School for model ship building

about bodyplans here i am using the bodyplan of the a heavy armed frigate Princess Charlotte built on Lake Ontario in 1812. What makes this unique is the extreme V shape of the hull. War ship on the oceans needed to carry supplies because they were out to sea for months on end. On the lakes they sailed for a short time so there was no need to carry supplies. The sharper the hull the faster it could move. This ship was built for speed.
first image is the original bodyplan which has only the station lines

bodyplan tracing0.JPG

building a framed hull you need all the frame shapes like in this bodyplan

bodyplan6.jpg

when you draw in all the frame shapes the lines run together

bl1.JPG

drawing with CAD you can zoom way in and draw all your lines. but if you doing this with a pen on paper the lines will all run together. The trick in drawing a bodyplan by hand is to take the original print it out and take it to an office supply place that makes copies. Have the blow the bodyplan way up in size. I am saying BIG like 20 x 24 inch. Then when you finished you reduce the drawing.

bl2.JPG
 
Donnie said:
DISCLAIMER: My humble opinion

only a very few possess an artistic talent, gift, or ability of building ships from scratch. Most of the on coming communities that want to even get into this wonderful hobby, first have to learn the ships nautical terms and body plans which takes a long time unless a person is gifted in such areas. Instead of the encouragement of Hahn, I see a disconnect and discouragement from common folk that want to pursue the hobby. To me, his doctrine and philosophy is too strict and almost borders a line of arrogance against those that are unable to understand the complexities of scratch building. Which there again has a propensity of weeding out those that want to pursue the hobby. In other words, unless a person can’t build a ship from scratch they are not worthy in his eyes.
However, I also applaud anyone willing to take on the task to educate the rest of us on how to scratch building.
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I agree with Donnie's comments. First of all, we all know that young people today are not picking up hands-on hobbies of any kind, and if we would like to see ship modeling continue into the future it has to have the widest appeal possible. And that appeal certainly starts with kit building. From that point, a person may be totally happy with kits and continue with them as a hobbyist, or may develop a broader interest in maritime lore and get into research and scratch building. Organizations such as the NRG and this web site have to appeal to the full spectrum of model builders in order to stay viable, but there is obviously space for specialist groups. Other than those who build models as a profession, the rest of us do it for the joy that it brings Let's recognize that we all share that aspect of model making in common, and support each other at whatever level of skill that we aspire to.
 
that is exactly what this forum is doing Model Expo offers a beginner series starting with the dory build. We have several build logs on these beginner kits. Dry Dock Models offer more advanced kits so we cover every aspect of the hobby from beginner to advanced scratch building.

First of all, we all know that young people today are not picking up hands-on hobbies of any kind,

that is simply not true all 3 of my grandsons built robots from scratch and won in state competition back in high school. They run circles around me when it comes to 3D modeling and printing. They are really good with CAD drafting, design, printing and building prototypes. Grandson no. 3 is still in college majoring in bioengineering and prototype model building. grandson 1 is a civil engineer and was into model building since grade school. grandson 3 is into scale figures since he learned how to use a computer and now works with artists, laser cutting and advanced computer design.
it looks like the young generation is not into hands on building stuff you just do not recognize it

no one says you have to be involved in this topic and no one is saying if your not an advanced scratch builder from drafting plans to a finished model you not recognized as a skilled builder. For some of the young generation this is grade school level of design and building, for others it is all greek and they have no idea.
there is something for everyone here at Ships of Scale find your place and be happy
 
I made my model of the Earl of Egmont, 1/8" = 1', solid hull. A month after finishing I discovered Harold Hahn's "Colonial Schooners"

well done!
 
