Soleil Royal 1671 modified Heller kit

Tanneron appears to have combined features of both the early First Marine (very tall stern, pronounced tumblehome, fully open quarters, open lower stern balcony) with features of the Second Marine - particularly the arrangement of artillery on the first battery, as well as the shape and ornamental style of the quarters.

The evolution of QG’s, in France goes from terraced and fully open, on the capital ships of the early 1670’s, to partially closed (on the lowest functional level) through the mid-1670’s and 80’s, to eventually fully closed in the 1690’s.

It is my suspicion that Heller, with the reasoning you stated, also relied upon the later Louis Quinze model and the following quarter drawing that I believe to be for the reconstructed SR of 1693, in arriving at their QG design:

2E9B427D-6397-4708-A8FC-F4DB982522DA.jpeg

The model Guy is making, I think, will be more clearly representative of this earliest time in the ship’s history.
 
Hi:) Tell me; what brings you to believe the ship was blue? the aquarelles from Pierre Vary which were probably a color suggestion for the reconstructed version in 1690. The blue was the most expensive of the colors and the king had ordered in 1686 that no expensive colors were to be used on ships going forward; an exception would have been for smaller areas on the two bigger warships, the Soleil Royal and the Royal Louis, which never got the refit and was instead replaced in 1692. As for the very first version of 1671, though there is nothing written about the exact color it could have been, it is doubtful to me theywould have painted it blue.
There are no drawings of the first side galleries (bouteilles) for the first version, only for the rebuilt one; therefore I am relying on the Tanneron model. The reason being that he has seen apparently drawings from when Puget reworked the stern decors, a drawing which is supposed to be somewhere in the archives of either thePalais de chaillot where the actual naval museum is, or in the the Louvre's archives where the museum used to be in the 19th century....I'm still trying to find a clue of where they are:)))
If you cn ead french, I can send you a document I made about the Soleil Royal and the other royal ships; I found quite a bit of information and if you're interested in the subject, it's an informative read...
Guy,
I have also been very interested in this ship and read everything I can get on the subject. I have also seen the Tanneron model of the SR in the Musee de la' Marine in Paris. That model was painted blue on the upper hull.

The Berain pictures depict the first ship as having the hull painted from the waterline up as blue with gold trim, even the wales were painted gold. I would be very interested in you have any documents showing otherwise.

By the way, I love the alterations you are making to the hull detail.

Bill
 
In guy M 104 pages document, he doesn't talk about the ship hull being blue and those drawings seem more related to the 2nd SR than the 1st one since they got closed quarter galeries
soleil-royal2%20.jpg

soleil-royal3.jpg

The figurehead of the inital SR is also different than the one shown in this drawing.
 
My point is that the ship is blue. Also. can you please quote from a primary source document?

Bill
 
Guy M did in his article, it's in the thread.
"En ce qui concerne le Soleil Royal, la seule information vient d’un commentaire du Sieur Dassié qui dit ‘’
.......sa coque noir, blanc, bleu et ventre de biche, coupée de listons d’or......’’ puis’’...ses sabords
rouges vif..........’’ . Plus loin dans son énoncé, il commentera l’allure plus sobre et de belle apparence
du vaisseau par rapport aux vaisseaux précédents, et le tout était de très bon goût."
From page 47, Dassié doesn't mention it as blue as a whole, or else he wouldn't bother with the white and black.
 
It is basically on the merits of this quote by Dassie that Heller chose the color scheme that they did. When Peter Monamy paints this portrait of her destruction at La Hogue, sometime around 1710, he seems to further corroborate the Dassie quote:

01603B6D-D147-4B84-ADA6-E6484DBECB00.jpeg

Why, exactly, the Berain/Vary color gouache portrait is done all in blue and gold is anyone’s guess. While this makes for a striking appearance, It is very doubtful that the entire ship would have been painted in a dark ultra-marine, owing to the exorbitant expense of blue lapis. It is possible, though, that the ship was painted all blue in a lighter shade derived from copper salts, as this builder suggests:

94108033-E3FA-45C8-92F3-1CEF810C1EA3.jpegF095B17E-4784-43B3-986A-E56EBCFCCE6E.jpeg52CAAD9F-6F95-451C-A1F3-F152A9EE8D0B.jpeg
 
Last edited:
But, he does mention the blue shell and doe belly. He seems clear to me.
Bill
 
he mentionned white between them tho, showing the hull isn't blue as whole for the 1669 SR(you can still do it like that as a what if, it'd give a good model too).
 
