Samuel 1650 – a Dutch mid-17th century trader

.​

For readers who do not realise how much is at stake in this whole “game”, I would like to clarify that the general conclusions expressed in the above post, and resulting from the analysis of source materials, incidentally much ignored or not investigated properly so far, imply, to a large extent, the annihilation of the existing perception of the evolution of early modern naval architecture, expressed in perhaps thousands of works, and for many decades by generations of scholars and less ‘official’ authors as well.

For those better versed in the subject, it will be shown below, using the example of the French transport ship La Belle 1684 (or rather its equivalent – the fluit Le Profond 1685, designed according to the same principles), how the hitherto desperate lack of recognition in general and, in particular, of defining the ‘’omnipresent‘’ after all, North Continental/Dutch method, has negatively affected the conceptual interpretation of this wreck in an otherwise valuable monograph published by Texas University Press in 2017 (La Belle. The Archaeology of a Seventeenth-Century Ship of New World Colonization), and in an equally valuable monograph on this ship published by Ancre in 2000 (Cavelier de La Salle. L'Expédition de 1684. La Belle).

In the first of these publications, the process of generating the frame contours is presented as follows (concept and illustration by Taras Pevny):


La Belle 1684 - generating frames - Taras Pevny.jpg


In the above interpretation, the most important part of the hull – the „flat”, is left unexplained or undefined at all. The bilge curves are depicted as arcs of a circle, as geometrical continuation of the futtock sweeps, and the resulting inconsistency with the actual contours of the wreck's frames was simply justified by some contrived anomalies. And then it stops. In the second publication mentioned, the process is presented in a perhaps even less satisfactory manner.

Edit: Not only that — the alternative interpretation of this shipwreck (by another co-author of the monograph by Texas University Press), sporting identified design diagonals, as representative of the classical Mediterranean method of ship design, is already a complete misunderstanding.

In reality, it is precisely another developmental variation of the North Continental/Dutch method, but already using design diagonals, just entering into common use in ship design. One of these two diagonals, the lower one, replaces the hitherto traditional line of the ‘flat’ , and the other diagonal, the upper one, is in a sense the equivalent of the ‘boeisel’ line (though not quite), anyway used to form futtock sweeps. In this particular design sub-variant, as in any other in the North Continental/Dutch method, it is the ‘flat’ which is formed first, and only then it is connected to the futtock sweeps, in this case necessarily via elliptical curves, as shown in the diagram below.


Le Profond 1685.jpg


.​
 
Last edited:
For readers who do not realise how much is at stake in this whole “game”, I would like to clarify that the general conclusions expressed in the above post, and resulting from the analysis of source materials, incidentally much ignored or not investigated properly so far, imply, to a large extent, the annihilation of the existing perception of the evolution of early modern naval architecture, expressed in perhaps thousands of works, and for many decades by generations of scholars and less ‘official’ authors as well.
And this is exactly why I say that your work marks the single most significant aspect of earlier Dutch naval research to date.

My key takeaways here are:

1. The analysis of source materials has not been properly researched - or even worse - ignored altogether. And to this I would like to add, seemingly in favour of a "general" set of "rules and/or parameters" which was only published at much later date.

2. As a result of source materials not being properly researched or ignored, the existing perception of early modern naval architecture is based on nothing more than hypotheses and assumptions which makes nonsense of a large portion of findings which have so far been regarded as gospel.

3. Leaving the flat portion of La Belle's hull unexplained or undefined and merely using diagonals as a means of connecting the futtock sweeps to the keel, ignores the basic foundation of the hull which, in turn, is instrumental as to the how the actual shape of the hull is formed. The fact that two "academic" publications on the subject are both guilty of the same omissions, is disturbing to say the least.
 
Last edited:
.​

Richard, Ab, Fred, Kroum, Taras, my dear friends (though long out of touch), any comments?

.​
That´s interesting! Could there be a certain similarity between this and the heavy Chaillie-fregate, which you already described?
 
.​
That´s interesting! Could there be a certain similarity between this and the heavy Chaillie-fregate, which you already described?


Ara? How did you miss the recent, embarrassing carpet bombing on this thread of quite silly entries by members of, say, the Fellowship of the Ring? :)

To your question, I'll answer this way — can the administrators, in between warnings about closing my threads and removing my entries in other users' threads, change the thread title ‘French heavy frigate of 1686 - designing a ship in the Dutch(?) manner by graphic means’ to ‘French heavy frigate of 1686 – designing a ship in the Dutch manner’. Thank you.

