Thanks, Jim. What do you use for cementing smaller bits (wood to wood or metal to wood) later in the construction?
Vasa - 1:65 DeAgostini [COMPLETED BUILD]
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Thanks, Jim. What do you use for cementing smaller bits (wood to wood or metal to wood) later in the construction?
Today was all about placement of structural support elements.
Previously I mentioned that frame 15 had a twist/bend to it. That was corrected slightly with the reinforcement pieces but there is still a bend toward the tip of the frame. There are more structural pieces pending so perhaps that will continue to improve.
I also uncovered something troubling. Frame 9 doesn’t seem to align with the other frames. It stands proud of the structural pieces and does not seem to flow with the frames next to it.
Frame 18 does something similar, but I think I can account for that ‘shape’ in the flow of the ship (does the Vasa have a little ‘hip’ to her hull toward the stern?). Anyway, frame 9 is more troubling because unless something is done there will be a ‘bubble’ to the hull midships. That seems off.
Suggestions? I assume I should eventually sand down frame 9 otherwise the hull won’t run true? Or is it better to pack out the other frames? Or should I assume DeAg has it right?
Thanks for any advice you can offer.
Previously I mentioned that frame 15 had a twist/bend to it. That was corrected slightly with the reinforcement pieces but there is still a bend toward the tip of the frame. There are more structural pieces pending so perhaps that will continue to improve.
I also uncovered something troubling. Frame 9 doesn’t seem to align with the other frames. It stands proud of the structural pieces and does not seem to flow with the frames next to it.
Frame 18 does something similar, but I think I can account for that ‘shape’ in the flow of the ship (does the Vasa have a little ‘hip’ to her hull toward the stern?). Anyway, frame 9 is more troubling because unless something is done there will be a ‘bubble’ to the hull midships. That seems off.
Suggestions? I assume I should eventually sand down frame 9 otherwise the hull won’t run true? Or is it better to pack out the other frames? Or should I assume DeAg has it right?
Thanks for any advice you can offer.
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Hello Dockattner, It all depends on what bits ( wood details) you have to glue. For most wood parts, I use the PVA Lineco brand. Artists use this brand\bland as the base for painting because it has a neutral PH.
For wood and metal parts combination, I use CA, Mercury brand. This CA doesn't clog when dry. I also use 5 min epoxy
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Looking good so far.
I like the bigger scale of this kit, as you can add lots of scratch details.
I like the bigger scale of this kit, as you can add lots of scratch details.
I believe you will need to sand it down, but...I suggest you dry fit all the frames first and make sure you didn't put it in the wrong spot. Lately, before you will plank the hull, you will have to 'fair' shape the hull. You will find out where the frame\s need to be shaped or shimmed.
Last day off before returning to work. More structural pieces today...
If she sinks it won't be for lack of clamping...
I completed the structural pieces for the sterncastle (is that what it’s called in a ship this old?). Somewhere I got off kilter. Some of the pieces had to be pre-curved and it seems I created a bit of asymmetry (see the pictures that follow). I’ll need to pay attention to that when it comes to placing the first layer of hull planking. It’s not too bad so I hope it won’t be an issue. And for the record, I did try to take apart what I thought was wrong but it seemed I was doing more damage than the correction warranted. That glue is enthusiastic!
Good side...
Not so good side...
In any case, I seem to have kept the back end upright....
Today I also learned about bending plywood. Bending plywood is hard. In one direction the ‘grain’ seems to resist taking a permanent set (I soaked the pieces in hot water and even tried to ‘set’ the bend with a hairdryer – no joy). When bending the other direction (perpendicular to the ‘grain’) the piece snaps like a brittle twig. What am I missing? I ended up soaking the ply a bit longer – dried the surface to be glued with a hairdryer – and then just gently shaped the piece in place and clamped it there to fully dry overnight. Is that the right way to go? Are the planking strips for the hull going to take a set better than the ply? I don’t think I should place damp planking strips – won’t they shrink?
Bonus confession: I need better lighting and stronger glasses. The reading glasses I use for normal life are insufficient for this close-in work. I’m blaming my poor eyesight on the construction flaw at the stern of the ship but that might be more about protecting my feelings than reality can support.
