Stern Decorations - Hahn Drawings - Prototypes

To further show you the extreme accuracy of CAD designed parts, take a look at this. Dave's original drawings are in 1:32 scale. One of our SoS members, Brian077 is building the HMS Alfred in 1:64 scale. Brian told me the columns would need to be 22mm tall. I took Dave's drawings and scaled them to 1:64 scale by reducing them 50% then cut them out on the laser with no other modifications.

I just now put a ruler against the center column and look at the result.

IMG_0293.jpg
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
as a CAD draftsman i have to be able to create drawings that are workable and to do that i need to understand how the laser software sees my drawing.

top left is a line simple the laser knows to go from point A to point B

next is a series of lines i can create that with lines or polylines and then edit the polylines into one object

next is a spline and like the above poly lines the spline will used the points and create a smooth curve

to the right

a simple arc cad will create and arc from the 3 points

next a polyline and below it is a polyline that has been edited, you can see the same points where CAD used those point and created a smooth curving line. other programs may or may not see the editing the same as CAD

View attachment 163361

doing a detailed drawing it may take all the above types of lines to produce the object. You can see in the little bud the amount of points. In a final drawing there could be hundreds of these points.
Does a laser start and stop at every point?

View attachment 163362

zooming in on that bud which is only a small part of the drawing and you can see how many point there are. The overall drawing of the vine can have a couple hundred points how does this affect a laser if at all.

I have done drawings and sent them off to a laser cutter and they told me the sheer amount of data is choking the laser, it can not deal with that amount of points


View attachment 163363


We have a number of CAD people here on the forum so knowing how to do a drawing that can be cut is a good thing to know
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Very interesting I’ll keep following
I’ve been using acad since it was first issued for use. So any info you might need I’ll see if I can answer. I also was thinking of Cnc the hms victory stearn section for better details at 1:98 scale my neighbor has a cnc setup in his garage and I’ll stop buy and discuss with him
 
Dickiiee44 said:
Cnc the hms victory stearn section for better details at 1:98 scale
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Cool.... go explore it!!! Be forewarned though... CNC details at 1:98 scale is gonna require some expensive carving bits and very precise stepper motors on the CNC rig itself..... Most CNC machines that are made for furniture or general woodworking are not suited for serious scale model work.
 
Mike this is fantastic stuff, I have long wanted to scratch build a ship, but anything with complex stern decorations & quarters, figureheads, etc, has been put on the 'back burner' as my carving skills are close to '0'. The possibilities with your talents and equipment (3D CNC, laser, etc) seem endless! :)
 
Let me just throw this out there...
I think it's just as important to know "what we don't know" about something as it is to know "what we know." i.e... I learned drafting back in the day. Computers were not commercially available at the time. I'm talking the 1960's. Professionals at that time were divided into "planners and thinkers", "scientists and evaluators", and "builders and labor". The draftsmen were part of the "planners and thinkers". We took input and ideas and transformed them into visual reference. Those plans commonly went from there to engineers (the "scientists...) to evaluate for structural soundness and material, then from there to the "builders..." who put those ideas into 3D solid form. I learned quickly about "objects". Drafting an electronic or electrical circuit required different "obj" than drafting an elevation for a building made of brick, or a plumbing system in a sewage treatment plant.

Personal computers made a lot of the tedium obsolete. My drafting morphed into CAD (in the early days of CAD..) where I started to learn about the power of the computer chip and also about the unrelenting necessity for ACCURACY. Computers did only what you told them to. If I gave a wrong instruction or selected an incorrect obj or library, then..... well, "garbage in = garbage out". I quickly realized that computers were developing faster than I could keep up. I also realized that I didn't really care.!! As long as I was "literate", that was good enough. In other words, I recognized "what I didn't know." This was the proverbial "light bulb" for me; An epiphany that freed my mind from the constant battering and mental manipulation required to produce a computer rendering, when all I really wanted was something that served its purpose and looked good doing it.

Here's the point. In today's world of modeling, it is possible for a dedicated computer "draftsman" to design something and "model" it in such a way that another computer professional can take that rendering and produce 3D output. I think it's enough that we know that. Most modelers are artisans, artists, and history buffs. For the vast majority of modelers, the interest centers on how "realistic" the item is. It is not quite as important to know the intricacies of "how" it happens. So, it's important for me to know "what I don't know". I realize that I will never know what Janos and Dave know....and that's okay.!! I will never know what Mike knows about CNC and laser.... and that too is okay.!! As long as I know "what I don't know", I won't be led astray.

