Vasa - 1:65 DeAgostini [COMPLETED BUILD]

[kirill4]

Good day Stephan - You made nice input about traveling backstays,
but assume they were used mostly in 18-19 century, seems to me they will look strange on the galleon , in the Vasa days ...? In case of Constitution rigging - they will looks more at place , but Harland J. says they more typical for small vessel?
In my personal opinion, all we need to do when rigging Vasa model, just follow existing Vasa museum drawing without making mistakes... thats all... even backstays fittings on the Vasa is quite questionable ... I would say 50/50 to fitt them or not to fitt... or to fitt them as Fred Hocker suggested... but even than it will be guess work

 

[RogerD]

On the ship I really WAS on the 12-4 watch.

I thought you might have been. I found the difficult hours and sleep deprivation for that watch in particular was not easy, especially for months and months on end.

 

[Vfordyce]

Try alternating between night flights and day flights during the same week. I recall a couple of 17 hour nonstop flights between North Dakota and Guam with only the stars and sun to guide my way. I was imagining how it was to be Magellan.

 

[dockattner]

As I understood, You are not going to follow advises given by Fred Hocker regarding possible arrangements of Vasa backstays? ....consider nowadays He is lead specialist in Vasa rigging ...
all he told about Vasa backstays( in that his mail to your) very informative and with solid archeological background, why not follow him?
His suggestions are not contradict with information from Anderson book regarding backstays possible arrangements.

Hi @kirill4,

Perhaps my English isn't so great either . I think I wrote that I was going to precisely follow Mr. Hocker's email. One or two backstays on the fore topmast and main topmast and a single backstay on the mizzen topmast. These would be configured as running backstays using tackle rather than run to deadeyes. Anderson proposes a Dutch style tackle arrangement that I could use (or maybe I don't understand what Mr. Hocker means when he says tackle???).

Of course, complicating this discussion is the simple fact that the museum plans don't show backstays at all (now that I understand that what is depicted are actually halliards). Mr. Hocker (on the Vasa Warship forum) has acknowledged that the rigging shown on the museum plans may not be exactly right in a few spots.

Or maybe I'm still confused. This whole halliard thing has me questioning everything I thought I knew...

 

[kirill4]

Oh!
Paul, now I see...
I missed that part You told You are going to precisely follow Mr. Hocker's email... I thought You consider his suggestions just as one of possibilities... now is all clear.
I think it will be easy to add such backstays to existing museum rigging plan...
At least , in whole , presently it is cool rigging plan for the Vasa model without known alternative... I don't know when we will see Vasa II book with all that rigging corrections which FH told us about already a few years... )) but I hope there will be no major corrections.
Continue tie halliard story, to clarify questions, how they are fitted- fragment from PKirsch book... more or less Vasa has the same arrangements...

 

[Daniel20]

By definition a halyard is used to hoist a ladder, sail, flag, or yard. To my simple mind standing rigging weather or not attached with tackle or hard tied does not fit in with a halyard because in standing rigging nothing is being hoisted.

 

[kirill4]

to avoid confusion, we are talking about:
# tie halliards in respect of topsails and top gallant sails to hoist their yards up and down...
# backstays\as part of standing rigging arrangements - but this is different story, nothing common with upper sails tie halliards...

 

[Daniel20]

Oh!
Paul, now I see...
I missed that part You told You are going to precisely follow Mr. Hocker's email... I thought You consider his suggestions just as one of possibilities... now is all clear.
I think it will be easy to add such backstays to existing museum rigging plan...
At least , in whole , presently it is cool rigging plan for the Vasa model without known alternative... I don't know when we will see Vasa II book with all that rigging corrections which FH told us about already a few years... )) but I hope there will be no major corrections.
Continue tie halliard story, to clarify questions, how they are fitted- fragment from PKirsch book... more or less Vasa has the same arrangements...

View attachment 306976

So Kirill, am I seeing the Topsail, and Topgallant yards being held in place by the compound tackles with crows feet attached to the mainstay?
Also is the Topgallant mast itself at its top end held by a "backstay" with crows feet to forestay #5??

