This is some great piece of information! I have been struggling with all my references to understand where everything goes… thanks a lot Kirill!
Soleil Royal - Heller 1/100 Back to work!
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This is some great piece of information! I have been struggling with all my references to understand where everything goes… thanks a lot Kirill!
This is all very helpful, as I no longer have my kit instructions. Are these the standard kit belay points, or does this diagram account for the more correct guidance found in RC Anderson and James Lees?
Still working in the head…
Gammoning done
Head grating done
Head timbers installed
Head stay done on both sides of the head
Rack block secure both sides gammoning
”Garde corps“ in place from sprit top to the breakhead bulkhead I had to take some guesses here, because there is not a lot of info regarding this rope setup
Please tell me your thought about this…
Gammoning done
Head grating done
Head timbers installed
Head stay done on both sides of the head
Rack block secure both sides gammoning
”Garde corps“ in place from sprit top to the breakhead bulkhead
I had to take some guesses here, because there is not a lot of info regarding this rope setup Please tell me your thought about this…
My over-riding thought is “Oh, WOW, this really looks great!!”
The oxidation and weathering, and rust streaking from the gunport hinges are all extremely well done, as well. You are a masterful painter, Duarte.
The oxidation and weathering, and rust streaking from the gunport hinges are all extremely well done, as well. You are a masterful painter, Duarte.
Looks Great!!!
I like it very much!
))
I like it very much!
))
Hi Marc!
That diagrams which I ' ve posted...
As I understood , it was just attempt to convert Hellers rigging diagrams to something more "readable" based on information from Anderson book...
This is just one of possible arrangement , show the points where to secure running rigging end... as I knew, author made a couple of voyages on Gotteborg II replica,special for study how all those rigging works on real square rigged vessel and where they are secured... I think it is nice drwng ,from this point of vew ...
From another, my personal ... there are a few doubtfull moments... if compare this arrangements to some diagrams from Аncre published books...
In france sources( Ankre) ... if You look at deck... there will be much,much less knigts on deck visiable... but in Jan G. Plan there are too much such knights...
Than we could study photo of deck arrangements of William Rex famous model,for example, also could see not too much knights on deck...
And some books of Jan Boudriot, where he carefully studies Sun King vessels ... also couldn't see deck knights in such quantity...
I value Jan G. work very much because he made part of the Heller's SR rigging questions much more easy for understanding... in case somebody will want to follow Hellers rigging plan...
But for me personaly, I would like to try to use rigging plans straight from J. Boudriot book " ...Vaisseau à trois ponts fin XVIIe L'Ambitieux..."
...or from this recently published monograph THE SAINT PHILIPPE 1693
Here is original fragment from deck plan Le Francois 1683 Ancre book, and some hand made drwng made one of modeller, for the same vessel...unfortunately I don't know who it was... but You could see difference with Jan G. righing plan, there are much less knights on deck...
That diagrams which I ' ve posted...
As I understood , it was just attempt to convert Hellers rigging diagrams to something more "readable" based on information from Anderson book...
This is just one of possible arrangement , show the points where to secure running rigging end... as I knew, author made a couple of voyages on Gotteborg II replica,special for study how all those rigging works on real square rigged vessel and where they are secured... I think it is nice drwng ,from this point of vew ...
From another, my personal ... there are a few doubtfull moments... if compare this arrangements to some diagrams from Аncre published books...
In france sources( Ankre) ... if You look at deck... there will be much,much less knigts on deck visiable... but in Jan G. Plan there are too much such knights...
Than we could study photo of deck arrangements of William Rex famous model,for example, also could see not too much knights on deck...
And some books of Jan Boudriot, where he carefully studies Sun King vessels ... also couldn't see deck knights in such quantity...
I value Jan G. work very much because he made part of the Heller's SR rigging questions much more easy for understanding... in case somebody will want to follow Hellers rigging plan...