My first model was the Cutty Sark supplied by an Italian company back in the early 90's. Everything was in Italian, no instructions provided. Only information I had was the drawings (several full scale) and an Italian to English nautical translation handbook. So being an engineer I determined I could do that and started with how do you build a ship. That took 5 years at a few hours a week. Not vey good but I made it though. Next up was the Vasa a Billings model kit with instructions, that took 10 years as I stopped and moved. Not as satisfying but my skills improved. Last was a scratch built model of the Lake of Galilee boat (also called the Jesus boat as it was a fishing boat dated to the time of Christ). I had the line drawings which I made into frame lines and scaled to my desires. I also had several other drawings from the time indicating what the interior and provisions would have looked like. I had several pieces of eastern cedar logs that I milled into lumber for the boat. That took a fews years but was the must satisfying build. Now at 80 years of age I have but that part of my life away and looking forward to passing on what little I have learned.
 
Hull Lines & Planking Thickness: while I agree with Dave that while hull lines are USUALLY drawn to the inside of the planking such is not always the case. Here, I am talking about original drafts as one would order from Royal Museums Greenwich, not one specifically drawn for POF modeling like Harold Hahn’s.

Lines drawings drawn for building ships; wooden or steel are drawn to Moulded Dimensions (inside of planking or plating). This is necessary to provide the mould loft with information to lay out accurate frame shapes. Otherwise, the lofts men would have to deduct this thickness during the lofting process. This would also be true when half models were used instead of drawings.

On the other hand, when the Royal Navy captured foreign vessels they would sometimes record the hull lines. Chapelle writes that they had specially equipped drydocks for this purpose. This process would produce a Table of Offsets that would then be used to make a drawing. This drawing would be used to evaluate the captured vessel’s design not to build a new one. Since, this recording process involved measuring an existing vessel, these lines would be drawn to the OUTSIDE of the planking.

In other words, it depends on the situation.

My last project was a 1:32 scale RN longboat. My series of warships’ boats feature carved outside and inside hulls so it was necessary to adjust the lines on the Admiralty draught to ADD the planking thickness.

Roger
 
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AllanKP69 said:
I may be dead wrong, but I think the biggest obstacle to scratch building is space. If there is not enough room for the tools needed to cut, plane, turn, &c, kits seem to be the only way to go. But, many things can be made with a minimum of space that are superior to what comes in a kit. How about a semi kit or a "Bash Kit" for those with a few basic tools and limited space and a desire to put their own research and skills into play. If nothing else, it will reduce the cost of the basic kit and yield a better looking model in the end. Probably just a silly idea, but there it is.
Allan
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Exactly. I don't know how many members there are on this site but every one is different, has different motivations and is a different point in their lives. They have different reasons for being here, different interests and face real limitations of time and budget and space. A hobby by definition is something you do to relax in your spare time and most of us are hobbyists. My philosophy on this site is to take what's helpful, useful and interesting and ignore what doesn't apply to me. That gives me more time to work on my hobby.
 
I am very happy to learn of your “school for model ship building”.

I had decided to “scratch-build” a model of HMS Grenville (1763) (1:48). This was reportedly originally built as the Schooner Sally in Gloucester, Massachusetts in 1754. This was purchased by Adm. Graves on 7 August 1763 and was renamed HMS Grenville for use by James Cook for his survey/mapping of Newfoundland. In ~1765, Grenville was reportedly reconfigured as a brig. I plan to build the schooner version. I have NOT been able to find drawings of Sally/Grenville, so I decided to create drawings based on typical schooners of the period, preferably Gloucester-built and of approximately the same size.

I have been reading/studying Harold Hahn’s “The Colonial Schooner, 1763-1775”, Chapelle’s “Marble Head Schooner”, and the drawings of HMS Earl of Egmont and HMS Sir Edward Hawke from Chapelle’s “The Search for Speed Under Sail”, Plate 13 a as a starting point. I have begun creating hull drawings using MacDraft. I recently purchased the “maker” (hobbyist) version of SolidWorks, but haven’t yet started to use it. (In an earlier lifetime, I used the professional version of SolidWorks and am sure it would be useful for furnishings, etc.)