Now, I profess to having an interest in this subject. As a draftsman from years past, an interest remains. I am going to continue to follow this because of that interest. But my underlying interest is still ship modeling.!!

Okay... Off my soapbox. You computer professionals, Carry On.!!
 
Hobbit99 said:
Off my soapbox. You computer professionals, Carry On.!!
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All great comments Howard. The reason we are doing this thread is to help other modelers understand what goes into the design and fabrication of a high-end kit. Dave, myself and others get requests all the time to create simple parts for models and occasionally the modelers do not realize just how much time, skill, and money it takes to do this work. Some think it's "just the computer" doing everything. Well, that is true to an extent. But, mostly the computer just helps us speed up the traditional tedious processes that you used back in the 60's. Drafting is still drafting, design is still design, fabrication is still fabrication... none of that has changed. But we are seeing model builders today demanding more than just the basic kits of years past. They want more. To get more requires sophisticated software and hardware to produce those results. This thread is about showing how that is done. It is also an attempt to recruit those people out there with these same skillsets who typically remain quiet. There are a lot of CAD draftsmen and 3D artists who do not have lasers and CNC machines to create parts from their drawings. On the flip side, there are people like myself who have decades of model building and practical fabrication experience but are limited in 3D artistic skills. By collaborating together, we can all produce new and innovative products that go beyond anything you see on the market. The model kit market by and large produces on a "quantity for profit" type of method. Our idea is "low quantity, no profit, HIGHER quality" method. Make sense?

Our PRIMARY interest is in model building!!!! I am a RETIRED computer professional. I am now a full time model builder and am trying to give back to the community by sharing my skillset.

.... ok, off my soapbox!! LOL

Sail on..
 
As a modeler of more than 60 years and an artist for nearly the same amount of time I am fascinated by the expertise that we are seeing in this thread. I know how much work goes into designing a model as I designed and published a paper model some years ago which took over 9 mos to design and prototype. It was all hand drawn - there were no personal computers then to help . The computer has changed all of that in so many ways and I applaud the talent we see here.
 
mrshanks said:
Our PRIMARY interest is in model building!!!! I am a RETIRED computer professional. I am now a full time model builder and am trying to give back to the community by sharing my skillset.

.... ok, off my soapbox!! LOL

Sail on..
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Makes perfect sense....
I absolutely recognize the desire to build knowledge and share skills. We (retired folks..) frequently own a disproportionate amount of the knowledge with fewer avenues to elevate and proliferate. This thread does some of that. I find it intensely interesting that there are significant numbers of folks here who have both a professed interest in computerized design and production (the "NEW"..) and in ships and history (the "OLD"..). Opposing viewpoints in search of the same truth....:)
 
Jim J said:
As a modeler of more than 60 years and an artist for nearly the same amount of time I am fascinated by the expertise that we are seeing in this thread. I know how much work goes into designing a model as I designed and published a paper model some years ago which took over 9 mos to design and prototype. It was all hand drawn - there were no personal computers then to help . The computer has changed all of that in so many ways and I applaud the talent we see here.
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You are SO right. This thread IS a fascinating study, especially in the area of "developing" history as we watch the 'highly unusual' become commonplace. I suspect there is even more talent here yet to be discovered, and we are indeed fortunate to have these folks available to us. My efforts feel insignificant in comparison.
 
mrshanks said:
I see them more as complimentary viewpoints. You will find a lot of opposing viewpoints on some other forum... Pirate Flag Pirate Flag Pirate Flag
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Well, I guess.... I don't belong to any other forums, so I am not aware...

"Opposing" as in 0-1; up-down; right-left; yes-no.... Opposite ends of the same truth or reality. Both approaching common ground using different avenues. In this case, individuals who love old sailing ships and history inextricably bound together with CAD and CNC. A bit paradoxical, but it works and I'm happy for it.!
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
to extrude say a piece of the stem the shape is drawn and you just give the Z a dimension like this example. This is a basic and can be done in 99% of all 3D software.