This may be another Monamy portrait from the Glasgow Museum:

1669068355516.jpeg

Lastly, there is this curious background ship in this circa 1690’s portrait of La Reale:

076F16D8-381D-4903-A9D4-B37152F117A4.jpeg

If my eyes don’t deceive me, that ship is painted all blue, so maybe that really was a thing.
 
I will go with the Berain version. He was, after all, the chief designer of the outward appearances of the king's ships, as was his son. The paintings showing all blue are the closest I've found to any kind of primary source document. I do not know about Dassie. Who was he? When did he write?

Bill
 
I will go with the Berain version. He was, after all, the chief designer of the outward appearances of the king's ships, as was his son. The paintings showing all blue are the closest I've found to any kind of primary source document. I do not know about Dassie. Who was he? When did he write?

Bill
from waht I got, Dassié talked about the soleil royal before its refit, so the berain drawings being attributed to submission for the refitted soleil royal should be used as inspiration for a 1692 one.
 
I will go with the Berain version. He was, after all, the chief designer of the outward appearances of the king's ships, as was his son. The paintings showing all blue are the closest I've found to any kind of primary source document. I do not know about Dassie. Who was he? When did he write?

Bill

Dassie was an important figure in the developmental transition from the First Marine of the late 1660’s to the more codified Second Marine of the 1690’s. He was, in other words, a credible authority:

 
Dassie was an important figure in the developmental transition from the First Marine of the late 1660’s to the more codified Second Marine of the 1690’s. He was, in other words, a credible authority:

Thank you, Marc. I have never heard of him until now.
Bill
 
Good day ( or evening:)) This is what I have found and wrote about in my document; In the springof 1671 when Dassie saw the Soleil Royal finished and being prepared for a trip in Charente, he wrote this amongst his whole document about the event. ''...le noir, le blanc, le bleu et le ventre de biche........Ses listons d'or et le rouge vif de ses sabords, c'est un vaisseau magnifique.'' He would write another comment about the decors being more sober but of very fine taste. From a itness, this is as close as you get to have some clues on the initial appearance of the ship.
I have made several interpretations of what the ship could have looked like in my document, bringing examles and reasons why I chose those scenarios. As for the blue, all artists who made paintings relied on whatever information they found, not knowing in which period those informations depicted. So, here is a VERY quick resume of what is the most likely:
1671..... The ship could have been mainly white because it was one of two ''hors classe'' ships, the other being the Royal Louis of 1668; so if we refer to Dassie's comment, the black is the waterline, of rather the protection above the yukky white stuff painted at the waterline. it envelops the two bottom strakes(?) or, in French préceintes, then the hull would be white, as with the Royal Louis, up to the top of the upper main battery. There can be a lot of interpretations for the ''listons d'or, or the golden moldings which were running the lenght of the hull. Next comes the blue color which covers the paneling from the forecastle and quarterdeck and all the way up to the top of the side. The rest is more obscure sincethere are no details; however, there might have been some ocre red in the inserts of the decor inside the galleries and around the back windows. The stern and side galleries would be a mix of mainly blue and some yellow-gold, the gold paint beng reserved for the royal symbols, the main backboard relief, the crown at the top, and the decorations inside; this being because that paint was horribly expensive, as was the blue color. The two pics show where the gold color woud have been applied; the blue in those examples is azurite blue for the darker blue, and a lighter and cheaper, though still expensive color made from a mix of copper/bronze oxide and sullphur oxide.
1688... The ship is being rebuilt, lowered and the stern slightly widen; the decor, a new variation from the first one is now a Berain product, the original had been a redesign of Puget from the original Le Brun drawing.
What you see in the aquarelle from Vary is a propositon for decor on the refit ship, which may, or may not have been approved; why? because blue was still quite expensive and in 1686 the king ordered that no ship would have expensive paint applied to them; as with the king's rules, there were always some ''flexibility'' and it is why the refit ship would have had SOME blue, but not the whole hull. Berain himself sent a proposition to the king which laid out in one drawing several possibilities...but no blue (see pic). So, in answer to your inquiry, the blue color was used on a very limited basis because of its cost. Blue only became affordable early in the 18th century, when the ''prussian blue'' was discovered... the two last pics depict an avenue for the decor's color