So, I am very much looking forward to your “school for model ship building”. I hope to learn a lot. I also hope to solicit the help of this austere group as I progress for help/hints for how the HMS Grenville would actually look.
 
Kurt Konrath said:
I look forward to learning more about how real ships are built and models of them are built the same way, but to scale.

I got a taste of scratch building by the group build here a few years ago, but got stuck when I had to move and put most of my tools in storage and couldn't access the saws and sanders needed to build frames.

So I am waiting to see what I can learn from those who are Masters or close to it now in this hobby. My marine and nautical knowledge is but a drop in the bucket, and kit building doesn't get you much more than frustrated when the kit doesn't work out or instructions leave you lost at critical steps in the process, like rigging when you need to know the why and how, not taught in kit assembly.
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While you're awaiting unpacking your shop (I feel your pain! :)), you might want to pick up a few books on wooden ship building in general and modeling in particular to read in your spare time and to save as valuable reference works. If you are interested in British Admiralty vessels of the Eighteenth Century (and American, for that matter - these being "close enough for government work"), you'll find any of the below volumes of great interest:

Building the Wooden Fighting Ship by James Moore and James W. Dodds

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Wooden Warship Construction - A History in Ship Models by Brian Lavery

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This volume, a quality paperback reprint of a contemporary work, addresses early 20th Century wooden shipbuilding practices:

Wooden Ship-Building by Charles Desmond

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If you are serious about building, particularly from scratch, anything from the broad spectrum of British Admiralty sailing warships, which for all practical purposes comes rather close to United States practices over the same time span, the "trifecta" is the below set of three volumes which, on their own, would suffice as a pretty good basic reference library on the subject. (Published separately, they were intended as a three-volume set and share the same format.) They can be a bit pricey, but these are large "coffee table" sized high quality hardback books that are chock-full of information and written by the recognized authorities on the subject today. They're widely available on the used market and if you shop around, some real bargain prices can be found. As they saying goes, "You can take these ones to the bank."

The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, 1625-1860 by James Lees
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The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War, 1600-1815 by Brian Lavery

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The Construction and Fitting of English Man of War, 1650-1850 by Peter Goodwin

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For those who are interested in the why of shipbuilding in the age of sail, I haven't come across a better book than Seamanship in the Age of Sail. This huge compendium lays out in readily understandable terms not only how the ships were rigged but how much sail was set in each condition of wind and sea, how the various maneuvers were carried out, and the intricacies of operations like reefing sails or 'catting' an anchor. All of these details, known from firsthand experience by those familiar with the operation of full-sized square-rigged vessels but of which a "lay" modeler is uninformed, must be known if a truly accurate model is to be built. The devil is in the details that give real "life" to a model, details which the kit instructions rarely provide. Moreover, an understanding of how the ships we model actually worked makes modeling them accurately far easier. Few modelers in this day and age have had the opportunity to climb ratlines and stand on a footrope to furl a sail in a blow (not recommended if you can avoid it! ;),) hang a coil of line on a belaying pin, tack or wear a square-rigged vessel, or even spend any time under sail in "blue water." This book makes up for that. It's fascinating reading with lots of good illustrations, too! I must say it isn't inexpensive, but there are many used copies available, and your heirs will probably realize a reasonable return when they sell off your copy on eBay. This one is a classic.

Seamanship in the Age of Sail: An Account of the Shiphandling of the Sailing Man-of-War 1600-1860, Based on Contemporary Sources by John Harland

