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I said....pardon? Looks to me like uncchains tossed a lit match in the cardboard bin and kept on walking. Four pages of replies later and it's still the only post he made?... Oh well, back to the workbench.
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Oh, I see your anchor line has never hit the water. I knew I would recognize the problem. You should move the paint can over and give her a dunk. I, on the other hand, love the history of ships. If we want total accuracy, most of our ships would include the ocean floor. As for mistakes, no one I know can tell the difference if a line is tied to the wrong belaying pin. I keep my friends close and my enemy's closer... (The Godfather, plagiarism). I snipped a line from the "jeers" bye accident and thought how I do I fix this without a huge hassle? Pondering, I figured if I were at sea and somehow this happened, (such as enemy fire) I would rig a new block and tie her down. No one but me knows the mistake. I just was trying to finish the deck planking on the gun deck and noticed a glued plank from yesterday was narrow at one end. Now I have gap there. What to do? Quick thought, throw rug for the dance floor. Called the Duchess of Essex, got one on order, all is good.
Beauty is only skin deep, and we continue the journey.
Damn nice ship you have there.... Victory to us all.
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I can relate. I am often happy to display my results which often as not receive praise, but my process, much like making sausage and legislation, is often less than pretty or something I necessarily want to share (as I am discovering).
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Once again, Jim, great point. This point is subjective at best.
Bad analogies to follow:
To some people I am POOR, to others I am RICH.
To some people I am INTELLIGENT to others I'm NOT
To some people I'm OLD, to others, I'm YOUNG. (although the % of older people keeps shrinking
)To some modelers I'm skilled to others not so much.
I believe John Wesley said, "Judge yourself rigorously, and others graciously." A wise man indeed.
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Sausage and legislation. Damn good breakfast. I found the legislation rather bland and corrupt. Had to spice it up a bit. Threw in a couple lawyers and the outcome stirred my bones. The garboard strake is confusing my brain. The point of contact at the bow is where... does it fit in the rabbet?I can relate. I am often happy to display my results which often as not receive praise, but my process, much like making sausage and legislation, is often less than pretty or something I necessarily want to share (as I am discovering).
I cannot agree more! For example, I've been in discussions about specific ships that include whether or not the ship had round or square sterns or whether or not the masts were a certain height. These are possibly important points that cannot be proven either way.
Bill
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I've come late to this thread but I've read all the posts because they show some interesting characteristics about what happens in online forums in general and this site as well.
I started modelling in the days before the internet and I didn't know anyone else who was doing it and had no one to ask when I had questions. I was on my own, trying to make my work look like the picture on the box. Falling short on that objective didn't put me off and I've kept on.
What I've learned is that I have a set of skills that enable me to do some things well but not others. As Dirty Harry said, "A good man's got to know his limitations."
If someone looked at all my ships with a critical eye, they could see what I do well and what I'm not so good at and, frankly, some things that I just can't be bothered with so I don't do (e.g., footropes).
If I spent all my time fussing about the stuff I can't get right and don't enjoy, it would cease to be a hobby and become what I do modelling to get away from--a job.
On sites like this where people post questions and pictures, people with a wide variety of skills and experience can respond. What may look like crap to one person may look aspirational to someone else. And people have different motivations for posting. This shouldn't be a site where people post anything and expect the rest of us to rave about their craftsmanship, but it also shouldn't be a place where people express personal opinions that can cause someone to have second thoughts about whether they should even be doing modelling.
I come here for one reason--to ask questions and learn from other members. It shouldn't be a d**k measuring contest.
I started modelling in the days before the internet and I didn't know anyone else who was doing it and had no one to ask when I had questions. I was on my own, trying to make my work look like the picture on the box. Falling short on that objective didn't put me off and I've kept on.
What I've learned is that I have a set of skills that enable me to do some things well but not others. As Dirty Harry said, "A good man's got to know his limitations."
If someone looked at all my ships with a critical eye, they could see what I do well and what I'm not so good at and, frankly, some things that I just can't be bothered with so I don't do (e.g., footropes).