But for me personaly, I would like to try to use rigging plans straight from J. Boudriot book " ...Vaisseau à trois ponts fin XVIIe L'Ambitieux..."
...or from this recently published monograph THE SAINT PHILIPPE 1693Here is original fragment from deck plan Le Francois 1683 Ancre book, and some hand made drwng made one of modeller, for the same vessel...unfortunately I don't know who it was... but You could see difference with Jan G. righing plan, there are much less knights on deck...
I think that you have to look at all those references and still you will have a lot of “educated“ guess work in front of you!
Rigging is a very complex matter, and to represent it absolutely correct is almost impossible in my view. But at the same time you don’t need to be that absolutely correct, because when you look at the big picture and if you can’t see any huge error, no one will tell the difference. For example in the case of Heller Soleil Royal, if you do the rigging according to instructions (I’m not sure if this is even possible, because there are so many dead ends unexplained…), even so, you’ll end up with a pretty decent model kit of a sailing vessel! Does it have something to do with reality, is it functional, is it done according to 17th century procedures? Absolutely not, but it still looks very good in your living room.
As I mentioned earlier I use mainly the ANCRE references, L’Ambitieux, Le Saint Phillipe, Le Francois, La Belle, then Dr. Anderson book, Wolfram Mondfeld, etc… but you still don’t have a total clear idea of the belaying pins diagrams and all the deck arrangements. L’Ambitieux does not have any scheme with belaying pins, Saint Phillipe have, but there are still many things that are missing, the rigging in Saint Phillipe is not so complete and harder to understand that in the case of L’Ambitieux for example. There are very few drawings on Saint Phillipe monograph. L’Ambitieux is easier to follow, but you can’t figure where most of the standing and running rigging will attach to…
That’s why this is all so interesting I guess… the only secret is never to loose the motivation…
Rigging is a very complex matter, and to represent it absolutely correct is almost impossible in my view. But at the same time you don’t need to be that absolutely correct, because when you look at the big picture and if you can’t see any huge error, no one will tell the difference. For example in the case of Heller Soleil Royal, if you do the rigging according to instructions (I’m not sure if this is even possible, because there are so many dead ends unexplained…), even so, you’ll end up with a pretty decent model kit of a sailing vessel! Does it have something to do with reality, is it functional, is it done according to 17th century procedures? Absolutely not, but it still looks very good in your living room.
As I mentioned earlier I use mainly the ANCRE references, L’Ambitieux, Le Saint Phillipe, Le Francois, La Belle, then Dr. Anderson book, Wolfram Mondfeld, etc… but you still don’t have a total clear idea of the belaying pins diagrams and all the deck arrangements. L’Ambitieux does not have any scheme with belaying pins, Saint Phillipe have, but there are still many things that are missing, the rigging in Saint Phillipe is not so complete and harder to understand that in the case of L’Ambitieux for example. There are very few drawings on Saint Phillipe monograph. L’Ambitieux is easier to follow, but you can’t figure where most of the standing and running rigging will attach to…
That’s why this is all so interesting I guess… the only secret is never to loose the motivation…
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Good afternoon, from the monographs you will find the references but not the paths of the various maneuvers, to overcome this deficiency you should look for a book that explains step by step how to perform the path
That’s absolutely correct! Do you know some of those books that explains the manoeuvres paths?
Hi!
)) ... yees ... ))...indeed..
I was thinking / hope that diagramms from St. Phillipe will close all possible righing questions, but You said .. no ...
((( I don't have this book under hand right now), but it 's sad...
Ok , than
when( in advance )model construction will reach its rigging stage, than we have to seat and prepair our own rigging plans...and stopbwalking around and around))
It could be mix of Jan G. belaying plan + L’Ambitieux rigging plan...+... all books mentioned above...)) ! I think ,Anderson , in priority...
Actually , there are a few ,limited q-ty of the same ropes only, which need to be repeated on each mast... all of them well known... the only small matter remains, to find where to belaying them...))
