Model building inaccuracies

[Jimsky]

Everything that is published is exposed to criticism and I have learned a lot from criticism.
If someone gets upset by well-intentioned, constructive criticism, I simply stop paying attention.

I completely disagree with your comment that everything that is published is exposed to criticism! That simply means that in every work you are looking to judge whether it deserves criticism from you. If you learn from critiques - that's fine, but if I may suggest you, there are many other ways to learn, not just from critiques and criticisms.

if someone gets upset by well-intentioned, constructive criticism, I simply stop paying attention.

It is your choice what to pay attention to, but have you ever thought that by giving even constructive critiques you may offend someone? Think about it. What about a person who is not capable of it the way you would think is correct? What about abilities, skills, or even desire?

On your models, you are willing to do the way you want or can, but if a person doesn't ask for suggestions or critiques, I don't think it is appropriate.

 

[James Frost]

I allow myself to respond and add my opinion to this forum. Frankly what can it do or bother you if a model maker does what he wants?. We are not representatives of a museum, which is rigorous! We are a group of people who enjoy themselves with their hobbies and who are kind enough to show you their work. So just or not, we don’t care and it’s none of your business. Everyone can do what they want and most importantly, what they can. We do not all have the possibility to make perfectly fair models, for lack of means or information. So rejoice in belonging to this community and learn from others what they offer you or what you will find there. Personally I had posted my work of construction of the Amerigo Vespucci of Panart to 1/84 and a member took the liberty of criticizing me on a detail. I did not ask him for his opinion. I was very upset and decided not to publish anything any more. Everyone lost. I do not publish my photos to ask the opinion of others, but just to show with pride what I am modestly capable of. If I have to be criticized then I go somewhere else because what right can you criticize? Especially since the one who gave me his opinion without me asking him, was wrong and told me mistakes. Then he should have kept quiet instead of being ridiculous. Let us be proud of our work and let us be aware that there are still spaces for dialogue and freedom in a world that already lacks much.

Hoy, spot on correct Sir, well said. I never criticize other people's model work. We do what we can with what we have and what we know. I would love to see your work. I have not even attempted to build the Amerigo Vespucci because it is so complex... and I build model ships for a living!!! Take care mate, we are proud of your work and dedication. Thank you.

 

[Hoss6262]

... I would be cautious about giving suggestions without actually someone asking for one...

Jim's statement says it all.

Unless the modeler has explicitly stated what their project's objective is, we have no idea without making many assumptions and therefore have no context from which to make comments or critiques. I try and err on the side of caution and not volunteer advise/critiques.

As stated, and pretty much obvious, there is a wide range of skill levels in this hobby and on this site. I do take the time to acknowledge the work effort and the high quality construction. With that said, my Mother had a wonderful mantra, "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all."

On the other side of it, if a modeler asks for input, I'm happy to help, if I can. For me, I try to be conscious of how I type/say things, using the correct context and careful use of adjectives. (How would I feel if someone said that to me?)

It's not rocket science. It's civility...

Of course, this is only my perspective.

 

[Jimsky]

Of course, this is only my perspective.

I think it is the perspective of many of us, members of SOS. I would say it is our philosophy, We are eager to help if we can.

Offering help isn't necessarily critique! It usually a broad range of things where critiques might be the last resort (if any at all), IMHO

 

[Vfordyce]

We are going in circles, Dave. Does the modeler have to know the difference? What is the intent of the modeler to build models? Does he/she want to present a historically accurate model or does he just want to build something for fun?

But what is wrong with building your model from another model? Sometimes the contemporary model is the only source of information to build. How can you go about historically accurate representation in such cases?

Novices rarely build the model from scratch, unless it is a skilled individual with previous experience in woodworking and metalsmithing. They most likely will use a kit. Can you build an authentically correct model from the kit without bashing?

BTW, what is authentically correct? Is there such a term?


historically accurate was not my point in using another model as a reference.

for example you have a builder struggling with planking a hull and looking through build logs or the gallery of finished models to see how other builders planked a hull.

maybe a novice builder did not know you have to bevel the edges of the bulkheads and ends up with this, a hard edge. There is no garboard on this model so how does a novice know he has to shape a garboard when using this as an example.

View attachment 450570

a hard edge because filler blocks were not used, and the planking is lying flat between bulkheads and the planking is not running to the stem.