 

[Steef66]

but assume they were used mostly in 18-19 century

?? backstays where used from ~1620 till ~1860

seems to me they will look strange on the galleon

Why, Peter Kirsch mentioned them that they where attached to a galleon.

Viele Details können in einer nur der Übersicht dienenden Takelzeichnung nicht enthalten sein. Einige der fehlenden Teile möchte ich hier auflisten:
translate: Many details cannot be included in a rigging drawing that only serves as an overview. I would like to list some of the missing parts here:
And then he listed: Backstage der Marsstengen: Sie waren nicht immer vorhanden
translate: Backstay at the topyards: They were not always present
So we assume that he means they where attached. But not in the drawing

 

[Steef66]

So Kirill, am I seeing the Topsail, and Topgallant yards being held in place by the compound tackles with crows feet attached to the mainstay?
Also is the Topgallant mast itself at its top end held by a "backstay" with crows feet to forestay #5??

#5 is the main topgallant stay and 4 is the "Flagstockstag" in German how they call it in English? Flagstockstay maybe
And yes, this is the construction how it was held on the fore mast

 

[Daniel20]

Hey Paul,
I sure am thankful for your post on this subject of backstays. Once again, I am slow on the uptake but with yours, @kirill4, and @Steef66 commentary I finally realize two things. Using my current resources, all the lines converging at each top make it impossible (without rigging knowledge) to know how they exit from the opposite side and where they go. I've also learned how the various yards are held in place on this period of galleon. I was WAY off on this aspect. I'm lovin this, thanks.

 

[RogerD]

Try alternating between night flights and day flights during the same week. I recall a couple of 17 hour nonstop flights between North Dakota and Guam with only the stars and sun to guide my way. I was imagining how it was to be Magellan.

Yep, long disrupted hours for you too. After the midnight to 0400 I used to head up to the bridge after a few short hours sleep, hope the 4-8 got morning stars, take morning sights, back up later for meridian passage for a latitude. Then often, after finishing the 12-4 pm watch, back up to take a seven star fix (hopefully) at evening twilight. Grab some shuteye then the process started all over again, and again.…The colloquial name used was Vasco . Now it’s all electronic nav. equipment and the sextant (still carried) sits in it’s box gathering dust under the expresso machine .

(Sorry Paul, we digressed from your excellent log).

 

[Steef66]

@Daniel20 almost impossible to find out how everything is put togheter. Writers of these books just tell only parts of the puzzle. You need to find all these pieces of the puzzle to understand the meaning of a part of the rigging. When you start seaching it's necessary to read and look too many drawings and books. This part of this rigging took me almost 1 month to understand and search. Lucky I could help someone with all this info.

 

[kirill4]

Good day,
Stephan,
what I really told -
....''You made nice input about traveling backstays,
but assume they were used mostly in 18-19 century, seems to me they will look strange on the galleon...."
when I mentioned 18-19 centuries , I ment those special form of backstays - "traveling backstay" , which You mentioned and shown us fragment from J. Harland's book where he's talking about traveling or braest backstay (page 23 Harland J. Seamanship in the age of sail, 1985)...
I didn't tell that backstays at all ,couldn't be used in galleon rigging, we would better try to avoid making mix of specific kind of backstays belong to another, much later period and type of backstays which could be used on galleons - end of 16-begining of 17 century.
Peter Kirch shown simple form of backstays on his galleon rigging plan in shape of couple of long pendats with single blocks at each end and whips...Anderson told about this form of backstays , and as I understood You reproduced them on your model as well...?
Oops , I/m very sorry - Peter Kirsch didn/t show them!
but You and me, on our models - we did ! ))
at least I did it ,exactly in this form - top mast backstays only - just long pendant with single block and whip- one for each side.

 

[Steef66]

I ment those special form of backstays - "traveling backstay" , which You mentioned and shown us fragment from J. Harland's book where he's talking about traveling or braest backstay (page 23 Harland J. Seamanship in the age of sail, 1985)...

