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HMS Agamemnon by Caldercraft
- Thread starter HMSFly
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- agamemnon caldercraft
It took me two weeks to put the second planking under the Main Wall...considering that this is all covered with about 2,500 copper plates...
It’s a shame to cover it up. You did a beautiful planking job!
Next step...
Planking the part above the mainwale.
But before starting, I thought it would be a good idea to implement the frame of each Sheave. It should extend slightly above the 1 x 5mm strips so I can sand them flush with the strips later.
The stern still needs some attention: some finishing touches (sanding) and then applying the second layer of trim. Note the openings for the rear guns...I'm going to do something special with these.
Planking the part above the mainwale.
But before starting, I thought it would be a good idea to implement the frame of each Sheave. It should extend slightly above the 1 x 5mm strips so I can sand them flush with the strips later.
The stern still needs some attention: some finishing touches (sanding) and then applying the second layer of trim. Note the openings for the rear guns...I'm going to do something special with these.
Hey Iutar,
I based myself on photo's you send me in the past, I think the HMS Victory ?????
Marc
the progress.....
The second planking is almost done! Of course, it was a lot of work, and I did my utmost to glue the strips without any gaps. Then I sanded with 240 and then the main wall... 
But!
As mentioned, I'll be deviating from the decoration of the stern. I'll be decorating the arch (see Iutar's earlier post) and the area above it, just like the real Agamemnon used to be.
According to my information, three naked Trojan women hold aloft two silhouettes. One of George III and the other of his wife Charlotte.
But how do you make those Trojan women? Sculpt them yourself from pieces of linden wood (max. 1 inch long) or think outside the box. Well, I bought a kit of plastic figures like those used by architects. I happened to find one with three women... And the rest: some carving, some CA glue, some tinkering, some sanding, and then painting... Wait and see!
But!
As mentioned, I'll be deviating from the decoration of the stern. I'll be decorating the arch (see Iutar's earlier post) and the area above it, just like the real Agamemnon used to be.
According to my information, three naked Trojan women hold aloft two silhouettes. One of George III and the other of his wife Charlotte.
But how do you make those Trojan women? Sculpt them yourself from pieces of linden wood (max. 1 inch long) or think outside the box. Well, I bought a kit of plastic figures like those used by architects. I happened to find one with three women... And the rest: some carving, some CA glue, some tinkering, some sanding, and then painting... Wait and see!
Dear Mark, you're joking. This isn't your information. Malcolm Darch said so. But I already warned you that his development is complete nonsense.
Let's look at Pocock's paintings again. Our ship was painted by Pocock several times. Here's an early work, here's a later one. Do you see three naked Trojan women with portraits on the taffrail? Personally, I don't see it and I'm surprised that Malcolm saw what he said here!
So, I don't see any three women here. But I do see something I've encountered many times before. More on that in the next post.
The below is Elephant (74) 1786 (See RMG drawing ZAZ 1070 in low resolution on the RMG Collections website or in high resolution on Wiki Commons website for a clearer picture)
Continuation of my previous message.
The fact is that traditionally, sculptures on the taffrail conveyed a specific message; they featured specific characters and depicted a specific story, alluding to the ship's name. Each ship had its own unique story depicted on the taffrail, related to its name.
The reason is simple: in those years, ships were built in series and were almost indistinguishable in appearance, and the overwhelming majority of people, especially sailors, were illiterate.
Example: The ship "Pegasus." The sculptures on the taffrail depict the birth of Pegasus from the blood of the unfortunate Gorgon Medusa. The Gorgon is on the right, Perseus, who cut off the Gorgon's head, is on the left. Pegasus strikes an underground spring in the mountains with his hoof. On the left and right are masks of tragedy and comedy, as Pegasus was a patron of the arts.
Another example. The ship "Atalanta." Atalanta is reclining in the center, holding a golden apple in her hand. There is a ribbon on his arm with the inscription "you won".
On the left is Hippomenes scattering golden apples; on the right is Aphrodite plucking these apples from the apple tree for Hippomenes.
The quartos depict the palaces of Zeus and the lions driven from them—everything just as in the legend. In those days, the legends and myths of Ancient Greece and Rome were enormously popular, and anyone could easily recognize a particular myth in the sculptures.
And so it was for many years. Any illiterate sailor or foreigner who didn't know English, seeing the sculpture in the center of the taffrail, depicting a muscular hero with a sword, riding a winged Pegasus, would exclaim: "Oh! Why, that's the ship Bellerophon!" Because he knew that the only one who could ride Pegasus was Bellerophon.
This is how people recognized their ships by the significant events depicted on the taffrail.
Example: The ship "Fly." Here, the fly signifies flight, not an insect. The ship seems to fly, possessing lightness and speed. The main winds are allegorically depicted on the taffrail in the center, and the gods on the sides. The figurehead depicts Mercury, the god of flight.
