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Hms Victory by Caldercraft

Joined
Feb 8, 2021
Messages
503
Points
353

Location
Victoria Australia
About to start and yet another build log on Victory. But first...colours..? I have been attempting to research the colour scheme as it was at Trafalgar 1805. The first thing to accept and move on from is that the paint job on Victory varied enormously over its life, so the concepts of right and wrong are pretty elastic to say the least.
My understanding is that the last/current restoration of the ship from 2017 onwards has established that in 1805 the Yellow Ochre colour on show since 1925 or so is in fact quite wrong. The paint samples taken from the planks and analyzed by the laboratory at University of Lincoln show that it was painted the colour as now restored on the ship in Portsmouth, described variously as "pale yellow" to "pink". I have not seen it in the flesh so my judgements are very uncertain but it looks pink to me..and I feel a certain sympathy with the hostile opponents of the new "researched" colour scheme, some of whom are acknowledged Victory experts. Some of the discussion is way over the top heated....but pink..?

What is known is that
1. Nelson wanted the "yellow" bands to be "6 parts yellow to one part white" but the Admitralty refused this. But who knows what the yellow was or even the white anyway..? The carpenters log of stores from the job says it was 1 part yellow to 1 part white...but again unless you know what the "yellow" and "white" were it doesnt really help you at all.
2. The masts were cream.
3. The "black" bands were not black but charcoal grey.
4. The gunport lids were NOT red on top, but the colour of the enclosing hull band ...(whatever version of yellow you decide on). They were therefore not apparent when closed and the famous chequerboard effect was they were open showing the contrast of the red undersides of the lids with the yellow surrounds....when closed down they disappeared into the hull.
So... having waded through far too much info on this I am building my Victory with cream masts, very pale yellow bands, charcoal grey bands, red undersides to gunport lids, very pale yellow tops to the lids same as the surrounding hull section.
Would be very pleased to be directed to any research which might change my choices. Congratulations to all the current Victory builders on the great work they are doing. I cant wait to get Montanes off the bench ( a few weeks at least) and then get started.
 
About to start and yet another build log on Victory. But first...colours..? I have been attempting to research the colour scheme as it was at Trafalgar 1805. The first thing to accept and move on from is that the paint job on Victory varied enormously over its life, so the concepts of right and wrong are pretty elastic to say the least.
My understanding is that the last/current restoration of the ship from 2017 onwards has established that in 1805 the Yellow Ochre colour on show since 1925 or so is in fact quite wrong. The paint samples taken from the planks and analyzed by the laboratory at University of Lincoln show that it was painted the colour as now restored on the ship in Portsmouth, described variously as "pale yellow" to "pink". I have not seen it in the flesh so my judgements are very uncertain but it looks pink to me..and I feel a certain sympathy with the hostile opponents of the new "researched" colour scheme, some of whom are acknowledged Victory experts. Some of the discussion is way over the top heated....but pink..?

What is known is that
1. Nelson wanted the "yellow" bands to be "6 parts yellow to one part white" but the Admitralty refused this. But who knows what the yellow was or even the white anyway..? The carpenters log of stores from the job says it was 1 part yellow to 1 part white...but again unless you know what the "yellow" and "white" were it doesnt really help you at all.
2. The masts were cream.
3. The "black" bands were not black but charcoal grey.
4. The gunport lids were NOT red on top, but the colour of the enclosing hull band ...(whatever version of yellow you decide on). They were therefore not apparent when closed and the famous chequerboard effect was they were open showing the contrast of the red undersides of the lids with the yellow surrounds....when closed down they disappeared into the hull.
So... having waded through far too much info on this I am building my Victory with cream masts, very pale yellow bands, charcoal grey bands, red undersides to gunport lids, very pale yellow tops to the lids same as the surrounding hull section.
Would be very pleased to be directed to any research which might change my choices. Congratulations to all the current Victory builders on the great work they are doing. I cant wait to get Montanes off the bench ( a few weeks at least) and then get started.
This is a great project I look forward to seeing your progress.
A few years ago l picked up this kit that had been completed to copper plates on one side. Unfortunately the more I checked the more problems I found. Most of the issues started with a number of bulkheads not sitting correctly on the keel. I'll get around to fixing her up one day.
When we went back to the UK in the mid 90s we went to Portsmouth to see the Victory, the thing I remember most how bad colour looked. I was expecting a light shade of yellow but it looked like primer waiting for a top coat.
Good luck with your build.

Tony
 
About to start and yet another build log on Victory. But first...colours..? I have been attempting to research the colour scheme as it was at Trafalgar 1805. The first thing to accept and move on from is that the paint job on Victory varied enormously over its life, so the concepts of right and wrong are pretty elastic to say the least.
My understanding is that the last/current restoration of the ship from 2017 onwards has established that in 1805 the Yellow Ochre colour on show since 1925 or so is in fact quite wrong. The paint samples taken from the planks and analyzed by the laboratory at University of Lincoln show that it was painted the colour as now restored on the ship in Portsmouth, described variously as "pale yellow" to "pink". I have not seen it in the flesh so my judgements are very uncertain but it looks pink to me..and I feel a certain sympathy with the hostile opponents of the new "researched" colour scheme, some of whom are acknowledged Victory experts. Some of the discussion is way over the top heated....but pink..?