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For those who want to learn more about the techniques of ship modeling, especially scratch building, I don't think there's a better book on the subject than The Art of Ship Modeling by Bernard Frolich. You could spend years building a library of books addressing the techniques of ship modeling to learn all the "tricks of the trade," but many are now out of date and of limited usefulness. (Gerald Wingrove's The Techniques of Ship Modeling is an example. A great book, but if you don't own a no longer made and now "collectable" Unimat lathe, you'll find a lot of his great advice sadly useless to you.) Forlich's book covers it all in the context of contemporary technology. As one review put it, "The Art of Shipmodeling describes the author's experience and methods in 300 pages abundantly illustrated with numerous drawings, sketches and more than 600 commentated photos. In this book, Frölich describes in detail all the crafts that a shipmodeler must master : he must be in turn a shipwright; a carpenter; a cabinetmaker; a marqueter; a blacksmith; a ropemaker and a sailmaker. He shows that any beginner, if he is industrious and persevering, can master this art." This book was originally written in French, if memory serves, but is available in several translations. Be sure you are ordering the English translation! Like all good things, this one is recommended with the caution that it ain't cheap by a long shot. It's relatively recently published and "in print," so there won't be a lot of copies on the used market, but shop around and you may get lucky. The only criticism I have of the book is that it is so large and heavy that it's best read at a desk. It's not suitable for laptop reading in bed! As for the cost, its content includes what you'd have to buy a half dozen other books to even approach equaling. This one's definitely worthy of leaving on your coffee table so when friends see your models and ask how you build them, you can show them the book and amaze them with the extent of your talents! :D

The Art of Ship modeling by Bernard Frolich​


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Finally, for those who model British sailing warships and find themselves wondering about things like "What's the diameter of a mainmast on a 74-gun ship of the line?" or "What size block was used on a signal halyard?" or even "What's a crossed cat harpin?" I strongly recommend Scantlings of the Royal Navy 1719-1805 Comparisons of 1719, 1745 Establishments, Ship Builders Repository and Steel’s Elements and Practice by Allan Yedlinsky. While I'd have to say that although this book, which includes a readable reprint of Steel's Elements and Practice, the 1794 seminal work on the subject, is required bedtime reading for any insomniac, it contains everything we have in the historical record for the construction details used by the British Admiralty during the Age of Sail laid out in very accessible spiral bound wide "spread sheet" format and is, in my opinion, an indispensable reference work for anybody building British (and American) sailing warships of that period. It's recently published by Seawatch Books, so I doubt that there will be many copies on the used market as yet, but for what it contains, and the prodigious work required to compile and organize it, definitely worth the price and then some.

Scantlings of the Royal Navy 1719-1805 Comparisons of 1719, 1745 Establishments, Ship Builders Repository and Steel’s Elements and Practice by Allan Yedlinsky​


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seawatchbooks.com

Scantlings of the Royal Navy 1719-1805 Comparisons of 1719, 1745 Estab

This specially formatted book (14”x8 ½”) is divided into 2 sections. The first shows all of the scantlings from the 1719, 1745 and 1750 amended figures in an easy to use spread sheet format. The second section compares Steel and Ship Builders Repository in the same format. Additionally, the...
seawatchbooks.com seawatchbooks.com

This post isn't intended to "hijack" Dale Stevens' very promising "class" on scratch ship modeling but is only offered in response to Kurt Konrath's post above as what I hope will be a helpful "required reading" list for Dale's class. Not only do these volumes cover the subject comprehensively, but all are valuable reference works worthy of being close at hand on any ship modeler's bookshelf whether they assemble kits or build from scratch. All are thoroughly and clearly illustrated, so, a picture being worth a thousand words, seemingly costly as some may be, they are all worthwhile investments. If these books had been available when I started getting serious about ship modeling, I'd have saved a lot of money buying books over the decades that I've been building my nautical research library, and I'd have a lot more room on my bookshelves! A tremendous amount of information about period ships has become far more accessible in recent times and can now be accessed expeditiously in far fewer books than was once the case.
 