The fact is that traditionally, sculptures on the taffrail conveyed a specific message; they featured specific characters and depicted a specific story, alluding to the ship's name. Each ship had its own unique story depicted on the taffrail, related to its name.
The reason is simple: in those years, ships were built in series and were almost indistinguishable in appearance, and the overwhelming majority of people, especially sailors, were illiterate.
Example: The ship "Pegasus." The sculptures on the taffrail depict the birth of Pegasus from the blood of the unfortunate Gorgon Medusa. The Gorgon is on the right, Perseus, who cut off the Gorgon's head, is on the left. Pegasus strikes an underground spring in the mountains with his hoof. On the left and right are masks of tragedy and comedy, as Pegasus was a patron of the arts.
Another example. The ship "Atalanta." Atalanta is reclining in the center, holding a golden apple in her hand. There is a ribbon on his arm with the inscription "you won".
On the left is Hippomenes scattering golden apples; on the right is Aphrodite plucking these apples from the apple tree for Hippomenes.
The quartos depict the palaces of Zeus and the lions driven from them—everything just as in the legend. In those days, the legends and myths of Ancient Greece and Rome were enormously popular, and anyone could easily recognize a particular myth in the sculptures.
And so it was for many years. Any illiterate sailor or foreigner who didn't know English, seeing the sculpture in the center of the taffrail, depicting a muscular hero with a sword, riding a winged Pegasus, would exclaim: "Oh! Why, that's the ship Bellerophon!" Because he knew that the only one who could ride Pegasus was Bellerophon.
This is how people recognized their ships by the significant events depicted on the taffrail.
Example: The ship "Fly." Here, the fly signifies flight, not an insect. The ship seems to fly, possessing lightness and speed. The main winds are allegorically depicted on the taffrail in the center, and the gods on the sides. The figurehead depicts Mercury, the god of flight.
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Allan, I'm talking about something completely different. I'm talking about the waist! Mark stuffed three sheave holes into the waist, something that had never happened before.
Thanks to all for this interesting thread.
Now concerning HMS AGAMEMNON, what should we interpret from Nicholas Pocock's painting? It look like a horse in the middle of the taffrail (horse of troy ?). what is on left and right sides ? Hector, Paris, Helen ??
Who can clarify that ? many thanks..
Now concerning HMS AGAMEMNON, what should we interpret from Nicholas Pocock's painting? It look like a horse in the middle of the taffrail (horse of troy ?). what is on left and right sides ? Hector, Paris, Helen ??
Who can clarify that ? many thanks..
Continuation.
Even if the ship's name was not connected with myths and legends, it still somehow stood out on the taffrail.
For example, the ship "Leopard" had an image of a leopard in the center, "Elephant" had an image of an elephant, and so on.
Pictured: In the center of the ship's taffrail is a scene depicting the mythological creature, Serpent, now known as the Snake.
And what will the sculptures on the taffrail of the bombardier ship Granado depict? A grenade, of course, and warriors in the Chinese style (where the pyrotechnics originated).
Ships could also have simple portraits of various characters from myths and legends, as well as real people and historical figures, on their taffrails.
As in this example:
For example, the ship "Kingfisher" had a sculpted portrait of the fisherman king Peles from the legend of King Arthur on the taffrail in the center, and below it was an image of a bird, a kingfisher, apparently so that no one would get confused (King Fisher, a play on words).
If the ship was the first in a series, then often in the center of the taffrail there is a ball mejon with an image of George III (for example, the ships Bellona, Victory) or his wife Charlotte (for example, the ship Zebra).
There are also many similar examples in my message 184.
The taffrail's decoration also features the monograms of the king and his wife. However, the coat of arms, which was obligatory in the 17th century, had almost completely disappeared from the taffrail by the end of the 18th century.
If you see a coat of arms on the taffrail on a late 18th century model, it is most likely a fake.
to be continued
Even if the ship's name was not connected with myths and legends, it still somehow stood out on the taffrail.
For example, the ship "Leopard" had an image of a leopard in the center, "Elephant" had an image of an elephant, and so on.
Pictured: In the center of the ship's taffrail is a scene depicting the mythological creature, Serpent, now known as the Snake.
And what will the sculptures on the taffrail of the bombardier ship Granado depict? A grenade, of course, and warriors in the Chinese style (where the pyrotechnics originated).
Ships could also have simple portraits of various characters from myths and legends, as well as real people and historical figures, on their taffrails.
As in this example:
For example, the ship "Kingfisher" had a sculpted portrait of the fisherman king Peles from the legend of King Arthur on the taffrail in the center, and below it was an image of a bird, a kingfisher, apparently so that no one would get confused (King Fisher, a play on words).
If the ship was the first in a series, then often in the center of the taffrail there is a ball mejon with an image of George III (for example, the ships Bellona, Victory) or his wife Charlotte (for example, the ship Zebra).