No problem Kirill, this is an interesting subject. A problem I see often in translations of words.
We call that backstay which was on a galleon Slingerpardoens. How they call in English I don't know for sure. Traveling or braest backstay come the most close because it have the same purpose. By going out of the way when brace the sails. It's all a translation thing. Because the backstays are a Dutch invention, copied by the rest. They get other names and the working changed in the years. The working as Harland discribes is different to the earlier era, where they simple move from the channel to the middle of the ship. But it is in my opinion the same thing. Do you have another name for the Slingerpardoen? When I search in Seaman language for slingerpardoen they referee to pardoen and the the translation of pardoen is backstay. So looking to the name traveller or breast stay they referee to backstay.
But looking to why they are named like that and what is there function you can tell, they are the same as pardoen and slingerpardoen. So yes I think it's the same thing. Only Harland shows the younger version of that part of the ship. Anderson the older.

Edit: Maybe we should only use 2 names and share the rest under it. Only using the name standing backstay and shifting backstay. That makes more sense.

 

[Steef66]

but You and me, on our models - we did ! ))
at least I did it ,exactly in this form - top mast backstays only - just long pendant with single block and whip- one for each side.

they call that the Dutch version

 

[Steef66]

We both did that part of belaying wrong. Let me explain. Paul could use this info when making these parts on his ship.
The starting point of the whips is on the back of the last deadeye on the channel and the second part will be belayed on the channel or on the inside behind the channel on a eye bolt. Where it could easily take of and get too the middle below the mast on a eye bolt. In that case the backstay is out of the way when brace the sails.
Here is a simple version of this. (Fig 286 left one) Starts behind the deadeye and goes to the single block back to the belaying point with or without a tackle. In our case due to the era no tackle just a eye bolt on the inside

 

[dockattner]

View attachment 307030

We both did that part of belaying wrong. Let me explain. Paul could use this info when making these parts on his ship.
The starting point of the whips is on the back of the last deadeye on the channel and the second part will be belayed on the channel or on the inside behind the channel on a eye bolt. Where it could easily take of and get too the middle below the mast on a eye bolt. In that case the backstay is out of the way when brace the sails.
View attachment 307031 Here is a simple version of this. (Fig 286 left one) Starts behind the deadeye and goes to the single block back to the belaying point with or without a tackle. In our case due to the era no tackle just a eye bolt on the inside

Gentlemen, are you in disagreement with this configuration:



This would be attached to an eyebolt on the channel and could be easily unhooked and moved inboards. If I understood Mr. Hocker's comments this was what he was describing (perhaps without the fiddle blocks in a more simple fashion).

 

[kirill4]

I don't think we did it wrong...why?
first , there is not posible to turn main yard on such sharp angle that it will cross back stay on leeward side...
second, even if it will be the case, we allways could make good slack of this backstay and keep tight backstay on the windward side... when wind went from one of the side,but not straight from aft, only one of the backstays on the windward side works as a rule...
standing part of the backstay whip on my model secured to the ring bolt outside hull ,on the fenders, not on the shain plate - this is designed too short on the kit model and I had to find better location for standing part of the whip... running part of the whip secured on the small inner knight after passed trough sheeve in it, it could be fast pay out when necessary thus gives slack to the backstay when need it.
this knight placed opposite of the ring bolt where secured standing part of the whip.... this is my interpretation of simple form of backstay which consists of pendant and whip... both sides backstays have same arrangement on my model...

 

[Steef66]

Gentlemen, are you in disagreement with this configuration:

View attachment 307032

This would be attached to an eyebolt on the channel and could be easily unhooked and moved inboards. If I understood Mr. Hocker's comments this was what he was describing (perhaps without the fiddle blocks in a more simple fashion).

that's a possibility to do, but you can go for the most simple method Like we show on our ships. Just one single block on the backstay and the whip on 2 points.

Edit: See the page of Anderson in the post of Kirill below, there is a simple picture how it was done in about 1625