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HMS Agamemnon by Caldercraft
- Thread starter HMSFly
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- agamemnon caldercraft
The top of the rudder and the top of the sternpost, on the other hand, need to be enlarged. The easiest way to do this is to directly take the dimensions from a photograph of this third-rank model (unfortunately, the museum drawings of the Agamemnon don't have the required drawing).
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Dear Mark! I took another look at your blog. You still haven't used the museum's ship plans, have you? Download the plans from these links; they have high-resolution images. These drawings are very important. Comparing archival drawings and photographs of the Agamemnon model, I suddenly discovered a huge error by Chris Watton that made my hair stand on end! I recommend immediately halting work on the upper deck and superstructure. I also strongly urge you to take high-quality photographs of the upper deck and superstructure plans from the instructions, as well as a longitudinal section. Throw them here or send them to me in a letter, and I will make notes on these pictures. Please take photos of the instructions large enough for me to properly mark and draw on them. I'll show you something that will make you fall off your chair!
commons.wikimedia.org
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commons.wikimedia.org
commons.wikimedia.org
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commons.wikimedia.org
commons.wikimedia.org
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File:'Ardent' (1764); 'Nassau' (1785) RMG J3362.png - Wikimedia Commons
File:'Ardent' (1764); 'Nassau' (1785) RMG J3360.png - Wikimedia Commons
File:'Ardent' (1764); 'Nassau' (1785) RMG J3359.png - Wikimedia Commons
File:'Ardent' (1764); 'Nassau' (1785) RMG J3361.png - Wikimedia Commons
Category:HMS Indefatigable (ship, 1784) - Wikimedia Commons
Category:HMS Nassau (ship, 1785) - Wikimedia Commons
Category:HMS Nassau (ship, 1785) - Wikimedia Commons
Category:HMS Nassau (ship, 1785) - Wikimedia Commons
Category:HMS Nassau (ship, 1785) - Wikimedia Commons
Category:HMS Nassau (ship, 1785) - Wikimedia Commons
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I was curious about the amount of taper for a British 64 and wound up going back to Steel's Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture and the Shipbuilder's Repository as the contracts I have for 64's do not give any the dimension for the fore end of the knee of the head nor do the Establishments. The following may be interesting for various size ships of the second half of the 18th century and into the 19th century. The marked block is for a 64 and shows 5". What surprised me is the amount of taper on a first rate, going from 1' 7 1/2" at the stem down to 6" at the fore end.
Allan
Allan
Ok Iutar wil send you plans by mail...Dear Mark! I took another look at your blog. You still haven't used the museum's ship plans, have you? Download the plans from these links; they have high-resolution images. These drawings are very important. Comparing archival drawings and photographs of the Agamemnon model, I suddenly discovered a huge error by Chris Watton that made my hair stand on end! I recommend immediately halting work on the upper deck and superstructure. I also strongly urge you to take high-quality photographs of the upper deck and superstructure plans from the instructions, as well as a longitudinal section. Throw them here or send them to me in a letter, and I will make notes on these pictures. Please take photos of the instructions large enough for me to properly mark and draw on them. I'll show you something that will make you fall off your chair!
File:'Ardent' (1764); 'Nassau' (1785) RMG J3362.png - Wikimedia Commons
File:'Ardent' (1764); 'Nassau' (1785) RMG J3360.png - Wikimedia Commons
File:'Ardent' (1764); 'Nassau' (1785) RMG J3359.png - Wikimedia Commons
File:'Ardent' (1764); 'Nassau' (1785) RMG J3361.png - Wikimedia Commons
Category:HMS Indefatigable (ship, 1784) - Wikimedia Commons
Category:HMS Nassau (ship, 1785) - Wikimedia Commons
Category:HMS Nassau (ship, 1785) - Wikimedia Commons
Category:HMS Nassau (ship, 1785) - Wikimedia Commons
Category:HMS Nassau (ship, 1785) - Wikimedia Commons
Category:HMS Nassau (ship, 1785) - Wikimedia Commons
Wil take time because scale of drawings is A0....en have to take a lot of foto's!
Marc
PS
I'm working on the Main Wale and providing Top and butt planking...
I'm working on the Main Wale and providing Top and butt planking...
