The Black Pearl

Ophotn said:
you cant change 10% of another firms design and then call the design your own.
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Excellent information and thanks. I stand corrected. That is what happens when I blurt something out without first fact checking myself. After reading the material it appears if a model design is substantially the same as another it could be considered a copyright infringement, unless the copy has permission from the original owner. So, with regards to the All Scenario version of the ZHL Black Pearl and the Hachette Black Pearl, let's ask a couple questions:

- Are the two designs "substantially similar"? The copyright office says this is a subjective question only decided by a trial when an infringement is claimed.
- If we assume the ZHL and Hachette designs are indeed substantially similar, do we know that ZHL did not obtain permission from Hachette to use it?
- If the designs are substantially similar and no permission has been granted, has Hachette filed an infringement complaint?

I previously researched if there was any litigation or filed complaints against ZHL and have not been able to turn up any information. It may well be that we cannot get answers to these questions. What we do know is ZHL continues to sell all over the world.

In any case, ZHL continues to be the only player in the market with a quality wooden scale model kit of the Black Pearl. Unless folks want to build one from scratch they really have no other choice. I know the Black Pearl is a popular subject because of the movies. It is a shame that some people want to prevent us from building the nicest kit we can find on the market.
 
mrshanks said:
- Are the two designs "substantially similar"? The copyright office says this is a subjective question only decided by a trial when an infringement is claimed.
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It is my personal conclusion that this is the case. The similarities are substantial in just the base keel and frame parts by themselves. Obviously the trial here will be by a middling group of modelling peers and the consequences, whatever might be decided, are likely negligible for all parties involved.

mrshanks said:
- If we assume the ZHL and Hachette designs are indeed substantially similar, do we know that ZHL did not obtain permission from Hachette to use it?
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I dont think we can know that, unless we ask them. Maybe we should. We (at least I and SOS admin) do know that Chris Watton has complained, and if anyone is to know what arrangements might have been made between Hachette/Amati and ZHL it would be him - as Ive said though, I think he has decided it is a futile endeavor. Im guessing his connections to those companies are still alive and healthy and he has likely communicated with them on this. Ive never read where he has indicated such an agreement as you describe has taken place. To that end, Ive never seen an official complaint by Caldercraft or Sergal either, who are also well-documented cases of ZHL IP infringement.

mrshanks said:
- If the designs are substantially similar and no permission has been granted, has Hachette filed an infringement complaint?
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I dont think they have, or can. ZHL is in China, and the long arm of the UK copyright office probably isnt that long. Fighting these battles overseas has been a problem for companies all over the world. The fact is, the battle costs more in the end than small companies can bare. Which is why is important for us to have these discussions, I think we (the consumers) are the ones who can make the difference.

mrshanks said:
In any case, ZHL continues to be the only player in the market with a quality wooden scale model kit of the Black Pearl. Unless folks want to build one from scratch they really have no other choice. I know the Black Pearl is a popular subject because of the movies. It is a shame that some people want to prevent us from building the nicest kit we can find on the market.
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This is where the technicalities of law cant be applied. This is where one's own morality comes into play. While it might be the only or nicest kit on the market, if it is immorally produced or sets a bad precedent for the market, should we continue to support it? I, personally, won't tell you what to buy but I will uphold the idea that buying stolen property is wrong. I admit that this language is strong, and I will own it. It's not an accusation, nor a judgment. I feel the evidence supports my conclusion and I feel obligated to reach out to my peers in the modeling community. And if we are going to talk about ZHL, I feel its important to always point out that their business practices have been proven to be amoral. Part of the reason this gets so muddled, I think, is because people assume this is a largely victimless crime. I actually think the precedent is more dangerous than the acts that have been committed thus far. If we are so eager to buy these goods, what does that mean for the new guys? What does that mean for Joe Schmuckatelly who is thinking of breaking into the business? Dont we want to support them as SOS has supported ZHL? And to be clear, I just mean supporting through exposure, SOS to my knowledge has no agreements or arrangements with ZHL.

One last thing, Ive been tempted many times to throw in all the other instances of IP "borrowing" by ZHL but have mostly avoided this to respect Dave's wish that we keep this about Black Pearl, but will just say that if you are curious feel free to PM me. We can have those discussions separately.

All the best.
 
Ophotn said:
I feel the evidence supports my conclusion
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Well stated Ophotn and I do appreciate your opinion. And indeed there have been many opinions cast about the last few years. This blog is about the history of the Black Pearl and all of its various models. You never answered my question about Model Ship Master or Old Modern Handicraft but have plenty to say about ZHL. That is ok and I appreciate it.

This blog is about the truth and facts. Your opinion stays. I will stick to the facts. Readers can decide what they want.

The very first scale wooden model ship kit of the Black Pearl in the world was released by ZHL in 2008. It looks nothing like the Hachette. Does ZHL get any credit for this effort?

You took us to Copyrights, then deflected to Trademarks, now you talk about morality? I'm not debating, I am simply telling a history. Sorry.
 
I read all the posts and this is my take on it


(A)

Disney is out of the argument seems they hold no copyrights on a wooden model kit of the Black Pearl. To claim any IP theft, copyright infringements of Disney is at best a weak argument so out it goes. If Disney wanted to do something they have deep pockets and long arms and they did nothing and continue to do nothing about it. You do not need a license to create a Black Peal kit.

(B)

Chris Watton is out of the argument and has no part in the Black Pearl kit. He was hired to do a job and got paid for it, end of his story. Out he goes.

(c)

The Hachett publication has a UK copyright and no copyright anywhere else on earth. It is fair game in an international market. If there was or is an issue it falls in their lap and they did nothing. Out they go

(D)

Is ZHL a copy of Hatchett? We do not know. What we do know is ZHL designed the first and only original 2 black Pearl kits. So if Hachett comes along years later with a similar design of the ZHL Black Pearl who’s to say if the two original kits on the market at the time did or did not influence the Hachett design. Who took what from who is a moot point.