If I spent all my time fussing about the stuff I can't get right and don't enjoy, it would cease to be a hobby and become what I do modelling to get away from--a job.
On sites like this where people post questions and pictures, people with a wide variety of skills and experience can respond. What may look like crap to one person may look aspirational to someone else. And people have different motivations for posting. This shouldn't be a site where people post anything and expect the rest of us to rave about their craftsmanship, but it also shouldn't be a place where people express personal opinions that can cause someone to have second thoughts about whether they should even be doing modelling.
I come here for one reason--to ask questions and learn from other members. It shouldn't be a d**k measuring contest.
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As per John Wesley ...and the church said "Amen!"Once again, Jim, great point. This point is subjective at best.
Bad analogies to follow:
To some people I am POOR, to others I am RICH.
To some people I am INTELLIGENT to others I'm NOT
To some people I'm OLD, to others, I'm YOUNG. (although the % of older people keeps shrinking
To some modelers I'm skilled to others not so much.
I believe John Wesley said, "Judge yourself rigorously, and others graciously." A wise man indeed.
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Let’s have a show of hands out there. How many model builders are there who will give up model building if they can't duplicate the exact construction of a ship in their next project? It’s ridiculous that anyone should blame us for not doing something that can’t be done. Should we be ashamed for simply building a beautiful ship model and perhaps “peppering” the hull with treenails?
Why do people build ship models? There is only one that really suits me and, I suspect, the great majority of us. I like to create a thing of beauty with my own hands that I can view with satisfaction when it is finished. I’m not ashamed if it doesn’t duplicate the exact construction of the original ship. I’m not concerned about educating the general public who couldn’t care less, so it doesn’t matter whether or not it goes to a museum.
Harold Maxwell Hahn
i am working on a project now and i was thinking of a build log titled How to build From Semi-Scratch
the idea is to create a semi-kit with the very basic pieces and parts which would require more than glue part A to part B, this requires some skill in accurate cutting, shaping and fitting and understanding the construction of a stern.
i started with drawings and from those drawings built the first prototype, i was sure they were right, but building from those drawings it turned out a total mess, so bad i ripped it apart used those parts as a template and started over with the drawings and built a second prototype it is still wrong and i sit here thinking now what went wrong, why and how to make it right?
now i am thinking to start the build log and show the real process and all the mistakes and all the creative ways to fix it. Problems you don't see in the beginning that pop up later in the build, so you have to back track. or how one little error adds up to a total screw up
maybe the title should be
all the trials and tribulations of building with no instructions, no parts, no drawings all you have is a concept that you have to make it work.
but that is my gig i love the creative process.
Why do people build ship models? There is only one that really suits me and, I suspect, the great majority of us. I like to create a thing of beauty with my own hands that I can view with satisfaction when it is finished. I’m not ashamed if it doesn’t duplicate the exact construction of the original ship. I’m not concerned about educating the general public who couldn’t care less, so it doesn’t matter whether or not it goes to a museum.
Harold Maxwell Hahn
i am working on a project now and i was thinking of a build log titled How to build From Semi-Scratch
the idea is to create a semi-kit with the very basic pieces and parts which would require more than glue part A to part B, this requires some skill in accurate cutting, shaping and fitting and understanding the construction of a stern.
i started with drawings and from those drawings built the first prototype, i was sure they were right, but building from those drawings it turned out a total mess, so bad i ripped it apart used those parts as a template and started over with the drawings and built a second prototype it is still wrong and i sit here thinking now what went wrong, why and how to make it right?
now i am thinking to start the build log and show the real process and all the mistakes and all the creative ways to fix it. Problems you don't see in the beginning that pop up later in the build, so you have to back track. or how one little error adds up to a total screw up
maybe the title should be
all the trials and tribulations of building with no instructions, no parts, no drawings all you have is a concept that you have to make it work.
but that is my gig i love the creative process.
