YES DAE YOU CAN DO IT BUT I CAN NOT, WITHOUT A JIG I AM A NO, NO ON THIS ONE. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE ALL DON
Matthew 1497 1:48 scale by Mike 41 [COMPLETED BUILD]
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not every build or project is good for everyone
trying to use a jig just might add more problems than it will fix don't know at this stage of the design.
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lets look at the problem with the jig
sorry for the blurred images but it gets the point across
first image the frames are .222 and we have 4 frames and 3 spaces add up to 1.254 and that is how the jig is drawn in CAD .222 frame .222 space
now look where the frames join as a solid belt of timber it measures 1.561 just 4 frames and 3 spaces it gained .007 so what is going one here is adding glue between the frames, how tight you clamp the frames, you have to have zero tolerance in the milled wood the frames at the belt will vary it is a floating number the jig is a set dimension. it is hard to predict what the final length will be from the first to the last frame.
if you don't use a jig this is not a problem
so how to you make a jig that can either expand or contract depending on the builder?
sorry for the blurred images but it gets the point across
first image the frames are .222 and we have 4 frames and 3 spaces add up to 1.254 and that is how the jig is drawn in CAD .222 frame .222 space
now look where the frames join as a solid belt of timber it measures 1.561 just 4 frames and 3 spaces it gained .007 so what is going one here is adding glue between the frames, how tight you clamp the frames, you have to have zero tolerance in the milled wood the frames at the belt will vary it is a floating number the jig is a set dimension. it is hard to predict what the final length will be from the first to the last frame.
if you don't use a jig this is not a problem
so how to you make a jig that can either expand or contract depending on the builder?
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the measurements are a creeping thousandth from frame to space and frame
the building of the hull is not static it is dynamic it is moving according to the hand of the builder
the building of the hull is not static it is dynamic it is moving according to the hand of the builder
... and the humidity in the workshop...
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oh ! i did not consider that variable if you stop work and go back to the build on a rainy day or a hot day the wood expands and shrinks.
jigs will work in a framed hull with sistered (double frames) then a space and another frame that space between the frames acts like a free space you will never see a creeping thousandth between frames. In this case each frame is set on the keel and the top timbers in the jig this does not depend on frame to frame like single timbered frames.
this build will work in a gantry type set up it is more free form your not trying to fit everything within a set jig.
so Don i hope i explained the issues with a jig with this particular build. a gantry moves with the build a jig does not.
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Dave, in my opinion a jig will work fine also for this kind of models.
You can handle each frame as double frame. After building you can glue this on the keel and if you like together.
If you have a laser cutter or a mill you can also think on a special jig, where you can glue the frames together without a keel. After glueing all frames together you must remove for example a part at the top of the frames which you need for the adjustment. NMBrook uses this kind of jig for his model.
If you glue all frames together and use the correct thicknes for the frames your model will be a little bit to long. The glue needs always 1/10mm space.
You can handle each frame as double frame. After building you can glue this on the keel and if you like together.
If you have a laser cutter or a mill you can also think on a special jig, where you can glue the frames together without a keel. After glueing all frames together you must remove for example a part at the top of the frames which you need for the adjustment. NMBrook uses this kind of jig for his model.
If you glue all frames together and use the correct thicknes for the frames your model will be a little bit to long. The glue needs always 1/10mm space.
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NMBrook uses this kind of jig for his model.
do you have an example i can see
do you have an example i can see
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Mike is building the model and this is his build log
my involvement of this is to take part in the design of a build project for Ships of Scale based on Mikes work.
There are issuers we have to try out and consider, we have looked into several framing styles and ways to build.
we do know the Matthew was framed like this
this type of framing creates a solid belt of timber between the floorheads and the first futtocks, like this
here is what i did
starting with Mikes frame drawing
i broke down the frame parts and pasted them on a sheet, This part of the build will require a builder to cut and finish a lot of pieces so we decided to laser cut the frame parts. Now a builder can focus more about the build and not so much with fabrication of parts.
this is what i got
taking the frame pattern i started with the floor and top timbers
using a couple weights to hold the top timbers to the pattern and placing the floor in its location i glued on the 1st futtocks.
once i had a complete frame assembly i took the next floor and cut the pattern at the location of the 1st futtocks
it was easy to just glue the second floor to the frame assembly
using square blocks against the top timber top and side to locate the next top timber
it was easy to locate and glue the next top timber in place.
it was no problem to assemble the hull by just stacking frame parts. The idea here is to build sections of the hull by stacking, then assemble the sections along the keel.
there is no jig involved with this method however i did not build a complete hull so i do not know what might happen at the bow and stern where the frames change shape and if it is possible to accurately line up all the parts by hand.