Why "Top and Butt"? Sir Thomas Slade introduced "Hook and Butt" for the third rank. In addition, Slade is the author of the Ardent series. Mr. Dean made a mistake in his book about Nelson's ships, providing inaccurate diagrams. In those days, even the fifth rate was called "Hook and Butt."
Dear Mark, take the ready-made plans shown in message 194. They include an adapted version from the best specialist, Brian Lavery, and a genuine museum drawing by Montague. Simply transfer these plans to the body of your model and confidently create the parts on-site. You don't even have to think, just transfer the museum drawings to the model.
In the photo below, this is what a real hook and butt looks like. Notice the hooks have obtuse angles. Modern draftsmen often draw sharp angles, but in real life, such wooden parts break.
Dear Mark, take the ready-made plans shown in message 194. They include an adapted version from the best specialist, Brian Lavery, and a genuine museum drawing by Montague. Simply transfer these plans to the body of your model and confidently create the parts on-site. You don't even have to think, just transfer the museum drawings to the model.
In the photo below, this is what a real hook and butt looks like. Notice the hooks have obtuse angles. Modern draftsmen often draw sharp angles, but in real life, such wooden parts break.
The source I used:
Mails send
I understand. It's a great book for modelers on how to make a model, but it doesn't provide historically accurate information.
Dear Mark, Chapter three of this book clearly demonstrates that Mr. Longridge is completely unaware of the different ways in which "anchor and stock" boards can be installed. Unfortunately, he only knows "top and butt," which fits his description of the Victory ship, which does not have real hull plating.
I have more faith in the actual drawing from those years, the actual model from the great Slade, other models and the real historian Lavery, who directly points to sources from archival materials.
Another model from the Greenwich collection, showing the hook and butt method, third rank, HMS Egmont.
Mark, I looked at the photos. I didn't even expect it to be this bad. There are far more errors than I imagined (you probably spotted some thanks to Mr. Longridge's book).
But it's going to be a glorious battle!
Unfortunately, I can't tell you all about it right now. I'll need some time to give an overview.
Dear Mark! Since you're currently busy working on the wales, I'd like to point out an error I noticed in your photos. The so-called "black strike" is missing above the main wale. It's clearly visible in the diagrams in post 194.
You should also check the width of the upper wale, as Chris Watton typically adjusts its width to the size of the wooden planks in his designs. On Chris's model the upper wale is clearly smaller in width.
The upper wale should consist of three stripes.
The "black strike" stripe was usually not shown on general drawings, so it's not present on the archived drawings. However, it's clearly visible on the models.
You should also check the width of the upper wale, as Chris Watton typically adjusts its width to the size of the wooden planks in his designs. On Chris's model the upper wale is clearly smaller in width.
The upper wale should consist of three stripes.
The "black strike" stripe was usually not shown on general drawings, so it's not present on the archived drawings. However, it's clearly visible on the models.
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Also, pay attention to the height of the waist rail. Judging by your instruction photos, Chris placed the waist rail slightly higher than shown in the archive drawings. At the midship frame, the waist rail runs through the middle of the gun port. You will need to lower the waist rail a little lower
I redo the main wall , according to your drawing. But, I'm out of wood, so I need 1 x 10 mm strips for this, and I can't get them only Wednesday...
Can I use a 1 x 1 mm strip for the black strike? Painted black?
Can I use a 1 x 1 mm strip for the black strike? Painted black?
I THINK the black strake would be the same width as the other planking. It is acutally thicker than the planking above and thinner than the wales, but most folks don't go that far. The black strake was the first strake of thick stuff upon the wales. The below gives the various thicknesses and breadths of planking in the contract for Nassau (64) 1782 so should be close if not exactly the same.
Allan
Mark, one more confirmation.
Mark, the documents Allan found completely match the figures Brian Lavery showed for third-rank ships. That's good.
Unfortunately, none of us can tell you the millimeters, because the photos of the plans you sent me don't indicate the slat thicknesses. For convenience, let's assume your first finishing sheathing is made from 1 mm thick slats.
Let's start counting.
The hull planking thickness is measured from the frames. Your thickness calculations should take into account that one layer of planking has already been applied to the hull.
We know that the normal planking between the wales was actually 4 inches thick. For you it is 1 mm.