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my hesitation in a build log that highlights the errors and problems is the same as everyone points out "who wants their work out there showing the stuff that goes wrong or someone saying you sure made it hard on yourself doing it that way? BUT i am having a good time for me it is an adventure in learning and discovery, the WOW! i didn't expect that!
feedback positive or negative they are both information coming in and that is a good thing. Just turn down the emotion dial and dial up the logical it's information and that's all.
feedback positive or negative they are both information coming in and that is a good thing. Just turn down the emotion dial and dial up the logical it's information and that's all.
"the idea is to create a semi-kit with the very basic pieces and parts which would require more than glue part A to part B, this requires some skill in accurate cutting, shaping and fitting and understanding the construction of a stern."
I like this idea! I also like the idea of "model kit material upgrade kits", which are sets of precut planking and mast dowels for popular kits made by well known popular kit manufacturers. Example: An upgrade set of hardwood to replace the basswood in Model Shipway's Privateer Rattlesnake. As a custom wood supplier, Dave, you could simply make such upgrade kits on demand, using a pre-configured parts and materials list that you have on file. I'm pretty sure you've thought of these already, though. Kit bashers typically figure out what they want to replace and order it from wood suppliers.
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I am inspired that so many fellow "modellers" regard the challenges as "relaxing"! At age 87 I have completed the full "Endeavour" model and the cross section of "Victory" and had many moments of near panic, and cold sweat, but the end results are thrilling and fill me with pride. I am not worried about absolute historical accuracy, and gain immense pleasure from viewing them each day. This forum is a most valuable aid to many of us, and the attitude of members is generally one of helpfulness and support. Bravo!
Credo anch'io che non sia corretto criticare il livello di accuratezza nella realizzazione di un modello. Ognuno trae dal modellismo la soddisfazione che può, commisurata alle proprie possibilità.
I also believe that it is incorrect to criticize the level of accuracy in the creation of a model. Everyone gets as much satisfaction from modeling as they can, commensurate with their possibilities.
I also believe that it is incorrect to criticize the level of accuracy in the creation of a model. Everyone gets as much satisfaction from modeling as they can, commensurate with their possibilities.
Plucking out hairs for seizing!Everyone that is in this hobby expects different things at different levels and the ranges offer nearly unlimited possibilities. I think we all at times need to remember this point. As you pointed out, some people just enjoy building a kit right out of the box and not doing any research. Others want to make modifications to make the kit as realistic and accurate as possible. The entire point of a hobby is to relax and have a good time. If they are doing that, who are we to tell them that they are doing it wrong and telling them they have to do things differently (unless they ask).
In addition, Even if you wanted to, it would be almost impossible to build a ship like the HMS Victory accurately to scale. As an example of this, just for the foremast shrouds, the shroud lines are 8" circum. the collars are 6.5", the seizings are 1", the lashings are 2" and the lanyards are 3.5". And that is just for the shrouds. Keep in mind, those are circumference. Plus, if you are build it in 1/100, then the line used for the seizing is going to need to be 0.0032 inches in diameter to be an accurate size for the scale build!
I don't think I would have a good time trying to work with something that small.
I think I'll stick with my "inaccurate" models.
Jeff
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I have never paid too much attention to historical accuracy, (although it is always appreciated) what disturbs me are the gross errors and the applause for them, just to look good, since the blessed one will persist in those errors.
The most common ones that I remember are usually due to following the instructions to the letter and even the materials included in some kits.
The width of the deck planking is almost always out of scale.
Guns in shiny gold brass, as far as I know were not common on real ships.
Door hinges and huge nails and leaving them visible in the heads.
The lining if the hull is going to be painted is less important, but leaving exposed wood with very fine points is a path to wood rot in a real boat. I put a photo of a kit, which I wrote to the manufacturer and they told me that it was fine like this.
The rudder axis coincided with the base of the mizzen mast!!!!!
In my models I have always had this phrase in my head "It doesn't have to be, it has to "seem."
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The most common ones that I remember are usually due to following the instructions to the letter and even the materials included in some kits.
The width of the deck planking is almost always out of scale.
Guns in shiny gold brass, as far as I know were not common on real ships.
Door hinges and huge nails and leaving them visible in the heads.
