Rope Quality Question

[Korsan]

You can take a look at this
link https://www.modellbau-takelgarn.com/
They also offer PES-yarns but I dont recommend,because after cutting it spreads out immediately unless you glue the end before cutting. The CO- yarns are excelent in structure and spinning quality.They also have teered (heavy duty) yarns in their sortiment.I used their yarns by Dolphyn and partly by Red Dragon models.

 

[albertmary]

Dockattner hit the point here, I think. Before you know that other real quality ropes are available, you think kit rope, or even thread, is fine. My first ship model used one size of thread for the entire model. I didn't know better, and I was happy with the result. You have discovered that some rope is better than others, and I hope you receive a real answer on your question of AL vs Amati vs other less expensive rope. You have to decide what is best for you, what you can afford and what you are willing to put into your model. My Carrack is the first model for which I have used 3rd party rope. While the kit by MarisStella came with Amati rope, I wanted something better. I really wanted RopesOfScale, but at close to $200 could not rationalize it. I settled for rope from Modellbau-Takelgarn in Germany, at about a third the price. Not cheap but not so expensive. It looks good, but I don't think it's the quality of RopesOfScale, as it's not easy to work with and has slight fuzz. That is my compromise. You will have to decide what yours is. When you display your model to your friends, none of them will know the difference, only you.

Thak you, Signet. That a real breakthrough. The stuff looks very good and affordable. The manufacturer is settled in EU, a decisive plus for me in terms of shipping costs, VAT and customs duty.

 

[Vfordyce]

Thank you for your emphatic analysis @dockattner !

I think your estimate of $400 is not far of. Indeed I am on a tight budget, but of course in the end it is all a matter of choice. So if I really wanted to I could actually choose to spend this kind of money without having to economize on essentials.

But that's not the whole story. The retail price of this kit is about €320 (I got it for €260), which I think is good value for money. However the materials used are of course not the best. No walnut and boxwood, but plywood and lime wood for example. Real ropes combined with plywood deck furniture, wouldn't that be like installing golden taps on a budget bathtub? It also would not be the end. The composite deadeyes and blocks would be next in line to be replaced. These don't come cheap either.

And then there is this. Building a wooden model ship takes a long time. So in the process one develops skills and increases knowledge. Halfway one regrets choices that are made or not made in the beginning of the build, in spite of ample preparation. For instance, at a certain point I decided to make some of the parts of an alternative, more suitable kind of wood than supplied with the kit, especially these parts that needed to be carved. But still the parts that I made before are of a lesser quality wood, and this shows. It is unfortunately too much of a hassle to replace these. On the other hand I did break away the original - superglued - decorations of the stern and replaced them with more convincing ones. This was quite a decision to make because of the risk of irreversible damage, but I'm very happy with the result now. The cost of these adaptations however was modest. The dilemma is, should't one at one point - within reasonable limits - accept things as they are and save any newly acquired insights for the next build? Particularly because some of the bad choices, either your own or the manufacturers, simply cannot be undone.
But of course with each next ship the whole thing starts all over again...

Finally one more thing to consider. I still have so much to learn. This is only my second ship, and I even lack any former experience in woodworking. Shouldn't I first develop my skills and only then start using fancy materials?

To conclude: I still think the Kolderstok rope/thread could be a nice compromise.

PS: Your Vasa looks magnificent. I remember it attracting my attention on this forum before.

I approached it the way you did. My first ship was a learning experience. I keep it around to see how much I’ve progressed. I used the supplied rope from the kit. Since then, I’ve experimented with a lot of different things. I’ll probably never get a rope walk and only use special rope for specific lines. I’m more concerned about how thick the rope is. I’ve seen several models with very thick white ropes. The rope was all you saw on the model. If I have stark white ropes, I often dye them now to make them look like hemp. Ultimately, it’s the modelers’s choice. It has to be according to your priorities and level of experience and present ability. It’s good that you’re asking questions, though. That’s how you learn.

 

[Fred P.]

Hi all,
I remind you that I can make ropes for you for a very low price
https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/homemade-ropes-for-sell.7383/#post-303335
It is easy to send them from France to the Netherlands
Best regards
Fred

 

[Norgale]

Хорошо сказал, даже товарищ Троцкий бы одобрил.

Well said, even Comrade Trotsky would have approved.

