Soleil Royal - Heller 1/100 Back to work!

dockattner said:
If I could... I believe Frank is saying that he is most knowledgeable about - and has resources that pertain to - ships that were built in England. Soleil Royal is a ship of French origin. I hope this helps.
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I understand, but I think everyone is missing the point that I’m trying to make here, I just need help in understanding the Heller model that I have instructions. There’s a rigging table that I don’t understand and trying to find someone that have built the Heller Soleil 1/100 scale model that can help me explaining the instructions and mostly this table.
 
Hello E2Karnivor,

I understand your point of view, and, I do consider Heller Soleil Royal to be a wonderful and unique kit, from an artistic interpretation. This by itself makes it, an amazing work of art. The carvings on the bow and stern are something that must be unique in the hobby industry. The various human and allegorical figures are beautifully detailed and proportioned. Even at today standards only a few Admiralty models, nearly all of which, by the way, are to 1/48th scale, can boast carved detail that is superior to this.

Unfortunately, not everything is as good as the carving works, namely the rigging! The rigging instructions, while impressively complicated, are abysmally inaccurate. This is a French vessel from the end of the 17th century, which were very different from a British vessel of the same period. There is much more literature for British vessels of this period than of French vessels, this is why this aspect was mentioned in previous posts.

You can follow Heller instructions and you will end up with a rigged ship, but this would not be anywhere accurate as it “should be”. But you can do it.

Regarding your direct questions:

1 - Your pictures 97 and 98, refer to the fore and after tackles, these were used for lifting cargo purposes, and normally they came directly from the mast head and were attached to the main channels. This is totally non existent in Heller instructions. You really must support yourself in some kind of monograph support to be able to fully understand this, please take a look at this text:

1CF778F2-288C-4EF3-9B9B-28AC19F294C4.jpeg

2 - the tables are very much unusable, but if you want to understand
it, please follow this:

Exemple “Cordage 1061” (table 1 entry).

Usable in versions 1-2-3, please take a look at the following picture (table 2 entry).

D05E7EE9-F8DB-4114-9851-375B97724F68.jpeg

Use a thread with a length of 800 mm and a diameter of 0,3 mm (table 3 and 5 entry).

This thread is mentioned in pages 130, 132, 137 etc.. (table entry 4).

From cordage 1008, it runs from block e206, block e208 and block e214 and finishes in a14 (aboutissement des cordages).

B8E43536-F08A-42AF-B2F3-627114EB15BA.jpeg

This is not easy to understand, not even slightly accurate, but you can follow it.

I suggest, if you really want to make the rigging straight from the box, to use the original french instructions, they are more “understandable”.

41795930-BAE5-48C7-8E6F-11B5A05F4047.jpeg

This kit takes a lot of work to make it fairly accurate, but as I said you can build it and rig it straight from the box, and it will also look very good. Try to understand the instructions with the guidelines presented here. I hope it will help you!

And don’t forget the best advice for any SR builder: don’t give up no matter what!!

All the best from Portugal!
 
E2karnivor said:
I understand, but I think everyone is missing the point that I’m trying to make here, I just need help in understanding the Heller model that I have instructions. There’s a rigging table that I don’t understand and trying to find someone that have built the Heller Soleil 1/100 scale model that can help me explaining the instructions and mostly this table.
Click to expand...
good morning E2Folgado, the problem with the rigging is solved, if you are interested send me your email

SR.jpg
 
Dfolgado said:
Hello E2Karnivor,

I understand your point of view, and, I do consider Heller Soleil Royal to be a wonderful and unique kit, from an artistic interpretation. This by itself makes it, an amazing work of art. The carvings on the bow and stern are something that must be unique in the hobby industry. The various human and allegorical figures are beautifully detailed and proportioned. Even at today standards only a few Admiralty models, nearly all of which, by the way, are to 1/48th scale, can boast carved detail that is superior to this.

Unfortunately, not everything is as good as the carving works, namely the rigging! The rigging instructions, while impressively complicated, are abysmally inaccurate. This is a French vessel from the end of the 17th century, which were very different from a British vessel of the same period. There is much more literature for British vessels of this period than of French vessels, this is why this aspect was mentioned in previous posts.

You can follow Heller instructions and you will end up with a rigged ship, but this would not be anywhere accurate as it “should be”. But you can do it.

Regarding your direct questions:

1 - Your pictures 97 and 98, refer to the fore and after tackles, these were used for lifting cargo purposes, and normally they came directly from the mast head and were attached to the main channels. This is totally non existent in Heller instructions. You really must support yourself in some kind of monograph support to be able to fully understand this, please take a look at this text:

View attachment 293967

2 - the tables are very much unusable, but if you want to understand
it, please follow this:

Exemple “Cordage 1061” (table 1 entry).