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Could you provide a bit more granularity on what is involved in correcting the body plan? Also is there a standard for whether the forward or after profiles go on the left or right, or is it just a matter of preference for the draftsman?

first i do not think it matters what side the hull shape is on right or left. i have seen it both ways.

to correct bodylines or add bodylines this is what i do
taking another ship built on the lakes the Royal George as an example. Here is the admiralty plan. A historical side note the Royal George was built in England then taken apart and sent to Canada as a full scale kit where it was assembled.

royal george.jpg

and here is the bodyplan

royal george bp.jpg

the lines in the bodyplan are the station lines also drawn on the profile and hull line drawing. Here is a tracing of the bodyplan. The black lines are the original station lines from the admiralty plan the red lines are what i added for the missing frames.

finalbp test.jpg

first i drew horizontal lines through the bodyplan, the spacing does not matter. The two lines in red are the original station lines and i want to draw the frame shape between these stations.

nm1.jpg

i took out all the bodylines so you can see the only the two station lines


gf2.jpg

in CAD i selected the two lines and trimmed the horizontal lines.

gf3.jpg

the drawing program did the work, i used a spline and selected the midpoint of each horizontal line, CAD drew a smooth curve between the two red station lines

gf4.jpg

now i have the outside shape of the frame.

gf5.jpg

Working in CAD makes adding the missing frame shapes quite easy. I selected every other station line and trimmed them as a group.

so if you have a bodyline out of line or your adding frame shapes between stations CAD will produce accurate shaped frames. BUT if you are not using a drawing program you can do this old school and draw the line by hand and eye in the shape using the station lines as a guide.
 
johnd2117 said:
I am keen to know when and where your ship building school will begin.
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you are smack dap right in it .

i can see this entire thing getting all mixed up. I can not move posts into sub categories nor do i want to limit others from posting books and resources i welcome such additions. Keeping everything separate may become problem.
 
when i was sitting here figuring out how to go about this i had a plan.

1 research and where do you find plans

2 what to order and how the use the plans.
some of these original plans are big as big as 4 feet at 1/4 scale. That is to big to work with. If you order plans from a museum order a 6 x 10 photograph that was you can scan it and trace it. If photography are not available the order copies. I would take these plans to an office supply and have them scan the large originals and give me a digital file like a jpeg.

3 tracing the plans into a vector file so you can work with them

4 you can not start drawing until you know what to draw and what size everything is. Where does that information come from? it comes from contracts and the establishments and from master shipwrights personal record books.

scantlings 117.jpgscantlings 118.jpgscantlings 119.jpg

museum archives have a lot of contracts for every size vessel

shipscontract's001 cor.jpgshipscontract's002 cor.jpg

there are also a number of books that contain this information and historical references
 

Attachments

From the archives of Harold Hahn here is an article that addresses the subject of building in a jig. Over time Harold took a lot of smack talk about his method. It became a running joke he built his ships upside down and that is not how ships were built, the waste of material from the extensions above the frames. and builders were having a hard time making the built in a jig work.
first and foremost, this never was about how wooden ships were really built. Harold was trying to engineer a method to address the problems in framing up a model ship hull and giving a first time builder a better chance of succeeding.
i do not have the actual published article so the images he refers to have been added at the end.

img338.jpgimg339.jpgimg340.jpgimg341.jpgimg342.jpgimg343.jpgimg344.jpgimg345.jpgimg356.jpgimg357.jpgframes keel.jpgframes.jpgimg581.jpgimg582.jpgimg583.jpgimg584.jpgmethod7.jpg
 
As one of the 410 followers (or, more accurately, in my case, perusers) of this tome of a thread , I find it a: too long, opaque, discouraging, disheartening and b: dense with criticisms that can be construed as personal, or at least divisive in nature (e.g. NRG past v. NRG present; SoS v. MSW, the relative artistic merits of "kit builders" v. "scratch builders") the relative merits of kits past and kits present, or scratch-built v kit built (or bashed?) models, or c: the relative artistic/aesthetic/realistic and technical values placed on each.
I, for one, can only reserve such judgements based upon the completed offerings of each individual, according to their means and best efforts, no matter how arrived at, with what amount of background knowledge and experience. You don't have to be Michelangelo or Leonardo to produce a great work of art. Or have a PHD to produce a concept worthy of contemplation or be a naval architect to produce a ship model of artistic merit worthy of admiration.