If she sinks it won't be for lack of clamping...
I completed the structural pieces for the sterncastle (is that what it’s called in a ship this old?). Somewhere I got off kilter. Some of the pieces had to be pre-curved and it seems I created a bit of asymmetry (see the pictures that follow). I’ll need to pay attention to that when it comes to placing the first layer of hull planking. It’s not too bad so I hope it won’t be an issue. And for the record, I did try to take apart what I thought was wrong but it seemed I was doing more damage than the correction warranted. That glue is enthusiastic!
Good side...
Not so good side...
In any case, I seem to have kept the back end upright....
Today I also learned about bending plywood. Bending plywood is hard. In one direction the ‘grain’ seems to resist taking a permanent set (I soaked the pieces in hot water and even tried to ‘set’ the bend with a hairdryer – no joy). When bending the other direction (perpendicular to the ‘grain’) the piece snaps like a brittle twig. What am I missing? I ended up soaking the ply a bit longer – dried the surface to be glued with a hairdryer – and then just gently shaped the piece in place and clamped it there to fully dry overnight. Is that the right way to go? Are the planking strips for the hull going to take a set better than the ply? I don’t think I should place damp planking strips – won’t they shrink?
Bonus confession: I need better lighting and stronger glasses. The reading glasses I use for normal life are insufficient for this close-in work. I’m blaming my poor eyesight on the construction flaw at the stern of the ship but that might be more about protecting my feelings than reality can support.
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FIRSTLY, use a strong keel vise and make sure that keel is STRAIGHT and stays held until planking is done. Adjustments of parts are inevitable. Before you modify a part, you should check and recheck why parts do not align. In this case, check to see if frame 9 is slotted into the keel all the way, and see if the outside edge where the planks will lay is positioned relative to framed forward and aft. The curves of the hull and how they align with nearby frames is more important than whether or not the deck lays evenly across the inside of the frames. The slot tolerances between frames and keel are OFTEN not perfect, so adjust frames that appear to not flow with the hull shape by filing the bottom of the slot or adding a shim. Get frame 9 in proper vertical position. Glue the frames only after YOU are satisfied with the vertical alignment, and have wood blocks inserted between the frames, or some other method, to make DARN SURE the frames are perfectly perpendicular to the keel.
If the frames are position at the correct vertical positions, then look at the deck alignment. It is possible that the surfaces of the frames that the deck lay on may need a small adjustment to prevent waves or dips in the deck. You can shim up depressions on the deck support, OR remove material from the frames at the high spots to get the deck to lay solidly. Check to see if the deck is warped or bent first. If possible, check the deck's vertical position against the plans. You don't want some cannons to be higher or lower on their ports than they should be. To line up the deck seams, slap a piece of scrap wood on the bottom of the seam with some glue, clamp it until dry, and reinforce that joint. That often makes the strength of your hull better and gets rid of minor warps in the wood. The reinforcement will never be seen, and will be an improvement.
All these considerations should be taken into account before you modify a part. HOWEVER, know that modifications should NOT be something you are afraid of. These kits do suffer from errors. Luckily it it not often. The poop deck on my ship, La Couronne by Corel, has a known flaw where they cut the notch for the frame 5mm too far forward, so it CAN happen. If you want to superdetail your model, you will be changing some dimensions and adding scratch built subassemblies throughout your build, based on other's models and book sources.
Thanks Jim. I have it in the right spot. At first I suspected what you were concerned about because there is no hull frame labeled #10. But if I swap 8 and 9 or 9 and 11 it creates all kinds of other problems. Having said that - dry fitting is a habit I need to embrace...I believe you will need to sand it down, but...I suggest you dry fit all the frames first and make sure you didn't put it in the wrong spot. Lately, before you will plank the hull, you will have to 'fair' shape the hull. You will find out where the frame\s need to be shaped or shimmed.