Usable in versions 1-2-3, please take a look at the following picture (table 2 entry).

View attachment 293970

Use a thread with a length of 800 mm and a diameter of 0,3 mm (table 3 and 5 entry).

This thread is mentioned in pages 130, 132, 137 etc.. (table entry 4).

From cordage 1008, it runs from block e206, block e208 and block e214 and finishes in a14 (aboutissement des cordages).

View attachment 293971

This is not easy to understand, not even slightly accurate, but you can follow it.

I suggest, if you really want to make the rigging straight from the box, to use the original french instructions, they are more “understandable”.

View attachment 293972

This kit takes a lot of work to make it fairly accurate, but as I said you can build it and rig it straight from the box, and it will also look very good. Try to understand the instructions with the guidelines presented here. I hope it will help you!

And don’t forget the best advice for any SR builder: don’t give up no matter what!!

All the best from Portugal!
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot, you’re post really help a lot. The book you posted with the print has a general rigging system for all ships or does it have also the specific rigging for the Soleil?
 
E2karnivor said:
Thanks a lot, you’re post really help a lot. The book you posted with the print has a general rigging system for all ships or does it have also the specific rigging for the Soleil?
Click to expand...

The Anderson book is a generic book about rigging in the spritsail topmast days, and it considers all schools, British and Continental.

The best references to the Soleil Royal rigging in particular are the French Ancre monographs, namely: Le Saint Phillipe 1693, L’ambitieux 1680, and Le Francois 1683.

None of those are 100% representative of the SR, but they are a great source of information. If you follow these, you will end up with a very satisfactory job.

But, as I said before, if you just follow Heller guidelines with some adaptations here and there, you’ll end up with a great piece that will not disappoints anyone.

Just have fun with your SR, that’s the all point of it!

All the best!
 
Dfolgado said:
The Anderson book is a generic book about rigging in the spritsail topmast days, and it considers all schools, British and Continental.

The best references to the Soleil Royal rigging in particular are the French Ancre monographs, namely: Le Saint Phillipe 1693, L’ambitieux 1680, and Le Francois 1683.

None of those are 100% representative of the SR, but they are a great source of information. If you follow these, you will end up with a very satisfactory job.

But, as I said before, if you just follow Heller guidelines with some adaptations here and there, you’ll end up with a great piece that will not disappoints anyone.

Just have fun with your SR, that’s the all point of it!

All the best!
Click to expand...
Awesome, you’ve been super helpful. I am super OCD and like to do things not only super real but also accurate. That’s why I’m also looking for the best realistic looking rigging blocks and wanting to make it as accurate as I can do. I won’t sleep if I know it’s not right.
 
E2karnivor said:
Awesome, you’ve been super helpful. I am super OCD and like to do things not only super real but also accurate. That’s why I’m also looking for the best realistic looking rigging blocks and wanting to make it as accurate as I can do. I won’t sleep if I know it’s not right.
Click to expand...
Good evening E2karnivor, I understand your purpose, I ask you, do you want to perform the equipment as per Kit differently? If at Kit you can post the information sheets in full?
 
Frank48 said:
Good evening E2karnivor, I understand your purpose, I ask you, do you want to perform the equipment as per Kit differently? If at Kit you can post the information sheets in full?
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Sorry, don’t Understand your questions. What exactly are you asking to perform equipment as per kit differently?
 
E2karnivor said:
Sorry, don’t Understand your questions. What exactly are you asking to perform equipment as per kit differently?
Click to expand...
Good evening E2karnivor, I understand your purpose, I ask you, do you want to perform the equipment as per Kit or otherwise? If at Kit you can post the information sheets in full?
 
Frank48 said:
Good evening E2karnivor, I understand your purpose, I ask you, do you want to perform the equipment as per Kit or otherwise? If at Kit you can post the information sheets in full?
Click to expand...
Again, I do not understand your question, what exactly are you asking?
 
Philski said:
It appears he's asking you if you want to rig using the kit and it's indtructions, or another method (a different ship design).....
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No, I want to understand the rigging table in the manual so I can understand where each rigging rope goes and comes from. Also at this point I can decide if this is accurate enough and leave it as is or research a little more and try to bring it as accurate as the original shipper was. But I still need to understand the table in the instructions so I understand what it means and what it’s asking to do. I’m not sure if that’s the thing he’s asking to show the whole sheet meaning a picture of the whole table.
 
