I think we have enough material to build an accurate model. However, from deck level upwards, I have to rely solely on the interpretation of the Russians. Unless of course, they have made further discoveries that they I am unaware of.

 

[Nomad]

Just catching up with your build log Heinrich. Or should I say, catching up with your epic historical documentary! Great work as ever, and always interesting. I'm also hoping that this comment helps your log turn over to 300 pages

 

[Heinrich]

Just catching up with your build log Heinrich. Or should I say, catching up with your epic historical documentary! Great work as ever, and always interesting. I'm also hoping that this comment helps your log turn over to 300 pages

Thank you for the kind words, Mark. My apologies for the very late reply, but I just have no spare time at the moment to keep up with what is happening on SOS (other than my Bluenose tasks). The sad part is that I don't see things changing for the foreseeable future either.

 

[Nomad]

Thank you for the kind words, Mark. My apologies for the very late reply, but I just have no spare time at the moment to keep up with what is happening on SOS (other than my Bluenose tasks). The sad part is that I don't see things changing for the foreseeable future either.

I'm in a similar position Heinrich, snowed under as it were. When I do on occasion get into into the dockyards for a spell, I spend a good while trying to work out where I'd left off, what to do next, and trying to remember the pitfalls I'd promised myself not to forget, by which time the sand has run out and I need to resume normal life again, whatever that is. I hope things ease up for you soon too

 

[Daniel20]

Hello Heinrich! I'm beginning to miss your bi-weekly research results, but I understand that work demands must take priority. Stay well my friend and post when you can.

 

[Daniel20]

When I do on occasion get into into the dockyards for a spell, I spend a good while trying to work out where I'd left off

How very true, I wondered if I was the only one to experience this.

 

[Heinrich]

I'm in a similar position Heinrich, snowed under as it were. When I do on occasion get into into the dockyards for a spell, I spend a good while trying to work out where I'd left off, what to do next, and trying to remember the pitfalls I'd promised myself not to forget, by which time the sand has run out and I need to resume normal life again, whatever that is. I hope things ease up for you soon too

Hi Mark. Luckily, I know exactly what needs to be done and what to do next, but to find the time and energy for that is another story. Right now, I'm just taking each day as it comes and before I know it, it's 11 o'clock in the evening (like it is now).

 

[Heinrich]

Hello Heinrich! I'm beginning to miss your bi-weekly research results, but I understand that work demands must take priority. Stay well my friend and post when you can.

Hello Daniel. As far as the research goes, that is all done and dusted. I have my answer and I'm happy with that. The building though, is far from done and the way things look now, my first available time will be during the June school vacation. However, that is not all clear cut either, as I may use the opportunity to visit South Africa during that time (my first time in six years)! So, I'll just see how things are progressing and what the future holds.

 

[Heinrich]

Dear Friends

Please allow me the opportunity of touching sides with you and giving you an update on what is happening at the moment in my life.

Swedish truck-and bus manufacturer (now part of the Volkswagen AG Group) has opened a new production plant in Rugao, Nantong and between now and January 2024, more than 100 families from Sweden, the Netherlands and Brazil will relocate to Nantong. For any international school in Nantong (there are currently 7) this is a massive opportunity to secure future growth and bragging rights which can be used in future marketing.

As Head of English, my responsibility is considerable as all subjects are taught in English. I am in the process of meeting each and every one of these couples as they arrive to introduce the school and its curriculum to them. We are a Cambridge accredited school, but what I would like to achieve is to incorporate elements of each of these three countries' national syllabi in our curriculum so that when they return to their motherlands or to each of these three previously mentioned countries, the educational transition would be as seamless as possible. This is something that has never been done before anywhere in the world, so I am flying completely solo on this one.

Of course, all my other responsibilities in the school continue as normal (at least until I have found suitable teachers to join our staff), so you can well imagine that there is just no time for shipbuilding. I do try from time to time to pop in here and see what is happening, but that is it for the moment.

I want to conclude by wishing you all well with your current builds and urging you to enjoy every moment that you have available to work on your ships.

As always - with the warmest greetings and the kindest regards - Heinrich