By the way, in the Marquardt K.H. book( there is his book in english exists as well, nice, big and reach illustrated! ) , there is nice belaing plan of continental vessel as well ,and book itself - perfect source of necessary information! It just expands period up to complete 18th century ,continue from where Anderson stopped.. at least a lot of information regarding rigging of the end of 17th century could be found there
as well!.
Scans from russuan translated version, low quality unfortunatelly...
)) ... yees ... ))...indeed..I was thinking / hope that diagramms from St. Phillipe will close all possible righing questions, but You said .. no ...
((( I don't have this book under hand right now), but it 's sad...Ok , than
when( in advance )model construction will reach its rigging stage, than we have to seat and prepair our own rigging plans...and stopbwalking around and around
))It could be mix of Jan G. belaying plan + L’Ambitieux rigging plan...+... all books mentioned above...
)) ! I think ,Anderson , in priority...Actually , there are a few ,limited q-ty of the same ropes only, which need to be repeated on each mast... all of them well known... the only small matter remains, to find where to belaying them...
))By the way, in the Marquardt K.H. book( there is his book in english exists as well, nice, big and reach illustrated! ) , there is nice belaing plan of continental vessel as well ,and book itself - perfect source of necessary information! It just expands period up to complete 18th century ,continue from where Anderson stopped.. at least a lot of information regarding rigging of the end of 17th century could be found there
as well!.Scans from russuan translated version, low quality unfortunatelly...
Hi!
I was thinking / hope that diagramms from St. Phillipe will close all possible righing questions, but You said .. no ...
Ok , than
when( in advance )model construction will reach its rigging stage, than we have to seat and prepair our own rigging plans...and stopbwalking around and around
It could be mix of Jan G. belaying plan + L’Ambitieux rigging plan...+... all books mentioned above...
Actually , there are a few ,limited q-ty of the same ropes only, which need to be repeated on each mast... all of them well known... the only small matter remains, to find where to belaying them...
By the way, in the Marquardt K.H. book( there is his book in english exists as well, nice, big and reach illustrated! ) , there is nice belaing plan of continental vessel as well ,and book itself - perfect source of necessary information! It just expands period up to complete 18th century ,continue from where Anderson stopped.. at least a lot of information regarding rigging of the end of 17th century could be found there View attachment 304917View attachment 304918View attachment 304919as well!.
Scans from russuan translated version, low quality unfortunatelly...
Hello Kirill,
I have that book in English, that’s probably the best belaying plan that I have found for a 1700’s continental ship! Great reference!
Here it is the belaying plan in English, for anyone who might be interested:
Thank you, Kirill, for these references. I also disagree with the profusion of single knight posts on the Heller kit. I will probably stick more closely to the rigging for L’Ambiteaux.
Good evening!
Maybe Somebody could translate/ write english name of each lines /just write above original french name ,on that two belaying plans/ hand made sketches I posted above... and repost them again,with english transcription...?
I meant ,somebody who fluent in both english and french ,without necessary to spend time for studyand use dictionaries...?
Maybe Somebody could translate/ write english name of each lines /just write above original french name ,on that two belaying plans/ hand made sketches I posted above... and repost them again,with english transcription...?
I meant ,somebody who fluent in both english and french ,without necessary to spend time for studyand use dictionaries...?
Hello Kirill
I would be happy to assist and make this translation
Please let me know what is to be translated
Hello KirilIn addition to my remarks above ... as I imagine how to rigg SR model... Instead of trying to use hellers plans and table...
#1 copy and print or keep it digital one of Le Saint Phillipe 1693, L’ambitieux 1680, and Le Francois 1683 plans... I think I prefer 2nd one from this list
#create exell standart rigging tables with automatic calculations - these are free for download on the site ,
one for scaled spars and masts sizes and
another one for scaled rigging lines and blocks sizes with names and position Nos on the drawings ...
