Make a photo of your original mongraph somehow with an actual day (newspaper) and send it to ancre....
Planset review L'EGYPTIENNE - french 24-prd frigate - 1799" in scale 1:48 by Gerard Delacroix
OK gracias
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I know questions regarding the scale of this ship were discussed above, though I still have questions because I simply cannot reconcile the information. Wikipedia reports that the L'Forte class 24 pounder frigates were about 170 feet overall length. It lists the keel at 141 feet (unclear if the keel is meant to represent the hull or the gundeck length, but lets leave that aside for the moment). The L'Egyptienne is in this class and it's Wikipedia page lists similar lengths. At 1:48 scale, that should work out to an overall length of 108cm, not 166 (or even 129). The hull will be only 89.5cm. I note, however, that UWE has posted a scale drawing of the hull in 1:48 scale and his ruler would seem to peg it around 120cm (give or take).
There are only a couple of explanations for these discrepancies. The first is that Wikipedia is wrong, and that the overall length of the Forte class frigates is greater than 170 feet (or 141 feet at the keel). 170 feet is 51.8 meters. I note that Mr. Delacroix reported above that the length from figurehead to stern is 62 meters for the L'Egyptienne. That is a full 10 meters longer than what Wikipedia reports for the overall length of this ship (to say nothing of the keel length). He also notes that the French 24 pound frigates were as long as the 74 gun ships. The French 74's were around 55 meters overall, and the English ones were around 51-52 meters (as far as I can tell). The other explanation is that these plans are not at 1:48 but rather closer to something like 1:36.
I don't mean to whip this horse to death, but THIS is the monograph I want to purchase for my scratch build, and I want to make sure I understand the size of the model this is designed to produce. I am somewhat reassured by Uwe's post of the scale drawing, as no matter what can be said of the scale, plans to will produce a 120cm hull are exactly what I am looking for.
There are only a couple of explanations for these discrepancies. The first is that Wikipedia is wrong, and that the overall length of the Forte class frigates is greater than 170 feet (or 141 feet at the keel). 170 feet is 51.8 meters. I note that Mr. Delacroix reported above that the length from figurehead to stern is 62 meters for the L'Egyptienne. That is a full 10 meters longer than what Wikipedia reports for the overall length of this ship (to say nothing of the keel length). He also notes that the French 24 pound frigates were as long as the 74 gun ships. The French 74's were around 55 meters overall, and the English ones were around 51-52 meters (as far as I can tell). The other explanation is that these plans are not at 1:48 but rather closer to something like 1:36.
I don't mean to whip this horse to death, but THIS is the monograph I want to purchase for my scratch build, and I want to make sure I understand the size of the model this is designed to produce. I am somewhat reassured by Uwe's post of the scale drawing, as no matter what can be said of the scale, plans to will produce a 120cm hull are exactly what I am looking for.
I don't think there is anything we can tell you if you choose to not believe Uwe a well respected reviewer and model builder, Gerald Delacroix the author and Ancre the publisher. They do know the facts.
Wikipedia publishes the opinions of it's volunteers who are not required to qualify or substantiate their opinions. They certainly can not be relied upon for facts.
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I did not choose not to believe them. I was interested in an explanation of the discrepancy, perhaps even by those same two experts. Your explanation, that the lengths published in Wikipedia represent opinions and should be discounted is certainly one way to resolve the issue. That Wikipedia was simply wrong was expressly considered in my post - in fact, it was the first thing considered. In fact, it may very well be that Wikipedia is not wrong, but rather they are simply using a measurement of length that does not correspond to the distance Ancre is specifying (ie., their length corresponds to the "gundeck" while Ancre is referring to the figurehead to skiff at the stern distance. I am utterly new to this, and was looking to understand what I did not understand.
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I found a possible explanation, why the information in wikipedia could be wrong.
This is the data given on three decks about the L´Egyptienne
and they have used the data listed in
I have the book not with me, but at home I could take a look - nevertheless usually the data on threedecks are very accuratly summarized
The length of the Gundeck is mentioned here with 51,5141 meter or 169´8´´ which are more or less exactly the given data in wikipedia
British Fifth Rate frigate 'Egyptienne' (1801)
British Fifth Rate frigate 'Egyptienne' (1801). Dates of service, name changes, previous and next incarnations, dimensions, armament, commanders, officers and crewmen, actions, battles, sources
threedecks.org
so I think, that the author of the wikipedia article has mentioned here the correct length but an incorrect reference
Now the question if Winfields or Delacroix inforrmation could be wrong:
I say here that by 99,9999 % they are right, because it is realtively modern frigate
at this time all data were precisely documented in the contemporary listings, contract etc.