The lining if the hull is going to be painted is less important, but leaving exposed wood with very fine points is a path to wood rot in a real boat. I put a photo of a kit, which I wrote to the manufacturer and they told me that it was fine like this.
The rudder axis coincided with the base of the mizzen mast!!!!!
In my models I have always had this phrase in my head "It doesn't have to be, it has to "seem."
Sugerencias
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even a human hair would be about twice the diameter.Plucking out hairs for seizing!
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I like this idea! I also like the idea of "model kit material upgrade kits", which are sets of precut planking and mast dowels for popular kits made by well known popular kit manufacturers. Example: An upgrade set of hardwood to replace the basswood in Model Shipway's Privateer Rattlesnake. As a custom wood supplier, Dave, you could simply make such upgrade kits on demand, using a pre-configured parts and materials list that you have on file. I'm pretty sure you've thought of these already, though. Kit bashers typically figure out what they want to replace and order it from wood suppliers.
actually, that is how the Lumberyard started years ago was replacing the wood in kits. but what happened was builders realized they bought a kit and tossed out all the wood and replaced it which added more cost to a basic kit. Then the trend sort of went south when it was realized you paying for quality wood and using it in a kit that was not correct to begin with. Kind of like putting lipstick on a pig it is still a pig.
Then it was suggested why not buy a semi-kit that is buy only the plywood bulkhead parts, the rigging set and some fittings, then buy your choice of wood.
in the past i have had builders send me the kit plans and i would laser cut the bulkheads and make up a timbering set for the model. Kind of extreme kit bashing.
actually, that is how the Lumberyard started years ago was replacing the wood in kits. but what happened was builders realized they bought a kit and tossed out all the wood and replaced it which added more cost to a basic kit. Then the trend sort of went south when it was realized you paying for quality wood and using it in a kit that was not correct to begin with. Kind of like putting lipstick on a pig it is still a pig.
Then it was suggested why not buy a semi-kit that is buy only the plywood bulkhead parts, the rigging set and some fittings, then buy your choice of wood.
in the past i have had builders send me the kit plans and i would laser cut the bulkheads and make up a timbering set for the model. Kind of extreme kit bashing.
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there have been times i get Emails from builders who love models from Harold Hahn collection they will tell me they want to build one of his models but do not want to cut and build all the framing.
You do not have to build it according to Hahns plans it is very easy to take every third frame and cut it out as a bulkhead then custom order all your timbering and planking in whatever wood you want.
or build a bulkhead hull and leave a center section open showing a few frames.
semi-scratch building opens many creative possibilities
You do not have to build it according to Hahns plans it is very easy to take every third frame and cut it out as a bulkhead then custom order all your timbering and planking in whatever wood you want.
or build a bulkhead hull and leave a center section open showing a few frames.
semi-scratch building opens many creative possibilities
I don't get crazy about historical accuracy, but I appreciate models that are accurate. That being said, I was just finishing up ratting the shrouds on my Roter Lowe when I saw Fred Hocker's recent great explanation of the genesis of deadeyes from triangular to round. My Mamoli kit came with round deadeyes. I'm not going to go back and redo everything at this point, but each time I look at her now I wish the deadeyes had more of a point to them.
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I don't get crazy about historical accuracy, but I appreciate models that are accurate. That being said, I was just finishing up ratting the shrouds on my Roter Lowe when I saw Fred Hocker's recent great explanation of the genesis of deadeyes from triangular to round. My Mamoli kit came with round deadeyes. I'm not going to go back and redo everything at this point, but each time I look at her now I wish the deadeyes had more of a point to them.
i feel your concern the unadmitted "it bothers me" of builders who claim they are not into correctness either historic or construction.
i have models i built and there are mistakes that no one will ever notice but i know they are there and there is that slight it does bother me just a little and not enough to do it again or trash the model.
Next time i will know better
i feel your concern the unadmitted "it bothers me" of builders who claim they are not into correctness either historic or construction.
i have models i built and there are mistakes that no one will ever notice but i know they are there and there is that slight it does bother me just a little and not enough to do it again or trash the model.
Next time i will know better