Also, please note that there are a dozen more of my other threads on this forum about designing in the North Continental/Dutch method. The former ones may not be quite perfect yet, as breaking free from anachronistic orthodoxy must of necessity have taken some time, but the later ones I already consider quite good.

:)

.​
 
.​



Ara? How did you miss the recent, embarrassing carpet bombing on this thread of quite silly entries by members of, say, the Fellowship of the Ring? :)

To your question, I'll answer this way — can the administrators, in between warnings about closing my threads and removing my entries in other users' threads, change the thread title ‘French heavy frigate of 1686 - designing a ship in the Dutch(?) manner by graphic means’ to ‘French heavy frigate of 1686 – designing a ship in the Dutch manner’. Thank you.

Also, please note that there are a dozen more of my other threads on this forum about designing in the North Continental/Dutch method. The former ones may not be quite perfect yet, as breaking free from anachronistic orthodoxy must of necessity have taken some time, but the later ones I already consider quite good.

:)

.​
Hi Waldemar,

Changed it for you because you asked so nicely :-)
 
.​
Changed it for you because you asked so nicely :-)

Thank you, Maarten, for an equally nicely prompt handling of the matter, much appreciated. Do you think this generally nice atmosphere here will prompt anyone above to make the expected substantive comments? Sadly, a re-reading of the relevant, pre-publication scholar review of the monograph by Texas University Press does not make me overly optimistic in this regard...

.​
 
.​


Thank you, Maarten, for an equally nicely prompt handling of the matter, much appreciated. Do you think this generally nice atmosphere here will prompt anyone above to make the expected substantive comments? Sadly, a re-reading of the relevant, pre-publication scholar review of the monograph by Texas University Press does not make me overly optimistic in this regard...

.​
Hi Waldemar,

You can allways invite them by putting there blog alias in the post.
Put in in like @-Waldemar- and they will be noticed.
Discussions are always welcome and will help develop the hobby as long as they are friendly and polite.

Ps do you have a link to this monograph of texas university press?
 
Last edited:
.​
Discussions are always welcome and will help develop the hobby as long as they are friendly and polite.

Naturally, one should always be polite to all who are themselves polite to others. At the same time, however, I must warn, or rather confirm, that my personal criteria for politeness are probably a bit more sophisticated than the standard ones, and include not only the so-called ‘fake smile’, but also refraining from manipulation, double standards, insinuation, personal insults, clowning and so on. If these rules are already too difficult for someone to follow, they can simply stay away.


Ps do you have a link to this monograph of texas university press?

There is also a link to the relevant chapter in the monograph by Texas University Press in question. Unlike in the final publication itself, there are also some comments there, from academic peer-reviewers, made before the actual publication (first page and 202–203). However, quite a lot of this may already be considered seriously outdated.


.​
 
.​


Naturally, one should always be polite to all who are themselves polite to others. At the same time, however, I must warn, or rather confirm, that my personal criteria for politeness are probably a bit more sophisticated than the standard ones, and include not only the so-called ‘fake smile’, but also refraining from manipulation, double standards, insinuation, personal insults, clowning and so on. If these rules are already too difficult for someone to follow, they can simply stay away.




There is also a link to the relevant chapter in the monograph by Texas University Press in question. Unlike in the final publication itself, there are also some comments there, from academic peer-reviewers, made before the actual publication (first page and 202–203). However, quite a lot of this may already be considered seriously outdated.


.​
Offcourse politeness is different from culture to culture and from person to person. Being Dutch we are often considered being direct and unpolite. But being direct is not unpolite to us but more being honest. So I guess we understand each other clearly.

This paper I have read a while ago and found it quite interesting. Is the new book adding and updating a lot?
 
.​
This paper I have read a while ago and found it quite interesting. Is the new book adding and updating a lot?

I had only received the book itself (hard copy) a week or two earlier, so there wasn't much time to get through the whole thing. Nevertheless, my initial estimate is that it is a worthwhile work, certainly worth the price.