View attachment 450571

is this a proper example of planking a hull? how would a first time builder know if it is right or wrong? if it it posted "nice job"

View attachment 450572

you know this is not going to work out there is far too much open space midship and nothing at the bow

View attachment 450573
so you end up with this

View attachment 450574

looks like this builder had no idea how to fit a garboard plank and if there are models that are planked wrong a novice will struggle by looking at these examples.

View attachment 450575

at the bow one example is wrong and one is right

View attachment 450576

View attachment 450577

you can tell a builder heck do it your way and whatever you do just get planks on the hull it does not matter just struggle with it until the hull is planked.

View attachment 450578


so my point is there are rules and methods for building and if you know the rules and methods the job becomes easier rather than struggling with examples of what not to do. Maybe it is better in the long run to use a model as a reference built by someone who actually knows what they are doing. Using examples that are wrong is a blind novice leading the blind.
Historical accuracy has nothing to do with proper building methods and taking the struggle out of the build

so back to the original do this and not that or point out to a builder what is going wrong and what will happen if you continue doing it your way rather than the right way. I understand builders just having fun building something but that is not the point, the point is calling an error an error on forums used by others.

At least one guy used a green mat!

 

[DerekC62]

Each modeler is different and there is no "right way" of doing things.

You (and I) prefer to be as accurate as possible with our projects.

Others enjoy the hobby for other reasons that we may not share.

Unless the modeler asks for a critique, I would let sleeping dogs lie. Discretion is the better part of valor.

 

[Vfordyce]

I think the initial post was about to pointing out the historical inaccuracies, like stuff should be there or wrong count of rivet. I’m here to learn how to do stuff better and in the end properly. I think we need to encourage novices to stay in the hobby. One of the way is saying “good job”. And you welcome to follow it with :”but….” I think everyone will appreciated good advice backed up with pictures and etc. We all would be ok to receive some harsh stick if there is a carrot on the other end

Good job!

 

[3L120]

... I would be cautious about giving suggestions without actually someone asking for one...

Most of us are building models and only some building copies of the original ships, planes... etc. If you treat our hobby as art, you can assume that scale modeler has a representation view on certain aspects and how the model should look. Is there something wrong with that? I don't think so.

If the builder specifically asks about the proper way to build this or that, here is the place to point mistakes, also it is a very thin edge, as to how and when you may respond. If you criticize after the build is completed, it is a bad idea!

I would always consider that all of us have different skills and experience. What may be for you is obvious and easy to build, but for others could be a challenge.

At the end of the day, we are building\assembling the models the way our skillset permits. For most of us, it is just a hobby, though. What is most importantly, we have fun! If we don't - why spend hours, months, years?

I think a PM to the builder, with a gentle correction of the most obvious error and a reference would suffice. If he/she checks the reference, the other errors will be seen and can be corrected if the builder wants too.

 

[Vfordyce]

In my case, I am currently building the MS Constitution. There are already two great build logs for this ship, so I wonder what's the point of posting mine? I might create one when I get to the part where I am adding sails to the ship. That would be something new to show.

I always learn something new from new posts of the same thing. Each modeler adds a new twist. dockattner does great at painting and sanding. Darivs Architectus does great at building gun decks that will be hidden and drop planks. Anna is super at planking. I do great at being a permanoob. We all have our strengths.

 

[James Frost]

... I would be cautious about giving suggestions without actually someone asking for one...

Jim's statement says it all.

Unless the modeler has explicitly stated what their project's objective is, we have no idea without making many assumptions and therefore have no context from which to make comments or critiques. I try and err on the side of caution and not volunteer advise/critiques.

As stated, and pretty much obvious, there is a wide range of skill levels in this hobby and on this site. I do take the time to acknowledge the work effort and the high quality construction. With that said, my Mother had a wonderful mantra, "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all."

On the other side of it, if a modeler asks for input, I'm happy to help, if I can. For me, I try to be conscious of how I type/say things, using the correct context and careful use of adjectives. (How would I feel if someone said that to me?)

It's not rocket science. It's civility...