E2karnivor said:
This is the whole table

View attachment 294202
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Hello this is my partial interpretation of the table but, I reserve for lack of other feedback, 1 fixing seat - 2 blocks - 3 line length - 4 fenders -5 line diameter - 6 position of the blocks. Good morning E2karnivor, forgot to tell you that each record is a complete maneuver with the annexes
 
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E2karnivor said:
This is the whole table

View attachment 294202
Click to expand...
Good day,
Dear E2karnivor,
This is very interesting project!!!
And rising questions about how to rigg SR Hellers model Allways interesting for me...
I love this kit very much and have plans to assemble it somewhere in the future :)))...
meanwhile i try to use any opportynities just to watch and understand what and how other our colleques do it :)))
From my personal point of vew, idea to use kit righing instruction and kits tables just useless waist of time...
because you still need to read Anderson book first ,in purpose to understand what about hellers rigging diagrams and tables saying In their N'os... giving nos to each lines instead of call them in normal standart ways understandable for everyone... This is something ...don't undestand why designers desided to do it in such strange way :)))
But ok ,look, there is funny thing from my point of vew, when You completed reading Anderson book , where he explain purpose and function of every rope , same ropes which are more or less correctly given on Hellers common rigging plan, As I could see...
You will be not needed in these hellers rigging plans and tables given in Nos because all necessary info already contains in his book...And You will knew and understood rigging 17 century , sufficient to do it yourself without hellers tables ...
but better use that Anderson book where he talks about common rigging practice but not that another his book version entirely devoted to the english rigging practice...He has two books devoted 17 century rigging...continental+ english rigging, and another book - only about englishbrigging methods...
I would like to pay your attention to the post 207 by Dfolgado and his recommendations to use ankre,s books in addition to the Anderson book...
and I would like , for more historic accuracy, to mention Albom de Colbert reprint( it could be found in ancre's books shop as well) which need to be used as well - this is one more perfect source of exactly french rigginng of SR period., and it is original source of 17 century ,not modern interpretation..
and one more ankre's publisher , Jean Boudriot - Le Vaisseau trois-ponts du chevalier de Tourville (1680г.)!!!
Where He gives also detailed description of typical france 17 century rigging in diagrams and with normal names of each ropes...
standing,running and sails rigging , all You will find in this book...
together with Anderson book it should work as perfect combination...consider You mentions you like to be perfectly in your job/Heller SR model assembling... :)))
Summarise, by my personal opinion, all this 5 sources completely , lets say 200% ,will cover all possible questions which could appears diring hellers SR model rigging...
Wish You all the best!!!
Kirill
 
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kirill4 said:
Good day,
Dear E2karnivor,
This is very interesting project!!!
And rising questions about how to rigg SR Hellers model Allways interesting for me...
I love this kit very much and have plans to assemble it somewhere in the future :)))...
meanwhile i try to use any opportynities just to watch and understand what and how other our colleques do it :)))
From my personal point of vew, idea to use kit righing instruction and kits tables just useless waist of time...
because you still need to read Anderson book first ,in purpose to understand what about hellers rigging diagrams and tables saying In their N'os... giving nos to each lines instead of call them in normal standart ways understandable for everyone... This is something ...don't undestand why designers desided to do it in such strange way :)))
But ok ,look, there is funny thing from my point of vew, when You completed reading Anderson book , where he explain purpose and function of every rope , same ropes which are more or less correctly given on Hellers common rigging plan, As I could see...
You will be not needed in these hellers rigging plans and tables given in Nos because all necessary info already contains in his book...And You will knew and understood rigging 17 century , sufficient to do it yourself without hellers tables ...
but better use that Anderson book where he talks about common rigging practice but not that another his book version entirely devoted to the english rigging practice...He has two books devoted 17 century rigging...continental+ english rigging, and another book - only about englishbrigging methods...
I would like to pay your attention to the post 207 by Dfolgado and his recommendations to use ankre,s books in addition to the Anderson book...
and I would like , for more historic accuracy, to mention Albom de Colbert reprint( it could be found in ancre's books shop as well) which need to be used as well - this is one more perfect source of exactly french rigginng of SR period., and it is original source of 17 century ,not modern interpretation..
and one more ankre's publisher , Jean Boudriot - Le Vaisseau trois-ponts du chevalier de Tourville (1680г.)!!!
Where He gives also detailed description of typical france 17 century rigging in diagrams and with normal names of each ropes...
standing,running and sails rigging , all You will find in this book...
together with Anderson book it should work as perfect combination...consider You mentions you like to be perfectly in your job/Heller SR model assembling... :)))
Summarise, by my personal opinion, all this 5 sources completely , lets say 200% ,will cover all possible questions which could appears diring hellers SR model rigging...
Wish You all the best!!!
Kirill
Click to expand...
Good afternoon Kirill, all right what you have explained but, what is effective E2karnivor specifically asked for clarification on the interpretation of the table.
 
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