And no, the Tanneron at the museum is not blue.... The hull is ocre yellow with black and different wood tinits as the hull is only a vehicle for the remarkable bow and stern sculptings
Lastly, if any of you reading this want a copy of my document, you're welcomed to ask for one:)

soleilroyal028-1.jpg

soleilroyal43-2 (2).jpg

soleilroyal52-2.jpg

soleil royal3.jpg

soleilroyal51-1.jpg
 
Good day ( or evening:)) This is what I have found and wrote about in my document; In the springof 1671 when Dassie saw the Soleil Royal finished and being prepared for a trip in Charente, he wrote this amongst his whole document about the event. ''...le noir, le blanc, le bleu et le ventre de biche........Ses listons d'or et le rouge vif de ses sabords, c'est un vaisseau magnifique.'' He would write another comment about the decors being more sober but of very fine taste. From a itness, this is as close as you get to have some clues on the initial appearance of the ship.
I have made several interpretations of what the ship could have looked like in my document, bringing examles and reasons why I chose those scenarios. As for the blue, all artists who made paintings relied on whatever information they found, not knowing in which period those informations depicted. So, here is a VERY quick resume of what is the most likely:
1671..... The ship could have been mainly white because it was one of two ''hors classe'' ships, the other being the Royal Louis of 1668; so if we refer to Dassie's comment, the black is the waterline, of rather the protection above the yukky white stuff painted at the waterline. it envelops the two bottom strakes(?) or, in French préceintes, then the hull would be white, as with the Royal Louis, up to the top of the upper main battery. There can be a lot of interpretations for the ''listons d'or, or the golden moldings which were running the lenght of the hull. Next comes the blue color which covers the paneling from the forecastle and quarterdeck and all the way up to the top of the side. The rest is more obscure sincethere are no details; however, there might have been some ocre red in the inserts of the decor inside the galleries and around the back windows. The stern and side galleries would be a mix of mainly blue and some yellow-gold, the gold paint beng reserved for the royal symbols, the main backboard relief, the crown at the top, and the decorations inside; this being because that paint was horribly expensive, as was the blue color. The two pics show where the gold color woud have been applied; the blue in those examples is azurite blue for the darker blue, and a lighter and cheaper, though still expensive color made from a mix of copper/bronze oxide and sullphur oxide.
1688... The ship is being rebuilt, lowered and the stern slightly widen; the decor, a new variation from the first one is now a Berain product, the original had been a redesign of Puget from the original Le Brun drawing.
What you see in the aquarelle from Vary is a propositon for decor on the refit ship, which may, or may not have been approved; why? because blue was still quite expensive and in 1686 the king ordered that no ship would have expensive paint applied to them; as with the king's rules, there were always some ''flexibility'' and it is why the refit ship would have had SOME blue, but not the whole hull. Berain himself sent a proposition to the king which laid out in one drawing several possibilities...but no blue (see pic). So, in answer to your inquiry, the blue color was used on a very limited basis because of its cost. Blue only became affordable early in the 18th century, when the ''prussian blue'' was discovered... the two last pics depict an avenue for the decor's color

And no, the Tanneron at the museum is not blue.... The hull is ocre yellow with black and different wood tinits as the hull is only a vehicle for the remarkable bow and stern sculptings
Lastly, if any of you reading this want a copy of my document, you're welcomed to ask for one:)

View attachment 344463

View attachment 344464

View attachment 344465

View attachment 344466

View attachment 344467
I believe that the Heller plastic kit more closely represents the second ship named Le Soleil Royal built in the 1690s. Do you have any color information about SR II?

Bill
 
Back
Top