Of course, this

I allow myself to respond and add my opinion to this forum. Frankly what can it do or bother you if a model maker does what he wants?. We are not representatives of a museum, which is rigorous! We are a group of people who enjoy themselves with their hobbies and who are kind enough to show you their work. So just or not, we don’t care and it’s none of your business. Everyone can do what they want and most importantly, what they can. We do not all have the possibility to make perfectly fair models, for lack of means or information. So rejoice in belonging to this community and learn from others what they offer you or what you will find there. Personally I had posted my work of construction of the Amerigo Vespucci of Panart to 1/84 and a member took the liberty of criticizing me on a detail. I did not ask him for his opinion. I was very upset and decided not to publish anything any more. Everyone lost. I do not publish my photos to ask the opinion of others, but just to show with pride what I am modestly capable of. If I have to be criticized then I go somewhere else because what right can you criticize? Especially since the one who gave me his opinion without me asking him, was wrong and told me mistakes. Then he should have kept quiet instead of being ridiculous. Let us be proud of our work and let us be aware that there are still spaces for dialogue and freedom in a world that already lacks much.

Hoy, another wonderful comment. Well said Sir. I don't criticize other model builders work. They/we do the best we can with what we have and what we know. Even if I am asked for my opinion I would say, "I could be wrong but I think it was done this way or this method." Always be polite and don't act like you're the original designer of the ship. Reccomend a book or a video that might guide them. Speaking of recommending a book, may I recommend (for sailing ships) 'Historic Ship Models' by Wolfram Zu Mondfeld. I dont start a build without checking with this book. How diffrent counties built their ships in diffrent years. This book stays on my bench.
The Amerigo Vespucci! Wow! I would love to see your work. In my opinion, I believe that is the most complex, most detailed and most difficult ship to build. For now I have no desire to take on that ship... and I build model ships for a living!!! Over 30 years!!
Thank you for your spot on correct comment and dedication.

 

[Llaut Mallorquin]

Hello
I haven't posted almost any criticism in this forum, because I haven't been in it for long and I don't know almost anyone, but I see that the majority opinion is only to criticize at the request of the person showing their boat.
, received the message
All the best











Sugerencias

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[Llaut Mallorquin]

Perhaps the word criticism, , has been interpreted as always expressing the bad.
It is not like that, at least when I see a good model I do not refrain from expressing my praise and even my enthusiasm.
For me, criticism can be both positive, pointing out successes, and constructive, pointing out errors, and I have learned a lot from criticizing my models.
But there are always those who do not like to receive news of what is done poorly, but are delighted with praise.

 

[Don Case]

Maybe something like I just added to my signature would help.

 

[P-man]

This has been an interesting subject and one that I believe depends on the intent of the builder. If the intent is to build a thoroughly accurate model and the builder is looking for help with research or information then they will ask for it At that point the builder is looking to learn from the members. If they are just building and looking to show their work then nit picking will keep them from sharing their work which goes against the ethos of the website. I have built models that were done to be accurate and some that are part of Bob’s world where I have put on inaccurate parts because they looked great. I will say that there are many times where the builder is looking for more than a comment that says great work. I always want help with hints about how to better my skills If comments can help the builder improve then I would welcome them especially if the person making the comments continues the dialogue and doesn’t make a one time comment that makes the builder feel inadequate

 

[Jimsky]

It is not like that, at least when I see a good model I do not refrain from expressing my praise and even my enthusiasm.

Let me ask you what are the criteria/s for a good model. How can you determine if the model fits in the phrase 'Good Model'?

I think you are missing the point. What could be for you is a 'good model' for some might be very bad, and for others, it might be awesome. We have different skills, we have different abilities, and goals of how the model should be. We even treat the work differently: for some, this is a job, but for the majority of us - it is just a hobby. We are all different! You cannot simply treat all workmanship the same, it is wrong.

 

[WilliamM]

Reality Check. Who is really going to view your model, Most likely your family and close friends. Unless you are building with high level competition in mind, No one will question the results of your completed model. You will enjoy the reactions of the people you meet and any mistakes or intentional artistic license employed are never considered.

I admit that I am a stickler for historic accuracy in my models, and I have asked here about the accuracies of several kits. But I have never applied my sense of accuracy to anyone else; it simply matters to me. That might have something to do with my second career having been a history teacher. The desire for accuracy comes with that territory. I was most emphatically told, "Build what you love and love what you build!". That shut me up.

 

[seadeep]

Being still somewhat new to this web site, can someone give me some advice as to how react to a modeler's post showing obvious inaccuracies, historic, construction, equipment, ect., in either or both the progress of the build or in the finished product? I recently saw, in another similar site, an otherwise nice model of an US Aegis class destroyer on which the builder added equipment that the ship he was modeling never had. It would appear the builder put the model together straight out of the box without doing any research (books, photos, etc.) on the ship he was constructing first. He just installed everything in the kit regardless. Am I making too much out of this? Surely model building is about the enjoyment of the process. I find that the research prior to and during the building of a model enhances the enjoyment of building a model and getting the finished product as close to depicting the original be it airplane, jet or ship. I suppose there are "modelers" for whom that part of the build is not as important as it is to me and others. I will continue to research the HMS VICTORY (2nd model) and the VASA I am building and hope to resume posting progress on the two models in the build logs I started a while back.