# to make 3 or 4 separate rigging drawings/ or print out copies( masts and spars , standing rigging ,running rigging and sails rigging) in the same way as J.Budriot did it for his L’ambitieux 1680/ Jean Boudriot - Le Vaisseau trois-ponts du chevalier de Tourville (1680г.)
And rigg your own model in clear and easy ways ...
And one more... hellers tables ,even You will find all that crasy numeros nos lines correctly, will not help you with assembling another sailing model, but using Anderson book and another books mentioned above, will help a lot!
Some mentioned above drwngs
Фото из Облака Mail.ru Album de Colbert
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Jean Boudriot - Le Vaisseau trois-ponts du chevalier de Tourville (1680г.) - 1998
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Папка из Облака Mail.ru The rigging of ships. In the days of the Spritsail topmast 1600-1720 - Anderson
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Трехдечники Турвиля. Редакция 2.3.pdf
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From talking to Ancre earlier today, I understand that the Saint Philippe rigging should be quite close to the one of Soleil Royal.
You make reference to this but I do not see any doc related to the Saint Philippe in the links that you are providing.
Am I misleading?
WOuld you have this sail rigging plan?
Good day,
Dear Gilbert,
Thank You very much for reply!
It would be really helpfull!...
My idea was... open attached pictures in ... lets say, Paint... and wtite english name of each belaying point near by to french name ,which are already on the drawing... than it will be like small french-english dictionary ... after completion , to repost corrected pictures again ,here...
This belaying plan( found it somewhere on another modelers forum in free access, somebody of french modellers did perfect job !!!) related to" Le Francois " model, but I think it could be easily adapted to SR rigging...at least sails plans of these two are identical...
Ps
I have St.Philippe book...but temporary I'm too far from home till july( I'm seamam, we are sailing now)and this source unreachable ... in general , it was my idea ,to use St.Ph. rigging plan as one of
nice source of information for SR rigging...
Dear Gilbert,
Thank You very much for reply!
It would be really helpfull!...
My idea was... open attached pictures in ... lets say, Paint... and wtite english name of each belaying point near by to french name ,which are already on the drawing... than it will be like small french-english dictionary ... after completion , to repost corrected pictures again ,here...
This belaying plan( found it somewhere on another modelers forum in free access, somebody of french modellers did perfect job !!!) related to" Le Francois " model, but I think it could be easily adapted to SR rigging...at least sails plans of these two are identical...
Ps
I have St.Philippe book...but temporary I'm too far from home till july( I'm seamam, we are sailing now)and this source unreachable ... in general , it was my idea ,to use St.Ph. rigging plan as one of
nice source of information for SR rigging...
Last edited:
Hey KirillGood day,
Dear Gilbert,
Thank You very much for reply!
It would be really helpfull!...
My idea was... open attached pictures in ... lets say, Paint... and wtite english name of each belaying point near by to french name ,which are already on the drawing... than it will be like small french-english dictionary ... after completion , to repost corrected pictures again ,here...
This belaying plan( found it somewhere on another modelers forum in free access, somebody of french modellers did perfect job !!!) related to" Le Francois " model, but I think it could be easily adapted to SR rigging...at least sails plans of these two are identical...
Ps
I have St.Philippe book...but temporary I'm too far from home till july( I'm seamam, we are sailing now)and this source unreachable ... in general , it was my idea ,to use St.Ph. rigging plan as one of View attachment 305077View attachment 305078View attachment 305086nice source of information for SR rigging...
Sorry to be slow on this ask
I looked at it during the last few days but I have to say that I am not really able to accurately translate many of the terms
I don't even know them in French!!
I want to apologize
Good day Gilbert,
Thank You for reply,
We will do something... I think there will be adopted names, in english version
Thank You for reply,
We will do something... I think there will be adopted names, in english version
MONOGRAPHIE DU FRANCOIS - Vaisseau 5ème rang 1683
or here https://ancre.fr/en/basic-books/65-vocabulaire-de-marine-bilingue-angais-francais.html , but it is longer way...
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Thank you so much.. God Bless you everyone