You said that right . I've been researching thread and rope and you can't get there from here. Ask for a .50 rope and they don't know what your talking about. They only sell with Tex numbers which is the weight of a thousand meters of that thread in grams. So how do you convert grams to .50? I have no idea. What we need to do to get great ropes for our ships if figure out how many threads of a Tex# thread does it take to make a rope the size we need for the ship we are building. When you buy the Syren Rope Walk you get some instructions that give you some of the answers but not all. I'm looking for .75 rope and can't find it anywhere. Since the sewing machines don't take that size thread the suppliers don't have it. If you buy stuff for ships the price goes through the roof compared to what thread sells for online. OOOOOOO! A rope size chart just appeared in the post above me here. Lets take a look at that. Norgale

 

[Norgale]

I approached it the way you did. My first ship was a learning experience. I keep it around to see how much I’ve progressed. I used the supplied rope from the kit. Since then, I’ve experimented with a lot of different things. I’ll probably never get a rope walk and only use special rope for specific lines. I’m more concerned about how thick the rope is. I’ve seen several models with very thick white ropes. The rope was all you saw on the model. If I have stark white ropes, I often dye them now to make them look like hemp. Ultimately, it’s the modelers’s choice. It has to be according to your priorities and level of experience and present ability. It’s good that you’re asking questions, though. That’s how you learn.

I've seen the all white ropes and it doesn't look very prototypical to me. I like the black standing rigging and the tan running rigging best. I like to use the heavier rope such as on my 1;78 Cutty Sark which requires .75mm on all the lower rigging like the huge bottom sails, then move to a medium size rope like .50mm for the middle sails running and standing and then .25mm for the upper third of the sails. That looks good to me and all the ropes aren't the same size which is what you would see on a real sailing ship. The chart above is good information but if you called Wawak who is a big thread supplier and asked for a .50mm black twisted poly thread they won't have any idea of what to sell you. Therein lies the problem. How to compute the Tex numbers which are weight to millimters. It just doesn't compute. It's apples to oranges all over again.
I like the heavier ropes/strings that are shown by Hattaras above. I'll look into that and see if it's reasonable to order from overseas. Too bad I cn't find that rope in the USA and save on the shipping and the waiting time. Norgale

 

[OlivierF]

You said that right . I've been researching thread and rope and you can't get there from here. Ask for a .50 rope and they don't know what your talking about. They only sell with Tex numbers which is the weight of a thousand meters of that thread in grams. So how do you convert grams to .50? I have no idea. What we need to do to get great ropes for our ships if figure out how many threads of a Tex# thread does it take to make a rope the size we need for the ship we are building. When you buy the Syren Rope Walk you get some instructions that give you some of the answers but not all. I'm looking for .75 rope and can't find it anywhere. Since the sewing machines don't take that size thread the suppliers don't have it. If you buy stuff for ships the price goes through the roof compared to what thread sells for online. OOOOOOO! A rope size chart just appeared in the post above me here. Lets take a look at that. Norgale

I use primarily cotton thread from DMC (specifically DMC Cordonnet) in ecru and made a chart for identifying the various thread weights versus the number of strands used in the ropewalk to identify the appropriate thicknesses of the resulting rope.

For smaller rope I simply use the thread as is since they are already 3-strand Z “rope”…


I use the ecru naturally for running rigging and dye the thread prior to making rope with dark brown Rit Fabric Dye.
this works for me but your results may vary…

 

[Norgale]

Да, это стандартные канаты Amati.

Does that mean 'yes'?

 

[Norgale]

I use primarily cotton thread from DMC (specifically DMC Cordonnet) in ecru and made a chart for identifying the various thread weights versus the number of strands used in the ropewalk to identify the appropriate thicknesses of the resulting rope.
View attachment 417937
For smaller rope I simply use the thread as is since they are already 3-strand Z “rope”…

View attachment 417939
I use the ecru naturally for running rigging and dye the thread prior to making rope with dark brown Rit Fabric Dye.
this works for me but your results may vary…

Thanks for that Oliver. I can make just about anything I need with this info but I'll continue to try and find the sizes I need in the color required. I like my rope walk but it's hard for me to see the thin threads so mixing them up can be a problem. I have made some nice looking ropes so far.Norgale

 

[Y.T.]

Here is information on rope sizes made from tex# threads. This is from Domanoff rope walk manual. Note these are the only thread makers, type, color and size he recommends. All threads are polyester.

 

[KeithLyall]

Soon I will start with the rigging on my Occre HM Bark Endeavour. However, I am not happy with the quality of the rope supplied with the kit. It is fluffy and does not look like real rope at all. I have rigged my first build (HMS Endurance) with this very same rope - which I even waxed - but I want something more convincing now.
Can anyone inform me whether the ropes provided by AL or Amati (which are obtainable relatively easily in The Netherlands) are any better than the Occre rope? Are there perhaps any other - affordable - alternatives?
I did order some samples from the Dutch firm Kolderstok. This rope is clearly of a better quality, but unfortunately they only produce brown and white, while I would prefer it in a natural colour.