And also there are contemporary drawings, either in France from the original shipwrights, in addition with two models
and also by the english shipwrights, which made directly measurements and drawings after the capture of the ship
Here we have four contemporary drawings in the NMM
Collection Results | Royal Museums Greenwich
Explore seafaring history, timekeeping and astronomy, fine art and the world's largest maritime library and archive collection. Start your search today.
So all the measures of the length etc. can be checked and compared easily with these scale drawings
One other comparison
tonnage is 1.434 tons - both the same
length keel 141´ - check the same
beam 43´8´´ - check the same
depth 15´1´´ - check the same
only length wikipedia is mentioning "overall" and three decks "gundeck"
here is the only discrepancy !!!!
tonnage is 1.434 tons - both the same
length keel 141´ - check the same
beam 43´8´´ - check the same
depth 15´1´´ - check the same
only length wikipedia is mentioning "overall" and three decks "gundeck"
here is the only discrepancy !!!!
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Yes, I think this is the explanation. The length listed in Wikipedia is accurate, though the reference is wrong. The gundeck is 51.7 meters, but the figurehead to stern length is closer to 61 meters, which corresponds to the length listed in the Ancre monograph.
I did order the monograph yesterday. I am very excited to get this project underway. I think this is perhaps the best looking ship on the website. Just fantastic to look at.
I did order the monograph yesterday. I am very excited to get this project underway. I think this is perhaps the best looking ship on the website. Just fantastic to look at.
I am happy, that my small research was a little bit helping to make the final decision to order this great monograph
Not only that it is a beautiful ship, but also in my opinion one of the best quality planset and complete monograph available.
I would be very very happy to see once your project of the Egyptienne in a building log..... this would be highly interesting.
Especially the L´Egyptienne is also one of my favourites .... maybe once on my life I will give her a try
I was today in close direct contact with Gérard Delacroix, the author of the monograph, who is helping to clarify the problem with the length of the frigate L´Egyptienne
Gérard wrote to me in an e-mail these words today:
I read with interest the discussion on the length of L'Égyptienne and feel obliged to make some clarifications.
The length of this frigate is exactly 160 French feet (0.3248m) which gives an "official" length of 51.96 m. It should be noted that this length is, as for all French ships, taken between the bow and stern perpendiculars. The overall length is only indicative because during its career, a ship can be modified. For L'Égyptienne, it is 60.97 m. As for the length of the keel, it did not provide any useful information at the turn of the 19th century in France. This is why it no longer appears in the specifications since about 1730.
It should be pointed out that my monographs (and those of Jean Boudriot) are based on reliable and verified documents, crossing several undeniable sources. On the other hand, the writters of Wikipedia rely on more than secondary sources and when I see the anomalies in the articles on the navy, I am appalled. I do correct the French articles from time to time but there are so many errors that it would take an infinite amount of time.
Many Thanks Gérard for this clarification !
Gérard wrote to me in an e-mail these words today:
I read with interest the discussion on the length of L'Égyptienne and feel obliged to make some clarifications.
The length of this frigate is exactly 160 French feet (0.3248m) which gives an "official" length of 51.96 m. It should be noted that this length is, as for all French ships, taken between the bow and stern perpendiculars. The overall length is only indicative because during its career, a ship can be modified. For L'Égyptienne, it is 60.97 m. As for the length of the keel, it did not provide any useful information at the turn of the 19th century in France. This is why it no longer appears in the specifications since about 1730.
It should be pointed out that my monographs (and those of Jean Boudriot) are based on reliable and verified documents, crossing several undeniable sources. On the other hand, the writters of Wikipedia rely on more than secondary sources and when I see the anomalies in the articles on the navy, I am appalled. I do correct the French articles from time to time but there are so many errors that it would take an infinite amount of time.
Many Thanks Gérard for this clarification !
Hallo @Plimpington
we wish you all the BEST and a HAPPY BIRTHDAY
How is your project with the Egyptienne going? Did you start the building?
Would be great to see .....