Mike idea was building the hull in a gantry setup where assembled frames were set on the keel as they were built. Again no jig required.
At this point in the project there is nothing final
my involvement of this is to take part in the design of a build project for Ships of Scale based on Mikes work.
There are issuers we have to try out and consider, we have looked into several framing styles and ways to build.
we do know the Matthew was framed like this
this type of framing creates a solid belt of timber between the floorheads and the first futtocks, like this
here is what i did
starting with Mikes frame drawing
i broke down the frame parts and pasted them on a sheet, This part of the build will require a builder to cut and finish a lot of pieces so we decided to laser cut the frame parts. Now a builder can focus more about the build and not so much with fabrication of parts.
this is what i got
taking the frame pattern i started with the floor and top timbers
using a couple weights to hold the top timbers to the pattern and placing the floor in its location i glued on the 1st futtocks.
once i had a complete frame assembly i took the next floor and cut the pattern at the location of the 1st futtocks
it was easy to just glue the second floor to the frame assembly
using square blocks against the top timber top and side to locate the next top timber
it was easy to locate and glue the next top timber in place.
it was no problem to assemble the hull by just stacking frame parts. The idea here is to build sections of the hull by stacking, then assemble the sections along the keel.
there is no jig involved with this method however i did not build a complete hull so i do not know what might happen at the bow and stern where the frames change shape and if it is possible to accurately line up all the parts by hand.
Mike idea was building the hull in a gantry setup where assembled frames were set on the keel as they were built. Again no jig required.
At this point in the project there is nothing final
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down deep in the forum behind closed doors is the think tank and test shop this is really the PM personal message part of the forum.
this is where Mike and I are talking along with staff members.
i have been building since the early 1960s and as Don posted ya you can do it but what about everyone else? Mike i would say is in the master class of designers and builders and i am sure he can build most anything.
Don does have a point to a certain point.
So here is where we are and asking what does everyone else think
here are the two ideas on the drawing board
the frames are made up of 1/8 thick stock together making up a 1/4 inch frame
yellow arrow is the 1/8 framing material
green arrow is the total width of a frame
black arrow is center to center
drawing one idea is to place frames on a 3/8 center which separated the frames. This can be built in a jig because each frame stands alone. The issue with this it is a made up stylized framing and not historically correct
drawing 2 is placing the frames on 1/4 centers this creates a solid wall of timbering where the frame parts overlap. This method really can not be built in a jig well maybe but more difficult to pull off than drawing one. This is the correct historical method called shell first or whole molding. The floors are set in place and the hull planked to the floorheads then the next frame part is wedged between the floorheads and planking continues. That is not how the model will be built but it represents true framing
historical framing looks like this
now to ask the membership
would you rather
1 build a model with made up stylized framing that can be done in a jig?
2 build a historically correct unique framing that is rarely seen in model ship building by another method other than a typical jig?
i went over the problems that a solid belt of timbering might create in another post if built in a jig.
the philosophy of the build
if you think you can not build a project like because there is no jig then move on and pick something else you can build. If you want to jump into something different and maybe you can or maybe you can not that is what a build project is for. Challenge yourself.
comments are welcome pro and con
this is where Mike and I are talking along with staff members.
i have been building since the early 1960s and as Don posted ya you can do it but what about everyone else? Mike i would say is in the master class of designers and builders and i am sure he can build most anything.
Don does have a point to a certain point.
So here is where we are and asking what does everyone else think
here are the two ideas on the drawing board
the frames are made up of 1/8 thick stock together making up a 1/4 inch frame
yellow arrow is the 1/8 framing material
green arrow is the total width of a frame
black arrow is center to center
drawing one idea is to place frames on a 3/8 center which separated the frames. This can be built in a jig because each frame stands alone. The issue with this it is a made up stylized framing and not historically correct
drawing 2 is placing the frames on 1/4 centers this creates a solid wall of timbering where the frame parts overlap. This method really can not be built in a jig well maybe but more difficult to pull off than drawing one. This is the correct historical method called shell first or whole molding. The floors are set in place and the hull planked to the floorheads then the next frame part is wedged between the floorheads and planking continues. That is not how the model will be built but it represents true framing
historical framing looks like this
now to ask the membership
would you rather
1 build a model with made up stylized framing that can be done in a jig?