There are also many similar examples in my message 184.
The taffrail's decoration also features the monograms of the king and his wife. However, the coat of arms, which was obligatory in the 17th century, had almost completely disappeared from the taffrail by the end of the 18th century.
If you see a coat of arms on the taffrail on a late 18th century model, it is most likely a fake.
to be continued
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I look at Pocock's paintings and believe that the bust of King Agamemnon is depicted in the center of the taffrail of the ship Agamemnon, flanked by the main characters of the legend about this king. On the left is the king's daughter, Iphigenia. She is turned toward her father, her hands pleading. Under her hands, presumably, is the execution block.
It's hard to see the figure on the right, but it's larger. I assume it's Achilles, of course. Achilles usually points his hand at the king because they are arguing.
These two characters are the most dramatic and memorable in the story of Agamemnon, and to avoid confusion about which hero the ship is named after, they are shown specifically.
It's clear that the figurehead will also depict Agamemnon.What should he look like? We don't care how the ancient Greeks depicted the king; we care how he was depicted in the 18th century. The classical Agamemnon is of advanced age, with curly hair and a beard. He always wears the armor that was given to him in the legend.
It's hard to see the figure on the right, but it's larger. I assume it's Achilles, of course. Achilles usually points his hand at the king because they are arguing.
These two characters are the most dramatic and memorable in the story of Agamemnon, and to avoid confusion about which hero the ship is named after, they are shown specifically.
It's clear that the figurehead will also depict Agamemnon.What should he look like? We don't care how the ancient Greeks depicted the king; we care how he was depicted in the 18th century. The classical Agamemnon is of advanced age, with curly hair and a beard. He always wears the armor that was given to him in the legend.
Iutar,
thank you to share those informations and your point of view relating to the stern decoration of hms Agamemnon.
Concerning the figurehead I wrote this in Anthony Deane's "NELSON's FAVOURITE" :
"... his torso covered by a breastplate and his bodydraped in folds of white. He brandished a sword in his handand his dark tresses flowed backward from beneath his golden helmet..."
Unfortunatly, nothing about the stern decoration
The spike foreseen by Cadlercraft must be replaced by a sword
william
my model :
thank you to share those informations and your point of view relating to the stern decoration of hms Agamemnon.
Concerning the figurehead I wrote this in Anthony Deane's "NELSON's FAVOURITE" :
"... his torso covered by a breastplate and his bodydraped in folds of white. He brandished a sword in his handand his dark tresses flowed backward from beneath his golden helmet..."
Unfortunatly, nothing about the stern decoration
The spike foreseen by Cadlercraft must be replaced by a sword
william
my model :
Hi Iutar,
Your explanation seems perfectly logical to me. So the theme must be related to Agamemnon. What do you suggest for a layout?
So three figures..
Left ?
Middel: Agamemnon
Right figure?
Dear William,
So you also suggest to adapt the spike by an sword?
So Caldercraft's statement is incorrect again?
Thx again...I ask before make mistakes .....
Your explanation seems perfectly logical to me. So the theme must be related to Agamemnon. What do you suggest for a layout?
So three figures..
Left ?
Middel: Agamemnon
Right figure?
Dear William,
So you also suggest to adapt the spike by an sword?
So Caldercraft's statement is incorrect again?
Thx again...I ask before make mistakes .....
Dear Iutar,
Below is a photo of the original model in the possession of the shipyard that built the ship. Note the red and blue colors.
Although I have no doubts whatsoever about the accuracy of the information, I wrote a letter requesting photos of the stern as well.An original painting of the launch of the Agamemnon is also interesting. See the colors, and especially the stern.
I found also following picture of the launch of the Agamemnon... 2 women holding the picture of George III and Charlotte?
Below is a photo of the original model in the possession of the shipyard that built the ship. Note the red and blue colors.
Although I have no doubts whatsoever about the accuracy of the information, I wrote a letter requesting photos of the stern as well.An original painting of the launch of the Agamemnon is also interesting. See the colors, and especially the stern.
I found also following picture of the launch of the Agamemnon... 2 women holding the picture of George III and Charlotte?
Dear Mark! I know this model. It appears at first glance to be painted according to the rules of the time. It would seem like a relief, but no: the black boats immediately negate the historical accuracy of this model.
Dear Mark! This picture only confirms my assumption from message 216: "I look at Pocock's paintings and believe that the bust of King Agamemnon is depicted in the center of the taffrail of the ship Agamemnon, flanked by the main characters of the legend about this king. On the left is the king's daughter, Iphigenia. She is turned toward her father, her hands pleading. Under her hands, presumably, is the execution block. It's hard to see the figure on the right, but it's larger. I assume it's Achilles, of course. Achilles usually points his hand at the king because they are arguing."