Plywood resists bending unless soaked through, though not enough to destroy the glue bonds. After wetting it thoroughly, bend it slightly beyond the correct position, and allow it to dry overnight under clamps or weights or whatever you use to hold it in position. If the overbend amount was the right amount, it should spring back a bit to rest perfectly in the correct shape. If it is not wet enough and you use too much force, it may break. PANIC NOT. Just glue it back together after it's dry and make sure it's straight. You'll never see the break in the plywood once it's planked over, and it will not become a significant weak spot.
As for planking, if the edges of the planks are lightly sanded with a sanding block to an angle to mate seamlessly against adjacent planks, shrinkage is negligible. Failure to shape the edges of the planks so they mate flush against each other all along their length will make larger gaps than shrinkage. Not that gaps matter much on the first layer of planks, but on the final layer, you want to be as precise as you can. The finished result of careful efforts will speak for itself.
Looks good,interesting build,have seen it in real a couple of times
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this is what I have very good purchase
I can fully agree with what you say about logs I follow them and really enjoy them but sometimes the people with aspirations but not experience should be seen, not only for their benefit but to encourage all the up and coming builders. That is why I have started a YouTube channel building models with my little experience.
Terrific Jim. Thanks much!
Hello Kurt, Thank you for your thoughtful, well-considered comments. I was careful but not nearly as careful as you have described. I have gone back and it seems I have all the frames in the right place and all are fully seated (assuming the notching was correct). However, I did discover a place where I have a frame slightly tipped relative to the longitudinal axis. It's quite subtle and I should be able to adjust. On the Model Space website I found a build log where someone had the same issues with frame 9. That builder chose to reshape the frame while preparing for the first layer of hull planking.
Love your suggestions for adding supports to the deck underlayment, as well as the heads-up on needing to shape the backside of the hull planking. As for the second item - do you do that to every primary hull plank automatically (preemptively) or 'as needed'?
By the way, I checked out the photos of your La Couronne build. You've got skills my friend. Awesome work!
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It's great that you can go back and adjust the frames at this early stage. Getting everything laser straight is important. I saw another build where the entire ship ended up slightly twisted along the keel because the starting structure was not lined up, and it messed up the alignment of everything later on. Regarding the planking, I am on my very first ship, so being extra careful as beginners usually are, my first layer of planking was fitted on all edges, leaving no gaps, AND I even made accurate Dutch style drop planks and stealers as if the first layer of planking was the finish layer.
Extra work, but less sanding was needed to get a perfectly curved and smooth hull, on those areas not covered with wood filler. A plank on frame model hull tends to have flat areas between the frames, and areas that have too sharp a curve where planks have to bend hard over a frame, such as near the the bow or stern. This tends to make the hull look like a set of polygons instead of one, smooth, curved shape. You can fill in the space between frames with wood to make the hull shape smoother, or use wood filler in patched areas over the first layer of planks to fill in flat spots, and raised areas on either side of a sharp bend to even out the overall curves on the hull. The filler I used covered up some of the nice plank work I did on the first layer, but after the second, final layer of thin mahogany was applied, the hull frame locations were no longer apparent in the shape of the hull, which is your goal.
I got pretty good at preshaping the first layer planking by soaking planks that needed sharp curvature and using the electric hot iron and a wood form to steam them into shape. After lightly sanding the long edges so they butt against the previous plank perfectly, then they were glued and pinned to the frames. All the preparation work allowed me to use CA glue to attach the planks, because they were pre-fit and didn't require a lot of force to bend them to the hull, so assembly went fast and seams were pretty tight. Others use PVA glue, but you have to wait longer for it to dry. Mistakes on the first layer are not critical as far and leaving gaps in concerned, so long as the overall hull shape is emphasized. You will be filling gaps and covering them up on the finish layer anyway, so shape is more important. The first layer gives you the practice you need to get the skill for applying the second layer precisely without issues, sort of like a training course.
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Hello Doc!
I too am a novice ship builder but absolutely love the hobby. So welcome aboard. I'm currently working on the HMS Fly but have been thinking about the Vasa as my third build. My wife's parents were Swedish and Danish born and she has been in the Vasa museum her self. I see you have a real good looking start so good luck with the rest and I will drop in on your build from time to time.