(E)

The moral issue is a tough one. At Ships of Scale we recognize there is pirating going on. It is brought to your attention. What you choose to do with that information is completely up to you. What we will not do is place ourselves in a position to cast moral judgment on everyone else, dishing out harsh punishment, shun and ban people or be involved in a smear campaign against anyone this is not our style.

(D)

The above is subject to change at my discretion, depending on new information or what I have for breakfast or what mood I am in.
 
mrshanks said:
The very first scale wooden model ship kit of the Black Pearl in the world was released by ZHL in 2008. It looks nothing like the Hachette. Does ZHL get any credit for this effort?
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Sure they do. But why not also acknowledge what came later? This all seems smaller than it really is, because it appears that ZHL may have started designing original kits only to evolve or grow to include works of other people. That's all I'm saying. As far as Black Pearl is concerned, I'm not arguing anything other than the one point about the one version of the kit. I appreciate people love ZHL, I appreciate that what I'm saying is falling on deaf ears and I appreciate my opinions are just opinions. I'm not asking for anything more than fair consideration of what I can bring to the table. What I haven't seen is compelling evidence that what I claim isn't true...
 
mrshanks said:
I haven't seen any compelling evidence that what you claim is true....
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Well... I honestly dont know what else to say then. If there is really nothing compelling about side-by-side comparisons then we are at an impasse. Remember acknowledging that evidence is compelling or even raises questions isn't an admission of anything... but if you truly believe that ZHL and Hachette/Amati coincidentally designed the exact same parts for the exact same ship, well... so be it. Ive never seen that before in all the ship model kits Ive ever seen, but Ive also never seen a Unicorn, who am I to say they didn't exist.
 
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Time to bury the Hachette Lol

that's the best statement yet their product is long gone off the market. They do not even make ship model kits

I appreciate people love ZHL, I appreciate that what I'm saying is falling on deaf ears and I appreciate my opinions are just opinions. I'm not asking for anything more than fair consideration of what I can bring to the table. What I haven't seen is compelling evidence that what I claim isn't true...

for one thing it is not falling on deaf ears because over 4,000 readers find it all interesting. Nor is it falling on deaf ears here we or at least I see your point a company's business practices are a little sketchy to some or fall into the category of flat out copying. got it!
This seems to be very common in the world of the international market and manufacturing.
Do we take up pitchforks and clubs and torches and start to slash and burn down the community of model ship building? Should every last model ship builder across the world unite and destroy any business we think might be doing something we don't like?

be completely honest, I would say that 95 % of model ship builders don't really take any interest in the copyright topic.
There a small minority that squawk about it, but most of us just build what we want without being dictated to.

on a world wide basis no one cares we all just accept it and live with it. Well except for a tiny little group that is nothing more than a drop in the ocean.
They seem to be doing more damage to ship modeling than good. Black Pearl kits will continue to be sold world wide, the maker of these kits will continue that is a fact.
I think it is not possible to come up with a fresh new original design of a Black Pearl model kit
 
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consider this

2 out of 3 black Pearl kits are originals no mistake about that the third one may or may not be a an exact copy part for part as claimed. What to do about it? we could ban number 3 and allow 1 and 2.
builders still purchase number 3 they just don't say anything, many model builders do not even participate in forums so if we do or don't ban a kit makes no difference in the big picture.
All 3 kits will still be sold world wide on places like Ebay, retail model dealers or amazon or many other sites so banning a kit is worthless attempt to stop it. To ban people or try to force people to comply does nothing but make us look like an ass, or worse yet like a bully trying to get his way.

a topic such as this shines an unbias light on the case of the Black Pearl but the end result is still the same it is up to the builder and only the builder.

to use one company or one or two copied kit to set an example is unfair if the practice is wide spread and actually acceptable by others. Do we take the Black Pearl kits and toss them in a huge fire with a dire warning if you try to produce a black Pearl kit that we do not approve of, this will happen to you?

i suggest the best approach is a topic like this one discussed in the open allowing all points of view and let the builders and modeling community decide for themselves. Perhaps in time the pressure might be felt by everyone including the Companies and dealers and sellers what we the community of model builders agree on. To bully or try to force the issue by twisting and bending information is doing nothing or having a hidden grudge does nothing to resolve the issue.
 
I truly think that this is all coming down to the age old question...which came first the chicken or the egg. Do we jump on other manufacturers simply because they all produce a model of a particular ship, like the Rattlesnake, he Victory or the Constitution? Ultimately it comes down to do you want to buy their model or not. It really doesn't matter to most modelers if their kit comes from China or BFE. If it is a superior kit and recreates the ship you are interested in then so much the better. Enough squabbling ...lets get back to the build log of the ship this thread was started about in the first place.
 
lets now go back to were it all started with the first Black Pearl model

should the story continue here or a separate build log?

as a build log it will be listed in the SoS/MSB index and it could be found, to put it here it adds to the complete story.

it will take me a little time to download and translate the original build log then to reconstruct it.
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
lets now go back to were it all started with the first Black Pearl model
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Just to clarify what Dave is talking about. He is planning to post the original build log of the scratch build model of Black Pearl built by Mr Mellpapa from Japan. Mr Mellpapa created his own scale drawings from scratch back in 2007 and built his own model. He is a member of a Japanese modeling club that primarily focuses on papercraft models. Mellpapa's drawings of the Black Pearl are provided free, without copyright to the entire world and are considered to be the very first example ever of a wooden scale model of the Black Pearl. Even prior to ZHL. Not as a kit... but as a scratch built model.
 
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