What is known is that
1. Nelson wanted the "yellow" bands to be "6 parts yellow to one part white" but the Admitralty refused this. But who knows what the yellow was or even the white anyway..? The carpenters log of stores from the job says it was 1 part yellow to 1 part white...but again unless you know what the "yellow" and "white" were it doesnt really help you at all.
2. The masts were cream.
3. The "black" bands were not black but charcoal grey.
4. The gunport lids were NOT red on top, but the colour of the enclosing hull band ...(whatever version of yellow you decide on). They were therefore not apparent when closed and the famous chequerboard effect was they were open showing the contrast of the red undersides of the lids with the yellow surrounds....when closed down they disappeared into the hull.
So... having waded through far too much info on this I am building my Victory with cream masts, very pale yellow bands, charcoal grey bands, red undersides to gunport lids, very pale yellow tops to the lids same as the surrounding hull section.
Would be very pleased to be directed to any research which might change my choices. Congratulations to all the current Victory builders on the great work they are doing. I cant wait to get Montanes off the bench ( a few weeks at least) and then get started.
Hello
Looking forward to seeing your build
Interesting study on the colors, in particular for above and below gun port lids
 
Just my 2c worth, but Victory ship models with yellow ochre stripes really dates the build. Better for you to go with the current version of the ship ( in my opinion)
 
Love that you are spending the time on research. If you are researching the entire build and plan to kit bash, your build is going to be fun to follow.
Allan
 
Just my 2c worth, but Victory ship models with yellow ochre stripes really dates the build. Better for you to go with the current version of the ship ( in my opinion)
Well yes Bryan... I get that, I just cant get past the fact that to my eyes it looks pink and I need to convince myself otherwise. The fact that we have all been building Victory with strong yellow ochre is just bad luck...what else could anyone do..? It was sitting there for 75 yrs or so painted that way. So now we are expected to accept that the yellow ochre was always wrong..and it was really pink..? Nahhhh...! sorry .."pale yellow which looks pink in some light"... still not convinced one way or the other.
The carpenters stores shows equal yellow and white... the Lincoln Uni research analysts say there is some red ochre mixed in at that layer. Interesting, but at the end of the day who cares..? I am by inclination an accepter of science, so all my instincts are to believe the analysis but in this case I find myself doubting whether it passes the pub test.
 
Mine is yellow ochre, and I'm sticking with it. How many times has "science" been proven wrong? In a letter home, a sailor at Trafalgar wrote "The French are just like ours, black with yellow stripes," and "when the ports are opened, the hull has a checker look". Added to the evidence are many contemporary paintings by those who actually saw her, I'll take their word over any revised coloring. ( Painting by the renowned Turner, who said he "only painted what he saw").

il_fullxfull.3045530382_abcx.jpg
 
Well yes Bryan... I get that, I just cant get past the fact that to my eyes it looks pink and I need to convince myself otherwise. The fact that we have all been building Victory with strong yellow ochre is just bad luck...what else could anyone do..? It was sitting there for 75 yrs or so painted that way. So now we are expected to accept that the yellow ochre was always wrong..and it was really pink..? Nahhhh...! sorry .."pale yellow which looks pink in some light"... still not convinced one way or the other.
The carpenters stores shows equal yellow and white... the Lincoln Uni research analysts say there is some red ochre mixed in at that layer. Interesting, but at the end of the day who cares..? I am by inclination an accepter of science, so all my instincts are to believe the analysis but in this case I find myself doubting whether it passes the pub test.
Right now it looks pink in just about any light
 
Attached is an interesting video discussing the research and subsequent painting of the Victory in her new colours. I was very much in the yellow ochre camp but after watching the video I think I am now more supportive of the new colours.

 
Mine is yellow ochre, and I'm sticking with it. How many times has "science" been proven wrong? In a letter home, a sailor at Trafalgar wrote "The French are just like ours, black with yellow stripes," and "when the ports are opened, the hull has a checker look". Added to the evidence are many contemporary paintings by those who actually saw her, I'll take their word over any revised coloring. ( Painting by the renowned Turner, who said he "only painted what he saw").

View attachment 535550
That does look like natural ochre, very similar to that used on houses in Provence, if my memory serves me correctly.
 
( Painting by the renowned Turner, who said he "only painted what he saw").
I had no idea Turner was at the battle of Trafalgar :)
Survivors of Trafalgar who saw this painting when it was completed in 1824, 20 years after the battle were not happy at all. At least one critic explains how it is closer to a rendition of the painting The Raft of Medusa with the Victory thrown into the background.
Allan
 
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There are many conversations about yellow paint on Victory. Which of the below would be called yellow- one, some, all?? I don't think there will ever be a provable choice. The below are just a few that came up with a search on Google using one word, yellow.
Allan

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And same for yellow ochre. Pick your poison. There are dozens more from which to choose with just one search.
Allan

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As long as you are looking at only photos there is no way to determine the color of the ship in Portsmouth. You don’t know the camera settings and photos of the same part of the ship will differ depending on time of day, white balance, cloud conditions.

Looking at this video it does not look very pink.

 
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