As for the chapter of particular interest to me (i.e. by Pevny; the copy on academia.edu is perfectly the same as in the hard copy), there's a whole lot of useful, valuable stuff in there too, but just to the exclusion of the most important, truly fundamental conclusions. Because, after all, it is not even a matter of determining the dimensions or shapes of a ship with one-centimetre accuracy, or even the run of its design lines in the most accurate way possible, but precisely the most important thing is the correct recognition of the design method used.

The imperative of correctly recognizing the design method cannot be overestimated in this case, because such artefacts are scarce, and it so happens that until now even French historians (including the incomparable Jean Boudriot) have spread their hands helplessly when it comes to how ships were designed/built on the Atlantic coast of France in this early period.

Now, taking into consideration the frigate by Chaillé of 1686, already recognised in this conceptual sense, and some surviving designs by Hubacs from around 1680, this overall picture is beginning to clear up, clearly pointing to the North Continental/Dutch method.

.​
 
.​
Is the new book adding and updating a lot?


My goodness... I have just (partially) read the content of the chapter on the competing, so much misguided (Mediterranean) conceptual interpretation of La Belle 1684 and at the same time came across the information in the post-publication review in a scholar journal that it was the basis for the proud award of a doctoral degree to its author.

One can hardly even blame this author anymore, who after all claims to have consulted numerous, considered to be the most reputable scholars in the field (beside the peer-review process itself), but under the circumstances, it is probably already many presentations of hobbyist model building shown on a modelling forums that look to be more serious.

At this point, perhaps Heinrich's brief observation seems to be worth repeating:

the existing perception of early modern naval architecture is based on nothing more than hypotheses and assumptions which makes nonsense of a large portion of findings

.​
 
.​

For readers who do not realise how much is at stake in this whole “game”, I would like to clarify that the general conclusions expressed in the above post, and resulting from the analysis of source materials, incidentally much ignored or not investigated properly so far, imply, to a large extent, the annihilation of the existing perception of the evolution of early modern naval architecture, expressed in perhaps thousands of works, and for many decades by generations of scholars and less ‘official’ authors as well.

For those better versed in the subject, it will be shown below, using the example of the French transport ship La Belle 1684 (or rather its equivalent – the fluit Le Profond 1685, designed according to the same principles), how the hitherto desperate lack of recognition in general and, in particular, of defining the ‘’omnipresent‘’ after all, North Continental/Dutch method, has negatively affected the conceptual interpretation of this wreck in an otherwise valuable monograph published by Texas University Press in 2017 (La Belle. The Archaeology of a Seventeenth-Century Ship of New World Colonization), and in an equally valuable monograph on this ship published by Ancre in 2000 (Cavelier de La Salle. L'Expédition de 1684. La Belle).

In the first of these publications, the process of generating the frame contours is presented as follows (concept and illustration by Taras Pevny):




In the above interpretation, the most important part of the hull – the „flat”, is left unexplained or undefined at all. The bilge curves are depicted as arcs of a circle, as geometrical continuation of the futtock sweeps, and the resulting inconsistency with the actual contours of the wreck's frames was simply justified by some contrived anomalies. And then it stops. In the second publication mentioned, the process is presented in a perhaps even less satisfactory manner.

Edit: Not only that, the alternative interpretation of this shipwreck, sporting identified design diagonals, in the monograph by Texas University Press, as representative of the classical Mediterranean method of ship design, is already a complete misunderstanding.

In reality, it is precisely another developmental variation of the North Continental/Dutch method, but already using design diagonals, just entering into common use in ship design. One of these two diagonals, the lower one, replaces the hitherto traditional line of the ‘flat’ , and the other diagonal, the upper one, is in a sense the equivalent of the ‘boeisel’ line (though not quite), anyway used to form futtock sweeps. In this particular design sub-variant, as in any other in the North Continental/Dutch method, it is the ‘flat’ which is formed first, and only then it is connected to the futtock sweeps, in this case necessarily via elliptical curves, as shown in the diagram below.



That’s a fascinating discussion on the Samuel 1650! The details about the ship’s construction and historical context are incredible. While researching similar 17th-century Dutch traders, I came across an issue with organizing my notes, especially when trying to analyze complex historical sources. If anyone else has struggled with structuring research, I found this discussion helpful, and you can check it. It’s not directly ship-related, but it touches on managing difficult data, which can be useful when dealing with old records. Also, I’d love to see more close-ups of the deck details—has anyone found good references for that?
.​
Thanks!
 
Last edited:
.​

Thanks for the ‘thanks’.

I will certainly put the book on my list.