View attachment 416301

On the left: Kolderstock rope. On the right: Occre rope.

Hi Mike, yep I know what you mean. I used the Occre supplied thread on my Endeavour and yes it is definitely quite hairy/furry and not really in keeping with the overall quality of the model. Occre provide plenty of the thread in the kit and there is a LOT of it if you include all running rigging which I guess may make replacement costly so I guess its what price you put on a more authentic build. I like Paul's wine analogy and am in the same dilemma with my Endurance build although I have a year or so before I need to make a decision. At least with the Endurance the amount of "rope" required looks to be considerably less than the Endeavour. Will be interested to see which route you finally choose. Thanks for raising the question as it has provided a number of good sources of quality rope.

 

[Hatteras]

Hi Mike, yep I know what you mean. I used the Occre supplied thread on my Endeavour and yes it is definitely quite hairy/furry and not really in keeping with the overall quality of the model. Occre provide plenty of the thread in the kit and there is a LOT of it if you include all running rigging which I guess may make replacement costly so I guess its what price you put on a more authentic build. I like Paul's wine analogy and am in the same dilemma with my Endurance build although I have a year or so before I need to make a decision. At least with the Endurance the amount of "rope" required looks to be considerably less than the Endeavour. Will be interested to see which route you finally choose. Thanks for raising the question as it has provided a number of good sources of quality rope.

Hi Keith. Indeed the amount of rope required for Endurance is considerably less. Just so you can make an estimate; I had about four spools left when finished. I also reckon you will get there way before a year has passed. But of course your experience with the much more demanding Endeavour puts you in a position where you can really improve on the standard Endurance. For instance: planking the shelter on the main deck, planking the bullwarks, replacing the metal doors, opening up the space beneath the forecastle, using deadeyes on the top shrouds, improvement on the tops themselves, build the dog kennels in pairs of two, get rid of the ridiculous capstan etc. Just a few suggestions. I am looking forward to your interpretation.

 

[Hatteras]

Does that mean 'yes'?

It does.

 

[KeithLyall]

Hi Keith. Indeed the amount of rope required for Endurance is considerably less. Just so you can make an estimate; I had about four spools left when finished. I also reckon you will get there way before a year has passed. But of course your experience with the much more demanding Endeavour puts you in a position where you can really improve on the standard Endurance. For instance: planking the shelter on the main deck, planking the bullwarks, replacing the metal doors, opening up the space beneath the forecastle, using deadeyes on the top shrouds, improvement on the tops themselves, build the dog kennels in pairs of two, get rid of the ridiculous capstan etc. Just a few suggestions. I am looking forward to your interpretation.

Thanks Mike. Yes I agree with a number of your suggestions … in fact I have already bought a replacement capstan and was planning to replace the metal doors. Certainly you have added further considerations thank you. Will try and do justice to my build.

 

[Hatteras]

This morning my order of Amati 'rope' arrived, along with some other stuff. The order was placed the 27th of December, so that's not bad from Italy to the Netherlands.



Of course I started comparing right away. What immediately attracted my attention is the fact that the Amati 0.5 'rope' is much thinner than both the Kolderstok and the Occre 0.5 'ropes'. In fact The Amati 1.0 rope (I'll stop using quotation marks now, assuming it is obvious for all I am aware this is not real rope) is only slightly thicker than the Occre 0.5 rope. So far for attempting to do the rigging in the historically correct scale. This will not work if one blindly relies on the data supplied by the manufacturer. Another observation: the Occre rope is left handed, and the other two are right handed (until last week I had no idea there is a difference). The Amati rope is black whereas the other two are dark brown.

Regarding fuzziness or fluffiness, which was my main issue, the Amati rope clearly comes out better than the Occre rope, and is more or less comparable with the kolderstok rope (maybe even slightly better). So for me this is an acceptable alternative for now. Both the Amati and the Kolderstok rope (unfortunately only available in dark brown and white) are about € 0,05 to € 0,15 per meter compared to € 0,50 to € 1,20 per meter for superior real rope (roughly a factor 10), of which there are lots of examples in the posts above.




Below a comparison between Occre 0.15 (top) and Amati 0.25 (bottom) in hemp/natural colour as used for running rigging. The Amati 0.25 is thinner than the Occre 0.15! I suspect that the apparent thickness when observed with the naked eye must also be influenced by the fluffiness.
The difference in fluffiness is as clear as day. Amati is the obvious winner.