First and foremost, you need to ascertain if the builder just wants to complete the kit they purchased as it was provided by the manufacturer, or if they're a purist seeking a historically accurate representation of the ship. If it's the latter, your feedback would likely be appreciated. If its the former, you're being an annoyance.

If being historically accurate is what floats your boat (pun intended), then knock yourself out with research and the satisfaction that what you've created is as authentically accurate as you can possibly achieve. For me personally, that's not my quest. I don't think there's anything right or wrong about either preference, as it's simply that. A preference. Simply understand your audience and respect their position, as you would expect them to respect yours.

I recognize that response may come off a a bit "preachy", but its not intended as such. I'm simply stating how I perceive the situation.

 

[seadeep]

Some truly want to learn and are capable others either don’t really want to learn or aren’t capable of doing better. There are those who don’t have the skill or patience to do it. It’s that simple and it’s all fine.

IMHO, your comment comes off as more than a bit elitist, as you infer that anyone who chooses not to study and learn are incapable of actually learning or displaying patience. That's pretty pompous. Your goals are not my goals, nor do they need to be. The passion that drives your work is not the passion that fuels my work. Comments that target and diminish self worth of others are why many shy away from sharing any of their efforts with others, and that's a shame. I personally preface my posts of completed projects and build log with the clear declaration that historical accuracy, or even adherence to the kit manufacturer's directions is not something I'm particularly interested in. I note where I've gone off the path, where I've made what I consider to be mistakes, and what I've done to address them... if I address them. Ultimately, I build ship kits as a recreational and (most of the time) relaxing hobby. Everyone who sees my completed projects in person has zero understanding of whether they're "accurate" or "correct". What they see and appreciate is a nicely completed model and good woodworking skill applied to a small scale project. Vive la difference, n'est-ce pas?

 

[WilliamM]

I do have a question for discussion. What do we mean by the term "accuracy"? Afterall, ships undergo refits and some alterations to their details and shapes. Take the USS Constitution for example. Building her as she was built was different than her appearance during the War of 1812. This, in turn, is different than her appearance in the 1830s with the Jackson figurehead, which differs from her appearance in the 1870s, at the turn of the 20th century (with the schoolhouse built over her spar deck, different again in her appearance after her 1924 refit, and her several refits of the 1990s through today. I would rather find her appearance as built with the Hercules figurehead or with the eagle one. Finally, all figureheads were dispensed with, giving way to the billethead of today. Builders should specify a given period of time in which they label their ships if one is considering "accuracy".

Bill

 

[RDN1954]

A very interesting topic indeed and quite a few statements to think about.
After spending about two and a half year on this forum I've seen a few responses to build logs and participated in some discussions about historical accuracy, free interpretation, artistic license, etc.
Having build logs on this forum, I have also been subject to criticism, sometimes uninvited or unwelcome and sometimes with improving my build in mind. Funnily enough though quite a few of these remarks and yes, also the uninvited and unwelcome ones, found their way in my build. Did it hurt: yes, sometimes it did. Was I able to improve thanks to these comments: yes.

There is no such thing as historical correct or accurate, we may or may not have drawings, sketches, specifications or bills of material, but that does not prove any ship was build to exactly that configuration.
Some are (scratch) building, based on shipwrecks found somewhere in the world. There's an awful lot to learn from these builds, but are they historical accurate? I haphazard to guess no, probably not, at least we don't have sufficient evidence to substantiate such a statement. At best we can say that it is our interpretation of the (incomplete) evidence we have.
For me the main point of modeling is to enjoy myself with some research, plan the build, come up with solutions on how to produce parts and how to aassemble them and once completed, enjoy the end result.
That's not for all builders/modelers, some build straight out of the box; no issue, some prefer scratch build, again, no issue, others strife for historic a accuracy and perform extensive research; I'm all for it, plus I have an opportunity to learn and expand my knowledge.
For me the most important point is that we respect one another and do not knowingly criticize and possibly hurt other people's efforts in building their model. The end result may or may not be to my liking, but that's irrelevant.

Y'all enjoy your weekend.