The thickness of the Main Weles was 8 and 1/2 inches.
This means that you need to make main wales from planks with a thickness of 1+ mm.
The black strike is exactly half the thickness between the regular sheathing and the velour, that is, you need to make the black strike from a 0.5 mm thick strip.
Just to be clear: "Black Strike" is an unofficial and later name, but it's used in Longridge's book, and you'll find it easier to find in this tome. Incidentally, this belt has nothing to do with the color black; it's just the name.
The width of the main wales was 4 feet 3 inches.
(4x12+3)x25,4/64=20,24mm
That is, you, knowing that main wales consists of two stripes, chose a 1x10mm strip. But you don't have to do that. You won't get two pieces, top and bottom, from the same strip. Your photo shows that the bottom piece worked, but the top one is a reject that needs to be thrown out.
Moreover, you are not taking into account the important fact that the stripes will have different lengths and bends due to the peculiarities of the body shape!
You basically can't have a single block. The ancient shipbuilders couldn't do that either, which is why they made four belts. You're wasting your time, effort, and money. You can't make two belts from a 10mm strip.
You don't need a 10mm wide strip. You need a 6mm wide strip. It's very simple.
I told you earlier: first, apply the design to the body (hull) of the model.
Then you make only one (the bottom!) piece from the 6mm wide strip. You take the dimensions and shape of this part directly from the drawing on the hull. As you make the part, you periodically place it against the drawing on the hull of the model. So, gradually, you first glue the bottom band. Then you make the matching top band, constantly adjusting the pieces to those already glued.
You'll make two belts, then the next two belts above them, one after the other. It's time-consuming, but it's high-quality and precise, and most importantly, simple and beautiful. Believe me, your original plan is too complicated and won't work.
According to calculations, the top of the piece is 6 mm, and its edges are 4 mm high. Therefore, the piece placed on top will add up to the required 10 mm.
Mark, the documents Allan found completely match the figures Brian Lavery showed for third-rank ships. That's good.
Unfortunately, none of us can tell you the millimeters, because the photos of the plans you sent me don't indicate the slat thicknesses. For convenience, let's assume your first finishing sheathing is made from 1 mm thick slats.
Let's start counting.
The hull planking thickness is measured from the frames. Your thickness calculations should take into account that one layer of planking has already been applied to the hull.
We know that the normal planking between the wales was actually 4 inches thick. For you it is 1 mm.
The thickness of the Main Weles was 8 and 1/2 inches.
This means that you need to make main wales from planks with a thickness of 1+ mm.
The black strike is exactly half the thickness between the regular sheathing and the velour, that is, you need to make the black strike from a 0.5 mm thick strip.
Just to be clear: "Black Strike" is an unofficial and later name, but it's used in Longridge's book, and you'll find it easier to find in this tome. Incidentally, this belt has nothing to do with the color black; it's just the name.
The width of the main wales was 4 feet 3 inches.
(4x12+3)x25,4/64=20,24mm
That is, you, knowing that main wales consists of two stripes, chose a 1x10mm strip. But you don't have to do that. You won't get two pieces, top and bottom, from the same strip. Your photo shows that the bottom piece worked, but the top one is a reject that needs to be thrown out.
Moreover, you are not taking into account the important fact that the stripes will have different lengths and bends due to the peculiarities of the body shape!
You basically can't have a single block. The ancient shipbuilders couldn't do that either, which is why they made four belts. You're wasting your time, effort, and money. You can't make two belts from a 10mm strip.
You don't need a 10mm wide strip. You need a 6mm wide strip. It's very simple.
I told you earlier: first, apply the design to the body (hull) of the model.
Then you make only one (the bottom!) piece from the 6mm wide strip. You take the dimensions and shape of this part directly from the drawing on the hull. As you make the part, you periodically place it against the drawing on the hull of the model. So, gradually, you first glue the bottom band. Then you make the matching top band, constantly adjusting the pieces to those already glued.
You'll make two belts, then the next two belts above them, one after the other. It's time-consuming, but it's high-quality and precise, and most importantly, simple and beautiful. Believe me, your original plan is too complicated and won't work.
According to calculations, the top of the piece is 6 mm, and its edges are 4 mm high. Therefore, the piece placed on top will add up to the required 10 mm.