 

[dockattner]

This morning my order of Amati 'rope' arrived, along with some other stuff. The order was placed the 27th of December, so that's not bad from Italy to the Netherlands.

View attachment 418930

Of course I started comparing right away. What immediately attracted my attention is the fact that the Amati 0.5 'rope' is much thinner than both the Kolderstok and the Occre 0.5 'ropes'. In fact The Amati 1.0 rope (I'll stop using quotation marks now, assuming it is obvious for all I am aware this is not real rope) is only slightly thicker than the Occre 0.5 rope. So far for attempting to do the rigging in the historically correct scale. This will not work if one blindly relies on the data supplied by the manufacturer. Another observation: the Occre rope is left handed, and the other two are right handed (until last week I had no idea there is a difference). The Amati rope is black whereas the other two are dark brown.

Regarding fuzziness or fluffiness, which was my main issue, the Amati rope clearly comes out better than the Occre rope, and is more or less comparable with the kolderstok rope (maybe even slightly better). So for me this is an acceptable alternative for now. Both the Amati and the Kolderstok rope (unfortunately only available in dark brown and white) are about € 0,05 to € 0,15 per meter compared to € 0,50 to € 1,20 per meter for superior real rope (roughly a factor 10), of which there are lots of examples in the posts above.

View attachment 418935


Below a comparison between Occre 0.15 (top) and Amati 0.25 (bottom) in hemp/natural colour as used for running rigging. The Amati 0.25 is thinner than the Occre 0.15! I suspect that the apparent thickness when observed with the naked eye must also be influenced by the fluffiness.
The difference in fluffiness is as clear as day. Amati is the obvious winner.


View attachment 418934

A useful way to determine the actual thickness of these ropes is to wrap them around a dowel 10x or 20x (snugly with no spaces between the wraps) and then simply measure the distance covered and divide by the number of wraps. This will give you the actual diameter. Sorry if you already knew this...

 

[Hatteras]

A useful way to determine the actual thickness of these ropes is to wrap them around a dowel 10x or 20x (snugly with no spaces between the wraps) and then simply measure the distance covered and divide by the number of wraps. This will give you the actual diameter. Sorry if you already knew this...

I have made a measurement according to your method and it turns out that the diameters of the Amati ropes are app. 20 % smaller than specified.

 

[Hatteras]

This morning my order of Amati 'rope' arrived, along with some other stuff. The order was placed the 27th of December, so that's not bad from Italy to the Netherlands.

View attachment 418930

Of course I started comparing right away. What immediately attracted my attention is the fact that the Amati 0.5 'rope' is much thinner than both the Kolderstok and the Occre 0.5 'ropes'. In fact The Amati 1.0 rope (I'll stop using quotation marks now, assuming it is obvious for all I am aware this is not real rope) is only slightly thicker than the Occre 0.5 rope. So far for attempting to do the rigging in the historically correct scale. This will not work if one blindly relies on the data supplied by the manufacturer. Another observation: the Occre rope is left handed, and the other two are right handed (until last week I had no idea there is a difference). The Amati rope is black whereas the other two are dark brown.

Regarding fuzziness or fluffiness, which was my main issue, the Amati rope clearly comes out better than the Occre rope, and is more or less comparable with the kolderstok rope (maybe even slightly better). So for me this is an acceptable alternative for now. Both the Amati and the Kolderstok rope (unfortunately only available in dark brown and white) are about € 0,05 to € 0,15 per meter compared to € 0,50 to € 1,20 per meter for superior real rope (roughly a factor 10), of which there are lots of examples in the posts above.

View attachment 418935


Below a comparison between Occre 0.15 (top) and Amati 0.25 (bottom) in hemp/natural colour as used for running rigging. The Amati 0.25 is thinner than the Occre 0.15! I suspect that the apparent thickness when observed with the naked eye must also be influenced by the fluffiness.
The difference in fluffiness is as clear as day. Amati is the obvious winner.


View attachment 418934

I forgot to add the following conclusion to my post:

So it turns out the rope supplied by the most popular kit manufacturers does differ in quality, in spite of some of the remarks above. For some of the advanced builders and promotors/sellers of real rope, these differences might be irrelevant, but for me they are not and I suspect they are not for many novice modelers.

There were many useful responses as well. Thank you for that.

 

[Robertk]

I have had the same issue with my Occre Endeavour and after doing the shrouds and ratlines changed to Syren Model Ship rope, less fuzzy. RobertK.