Best Regards,
Dan
I too am a novice ship builder but absolutely love the hobby. So welcome aboard. I'm currently working on the HMS Fly but have been thinking about the Vasa as my third build. My wife's parents were Swedish and Danish born and she has been in the Vasa museum her self. I see you have a real good looking start so good luck with the rest and I will drop in on your build from time to time.
Best Regards,
Dan
what wood is used in this kit?
Well, I think I'd call it cheap wood. If I had to guess I would say that the strips for the first layer of the hull are basswood (or possibly bamboo). The thinner strips for the second layer of the hull (and decking) are almost certainly basswood. See the two images below: one is taken with 'warm' light and the second is taken with 'cool' light. Maybe someone can identify the species from these pictures. This topic is going to come up again in a day or two...
Depending on your taste in color, you may want to swap out the final plank layer with a hardwood of your choice. The first layer could be be basswood, which bends pretty evenly and does not have soft spots which cause sharp bends like bamboo. DeAgostini supplied bamboo with my HMS Sovereign of the Seas kit, and I'm discarding it entirely. The Corel kits supply vary nice European lime wood (linden) that is easy to bend and evenly flexible. I recommend lime (linden) for the first layer. An alternative in America is basswood, but it is a little lighter in weight than European lime. However, it is common here in the USA.
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Today was my first foray into something that wasn’t structural…
There are two deck portions that sit below the main portions of the deck (I assume they will have grating or covers over them in places but will apparently be visible to some extent). Anyway, I got to do some decking.
To say I agonized over how to do this well is an understatement. According to Fred Hocker at the Vasa Museum the decking on the original is apparently random: random lengths set in a random pattern. And while that might be historically accurate when I did a mock-up I confess I didn’t like the look all that much. What to do? Am I beholden to historical accuracy or is there room for artistic license? The DeAg instructions call for a two-butt shift which is as far from random as I could imagine.
What I ended up doing was a five-butt shift. Why? It looked less like a pattern than other layouts but didn’t suffer from ‘randomness’ as a liability. I also kept the plank lengths the same – 60 mm which at a 1:65 scale would mean the full size boards would have been about 13 feet long. I thought this sounded reasonable but I’m an orthodontist not a shipbuilder so I might be completely off the reservation. Anyway, I felt this plank length produced a pleasing appearance. Not too busy and not too spartan.
I also agonized over the appearance of the decking. I tested out more stains, oils, techniques than I care to confess to. For example...
I think I spent less time choosing names for my children. I ended up selecting a simple summer oak stain and a matte poly finish. I’m pleased with the result, but I can’t help but wonder what you all think? The deck portions I have built thus far will be less visible than what is to come so if I need to change things I can and will. I could even overlay what I have completed to make it all look the same.
Thanks for checking in - and I am happy to hear your thoughts or suggestions!
There are two deck portions that sit below the main portions of the deck (I assume they will have grating or covers over them in places but will apparently be visible to some extent). Anyway, I got to do some decking.
To say I agonized over how to do this well is an understatement. According to Fred Hocker at the Vasa Museum the decking on the original is apparently random: random lengths set in a random pattern. And while that might be historically accurate when I did a mock-up I confess I didn’t like the look all that much. What to do? Am I beholden to historical accuracy or is there room for artistic license? The DeAg instructions call for a two-butt shift which is as far from random as I could imagine.
What I ended up doing was a five-butt shift. Why? It looked less like a pattern than other layouts but didn’t suffer from ‘randomness’ as a liability. I also kept the plank lengths the same – 60 mm which at a 1:65 scale would mean the full size boards would have been about 13 feet long. I thought this sounded reasonable but I’m an orthodontist not a shipbuilder so I might be completely off the reservation. Anyway, I felt this plank length produced a pleasing appearance. Not too busy and not too spartan.
I also agonized over the appearance of the decking. I tested out more stains, oils, techniques than I care to confess to. For example...
I think I spent less time choosing names for my children. I ended up selecting a simple summer oak stain and a matte poly finish. I’m pleased with the result, but I can’t help but wonder what you all think? The deck portions I have built thus far will be less visible than what is to come so if I need to change things I can and will. I could even overlay what I have completed to make it all look the same.
Thanks for checking in - and I am happy to hear your thoughts or suggestions!