I have found Dave Stevens offerings here on SoS and through the Lumberyard to be by turns, helpful, useful and of the highest quality. I am sure any books, tutorials and offerings of instruction going forward will be the same. Unfortunately, with this current thread, I am lost in the weeds and opinions, and perhaps (due to my own intellectual, artistic and technical inadequacies, as well as limited attention span) am exhausted and can't keep up. :eek:

Your humble and obedient servant, Pete Gutterman
 
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Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
4 you can not start drawing until you know what to draw and what size everything is. Where does that information come from? it comes from contracts and the establishments and from master shipwrights personal record books.
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This is why I included Alan Yedlinsky's Scantlings of the Royal Navy book on my "reading list." It's all there in readily accessible spread sheet format! It's a huge research time saver.
 
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Hahn goes into great detail about setting up these laminated frame blanks in his Ships of the American Revolution and Their Models. He devised a jig that was used to cut the various angles for the sections to be laminated. Finding this to be difficult to understand, I devised an alternate method which worked well for me at the time. I used standard birch tongue depressors which are easily sourced from craft stores for the stock. These tongue depressors are about 1/16" thick and entirely free of knots or grain figuring. Their light color makes them suitable for any staining one might wish to do to mimic other species than birch. I cut and trimmed the angles "freehand" by "eyeball" as necessary with a standard paper cutter which effortlessly cut the thin birch tongue depressors cleanly and without splintering or cracking. The speed and ease of cutting the angles freehand on the paper cutter made adjusting the angles where necessary easy. The very low cost of the tongue depressors rendered waste considerations negligible. The sections were stacked up to the width (sided dimension) required with the joints staggered in the layup, of course. There's no need to produce blanks as neatly done as illustrated above. All that's required is that the frame pattern can cover the lamination stack. I used Titebond PVA to glue them using multiple binder clips for clamping. Worked a treat. I didn't need to draft patterns for the layups. I just made sure the frame patterns were covered by the layup, glued a copy of the frame onto the layup, and cut the frame on my scroll saw.

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I also use my paper cutters for a variety of other modeling tasks such as cutting card stock and even sheet copper. They are somewhat costly if purchased new but are fairly common and can often be found at garage sales and online auctions.
 
Peter Gutterman said:
As one of the 410 followers (or, more accurately, in my case, perusers) of this tome of a thread , I find it a: too long, opaque, discouraging, disheartening and b: dense with criticisms that can be construed as personal, or at least divisive in nature (e.g. NRG past v. NRG present; SoS v. MSW, the relative artistic merits of "kit builders" v. "scratch builders") the relative merits of kits past and kits present, or scratch-built v kit built (or bashed?) models, or c: the relative artistic/aesthetic/realistic and technical values placed on each.
I, for one, can only reserve such judgements based upon the completed offerings of each individual, according to their means and best efforts, no matter how arrived at, with what amount of background knowledge and experience. You don't have to be Michelangelo or Leonardo to produce a great work of art. Or have a PHD to produce a concept worthy of contemplation or be a naval architect to produce a ship model of artistic merit worthy of admiration.

I have found Dave Stevens offerings here on SoS and through the Lumberyard to be by turns, helpful, useful and of the highest quality. I am sure any books, tutorials and offerings of instruction going forward will be the same. Unfortunately, with this current thread, I am lost in the weeds and opinions, and perhaps (due to my own intellectual, artistic and technical inadequacies, as well as limited attention span) am exhausted and can't keep up. :eek:

Your humble and obedient servant, Pete Gutterman
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You might find it helpful to think of it more as a graduate level seminar than a "101" entry level undergraduate survey course. That said, ignore the "seminar discussions" and just read Dave's posts alone and you should get a lot of value from the course. You can always drop your "for credit" enrollment and simply "audit" the course without risking your GPA. :D
 
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