View attachment 163872


more complex shapes are first drawn in 2D the extruded

View attachment 163873


this is the basic block piece, block refers to a sculptures term (blocking out) a forum or roughing it out to get the shape. Detail is added by rounding out the edges and adding detail.
Once this is created and saved as a STL file a maker should be able to CNC this piece

View attachment 163877
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The question is not a simple extrusion, this is basic stuff. The question is how do you create an extrusion between two free surfaces - one being the irregular, 'free' shape of the hull to which the gallery should fit and the other again irregular shape (which though can be probably described by a number of 'regular' shapes like cylinders and cones) which describes the outside of the gallery.
János
 
janos said:
The question is not a simple extrusion
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I understand exactly what you are asking about Janos. Yes, Vectric Aspire can do all this. But, since I don't use Solidworks and you don't use Aspire it might be difficult for us to talk in a common language. And since what you ask is a more advanced topic than where were are at in this thread I would really like to rest on that idea for now and wait until we progress further. For the benefit of others. We are still on laser etching and cutting. The things you are referring to involve 3D CNC carving. It will come in time. Eventually, we will take Dave's exact piece of 2D artwork he has for the lower quarter gallery of the Confederacy and turn it into a compound 3D shape that we will then CNC carve so that it will fit a physical model. The term "extrude" is not actually the proper term and that is probably where I threw you off. My mistake.
 
mrshanks said:
All great comments Howard. The reason we are doing this thread is to help other modelers understand what goes into the design and fabrication of a high-end kit. Dave, myself and others get requests all the time to create simple parts for models and occasionally the modelers do not realize just how much time, skill, and money it takes to do this work. Some think it's "just the computer" doing everything. Well, that is true to an extent. But, mostly the computer just helps us speed up the traditional tedious processes that you used back in the 60's. Drafting is still drafting, design is still design, fabrication is still fabrication... none of that has changed. But we are seeing model builders today demanding more than just the basic kits of years past. They want more. To get more requires sophisticated software and hardware to produce those results. This thread is about showing how that is done. It is also an attempt to recruit those people out there with these same skillsets who typically remain quiet. There are a lot of CAD draftsmen and 3D artists who do not have lasers and CNC machines to create parts from their drawings. On the flip side, there are people like myself who have decades of model building and practical fabrication experience but are limited in 3D artistic skills. By collaborating together, we can all produce new and innovative products that go beyond anything you see on the market. The model kit market by and large produces on a "quantity for profit" type of method. Our idea is "low quantity, no profit, HIGHER quality" method. Make sense?

Our PRIMARY interest is in model building!!!! I am a RETIRED computer professional. I am now a full time model builder and am trying to give back to the community by sharing my skillset.

.... ok, off my soapbox!! LOL

Sail on..
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Mike,
I admire your skills as well as your intention to share it with us and at the end your willingness to help all of us on this forum... plus something which I can't value high enough, your capability for putting it into words... I can do a few things and (sometimes) I can also show it for others but explaining it like you do is well beyond my capabilities - and not only because English is my third language.
So enough talk and back to the substance...
János
 
I HAVE A QUESTION FOR MIKE AND OTHERS, AND PARDON MY IGNORANCE AND YES MIKE JANOS IS CORRECT YOU HAVE A WAY OF EXPLAINING THINGS THAT EVEN I WITH MY PROBLEM CAN UNDERSTAND MAYBE NOT TECHANICALLY BUT IN THE ESSENCE, MY QUESTION IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT KRIS DOES IN POLAND WHAT YOU AND DAVE ARE DOING HERE. GOD BLESS ALL STAY SAFE YOU AND YOURS DON
 
donfarr said:
IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT KRIS DOES IN POLAND
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From looking at his work, I would make the following observations.

1. Kris is not just one person. He said in his introduction that he and his friends create his decorations. So think of him as a team.
2. Kris' team has both the 3D artist talent of say Dave Stevens or Janos, but also does his own CNC fabrication like me.
3. Kris also does 3D printing (additive fabrication). I only do CNC and laser (subtractive fabrication).
4. Kris definitely has more experience and is further along the learning curve than I am.
5. Kris is in Poland, Dave and I are in the USA. Sometimes shipping and postage makes a difference.

Kris does beautiful work and I have reached out to him for collaboration. Maybe he would like to comment further on his capabilities.
 
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