2 build a historically correct unique framing that is rarely seen in model ship building by another method other than a typical jig?
i went over the problems that a solid belt of timbering might create in another post if built in a jig.
the philosophy of the build
if you think you can not build a project like because there is no jig then move on and pick something else you can build. If you want to jump into something different and maybe you can or maybe you can not that is what a build project is for. Challenge yourself.
comments are welcome pro and con
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Hello Dave,
here is the link which shows Nigels method. I know that his frameing is different, but the method should also work for your frameing of the Matthew. I would add 2 threaded rod to have always the same position of the frames.
I hope you understand what I mean. It's a little bit difficult to descirbe with my not so good English.
I personally would prefer method 2. This method I like to use myself for a frigate of the 1719 establishment in the future.
here is the link which shows Nigels method. I know that his frameing is different, but the method should also work for your frameing of the Matthew. I would add 2 threaded rod to have always the same position of the frames.
I hope you understand what I mean. It's a little bit difficult to descirbe with my not so good English.
I personally would prefer method 2. This method I like to use myself for a frigate of the 1719 establishment in the future.
All
My jig is just an enhanced version of the stacking principle with three points of reference, the keel and the ears up top.I have an advantage in that on the framing of Saint Philippe,I can adjust the thickness of the fillers to suit maintain the correct frame positions.The centreline of the sistered frames is checked to a square reference face at the end of my jig as each one is fitted.
Kind Regards
Nigel
My jig is just an enhanced version of the stacking principle with three points of reference, the keel and the ears up top.I have an advantage in that on the framing of Saint Philippe,I can adjust the thickness of the fillers to suit maintain the correct frame positions.The centreline of the sistered frames is checked to a square reference face at the end of my jig as each one is fitted.
Kind Regards
Nigel
OK MY THOUGHTS FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH I PREFER THE HISTORICALLY CORRECT VERSION BUT HAVE NOT GOT THE SKILLS TO DO IT WITHOUT HAVE TRIED AND TRIED PROBLEM MOSTLY WILEANING SID TO SIDE PORT TO STAR BBOARD COULD IT NOT BE POSSIBLE TO DO THE JIGS IN PARTS LET SAY A JIG FIR THE FLOOR, AND THEN THE NEXT ETC I PROBALLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT HERE BUT THERE IT IS. GOD BLESS ALL STAY SAFE DON
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ok Don good choice
we have to make a jig that moves with the build, it is the solid belt of timbering that rules the framing from stem to stern
looking into a full proof gantry system that can be reused for any hull
we have to make a jig that moves with the build, it is the solid belt of timbering that rules the framing from stem to stern
looking into a full proof gantry system that can be reused for any hull
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This is a link to the gantry system I use.
Building Board Gantry Type
Some of the advantages of the gantry type of building board are: 1. Re-usability 2. Assess 3. Accuracy 4. Ease of use 1. Re-usability After you have finished a model and want to start a new one all you must do is tape down the new framing plan and change the scales if...
shipsofscale.com
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went back are studied your build log from the start.
what i did with the Matthew was a simplified version of your method of stacking but the general idea is the same.
what is rumbling around in my head is to build the midship frame to the drawing then stack frames 1 2 3 4 next build frame 5 to the drawing and stack 6 7 8 9 build frame 10 to the drawing and so on and so forth. Frames midship , 5 , 10 , 13 are acting as control frames. So you do not start with midship and build to the stern in one continuous build. If there is an error it would stop at the next control frame rather than accumulate down the entire hull.
midship 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
OK I AM GOING TO LET YOU CATCH UP TO ME I HAVE ONE ON THE 29TH, JUST HAVE A GREAT ONE, HAPPINESS AND HEALTH MIKE. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE YOU AND YOURS AND CHRISTS PEACE BE WITH YOU DON
Happy Birthday, Mike!!! The best wishes and many more years of a happy and healthy life! 