However, upon further browsing, the archaeological monograph of La Belle 1684, on the whole, seems do not even come close to the others, especially on the Mary Rose 1511 and the San Juan ca. 1550, but there are serious, if not altogether complete, conceptual deficiencies in those as well. Somehow, virtually every major archaeological monograph to date of early modern ships is conceptually seriously flawed, if it addresses these issues at all. So what if the length of each proverbial nail is meticulously measured during excavations, if one can't learn from these works how ships were actually designed at that time.

Anyway, recently, on the MSW forum, I have started another thread — an attempt at the concept of the mid-16th century Basque whaling ship San Juan. This is, of course, already of a Mediterranean paradigm, which would still evolve into English methods about three-quarters of a century later.

.​
 
.​

Should anyone still have any doubts about the general conceptual identification of the French transport ship La Belle 1684, a very distinctive feature, specific precisely to the North Continental/Dutch method of shipbuilding, can still be pointed out. While it is true that one can learn from the text of the archaeological monograph that the wreck of La Belle did not actually have limber holes (‘There is surprising absence of limber holes [...]’; p. 98), however, the accompanying graphics in the monograph leave no doubt that they were simply not recognised by the authors, consultants and reviewers of the monograph.

Below is a diagram showing, only apparently commonly known as it turns out, the arrangement of limber holes in vessels of Dutch origin, as exemplified by the wreck of La Belle 1684 (black lines in diagram by Toni Carrell):


La Belle 1684 - limber holes.jpg
.​
 
Last edited:
OK ,Y THOUGHTS FROM SOMEONO WHO IS VERY EAGER TO LEARNBTH EDS PROLY JUST ENYING OK I JAVE NOT BEEN POSTING A LOT. JUST UT OF HOSPIFAL APPROX115 DYS MUCH EXPLAATION MFOH COII TO UCH TO DO SO LITTLE TIM KMTOIGHTS IN THIS ECITIG LEARNING EXPERIENCE YOU HAVE 4 PLS OF THE MOST EXERT HISTORNS,D3SIGNERS, MERHERS ODEL BUILDERS IWILL EXPLI LTER HERE I AM AND WHERE IG PLEASGE INM KISS AND CONTINUE .PLRASE ANSWR KEEP HEBALGOING ANSWER PLEAS OD BES STAYSAFE ALL WTH LE DO0N
 
.​

Hi Don, Reading your call, I was reminded of another call by a scholar only a few years ago to the academic community to reopen a broad discussion of past design methods. That call was unsuccessful, and I am now beginning to realise with all its might that 'no-one' was really interested in such a continuation, nay, it must even have been perceived as a mortal threat to the misunderstood prestige and hitherto largely flawed output of the members of this, shall we say, symposium environment.

It is true that one can find idyllic declarations about the general gallantry of scholar circles and their noble intentions, but when confronted with reality, these declarations turn out to be nothing more than fairy tales for the gullible. In the course of my investigations, I have witnessed first-hand theft, attempted bribery to stop investigations, selfishness, deliberate disavowal, nepotism, cynicism, arrogance, hatred, cowardness, and petty cunning, even from the most well-known and renowned representatives of this circle, and not just from their blind admirers.

Incidentally, these so-called human factors must be one of the main reasons for the hopeless stagnation in the field and, moreover, in the environment itself, where no one wants to or dares to "harm" anyone by putting forward new ideas and hypotheses.

And really, it would be naive to think that the number of published works or some formal academic title guarantees someone's integrity or morality. No, they don't. There is no connection whatsoever.

.​
 
Incidentally, these so-called human factors must be one of the main reasons for the hopeless stagnation in the field and, moreover, in the environment itself, where no one wants to or dares to "harm" anyone by putting forward new ideas and hypotheses.

And really, it would be naive to think that the number of published works or some formal academic title guarantees someone's integrity or morality. No, they don't. There is no connection whatsoever.
Never a truer word has been spoken. Four years of the most intensive research I could muster has led me to realise that tired rhetoric, devoid of any substantial basis is all that the "students" of naval history is interested in hearing. Inconsistent findings, blatantly misinterpreted information, national misrepresentation, glaring omissions, extreme rudeness and a general disinterest in going beyond the known are all justified at the hand of authored works produced with the sole aim of monetary gain and personal fame - certainly not at finding the facts.
 
Back
Top