Help - Building frames for ship built from plans

Gilles Korent

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Hello,
Please, we need your help...
One of our fellow modelers is having a dilemma building frames for his model.
The construction of his frame is the traditional 2-layer frame.
To familiarize yourself with his project, here is the building log: https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/le-rochefort.3325/page-23
He is using the method most commonly used: paper pattern for each part of the frames glued to lumber. The patterns are then cut out and prepared for assembly.
The problem is the following:
Once individual parts are cut and ready for assembly, the paper pattern is still glued to the part. As the frame is built in 2 layers, the layers need to be glued together. Leaving the paper sandwiched between the 2 layers is not a wise practice. So how do you assemble the 2 layers, and most importantly, how do you line up the parts of the top layers over the bottom layer?
Here is how I personally build my frames: https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/le-rochefort.3325/page-18#post-87714

We are looking for advice: the most important part of the problem being how do you make sure the 2 layers line up once the paper pattern has been removed from the joint area between the two layers?

Your input is much appreciated.
Thank you.
G.
 
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Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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I just do not understand what is the point in first cutting a frame pattern apart, gluing each part separately on a sheet of wood, Try to accurately cut it out then try to reassemble it.

to me it sounds like a taking a simple task and making it much harder than it really is
Rube Goldberg
A Rube Goldberg machine, named after American cartoonist Rube Goldberg, is a machine intentionally designed to perform a simple task in an indirect and overly complicated way.

Why not just build frame blanks all you have to do is make sure the butt ends fit nice, then glue the frame pattern to the blank and cut it out in one piece that seems to be so simple and accurate.

 

Gilles Korent

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Don' t to be a pain in the butt or a smart-ass but....

I just do not understand why one would have to change the method one chooses to make his or her frames, although this type of reply was kind of expected.

Looking for a solution to a particular problem within the parameters set by the modeler…

Before the method you describe was “invented”, modelers were, and I should add, are still successful at building frames the way this modeler chose to do it. I could post dozen’s of links of ships being built this way: I have posted details of my frame building method as an example.
This may be something some people cannot understand but it is simple and just as accurate.

The post is not a debate as to what method is best by way of being more efficient or more accurate as this particular subject could be debated at length.

The goal is to find a solution to the alignment dilemma: a step being part of a particular method described in the original post.
Looking for input from modelers who are using this method.

Thank you.

G.
 
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donfarr

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COME ON GUYS LET US KEEP GOING THIS IS WHAT WE NEED NEW TOPIC NEW DEBATE, TO KEEP SOS FROM STAGNATING, AT THIS CRISES it is something that we all can do, come in NIGEL, UWE, MIKE SHANKS, MIKE 41, JIM, STEVEN, LAWRENCE, and all, we do need hep. THANKS Don
 

mrshanks

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Don' t to be a pain in the butt or a smart-ass but....
... you are. Dave was simply trying to offer a simpler way to make frames. Perhaps the method chosen by the modeler is beyond his skill level. I spent a portion of my professional career teaching. The indicators are clear to me that another method might be the best course.

You seem to be more familiar with this form of frame construction than anyone else so why are you seeking additional input? You got the ball.... run with it.
 

donfarr

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IN EVERY INTRODUCTION TO NEW MEMBERS WE ALL SAY WE ARE THERE TO HELP JUST ASK, NOW LET US DO AS WE SAY AND PROVE IT. Don
 

donfarr

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NO MIKE KEEP IT FRIENDLY, AND RIGHT NOW IT IS NOT ABOVE MY PAY GRADE AND I AM HAVING A BALL LEARNING IF NOTHING ELSE HAPPENS ON THIS PROJECT I WOULD CONSIDER IT A SUCESS, JUST KEEP IT FRIENDLY PLEASE
 

donfarr

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NO ZOLY FOR MANY REASONS, WHAT I AM DOING IS SOMETHING SIMILAR TO WHAT DAVE IS SUGESTING LET US CALL IT A SEMI-HAHN, BY LEAVING MORE THEN ENOUGH MEAT ON THE FRAME AND AS YOU STATED THE JOINTS ARE PART OF THE METHOD OF THIS TYPE OF BUILD, AND THIS IS NO CRITISIMS OF MY DEAR FRIEND DAVE STEVENS, JUST A OBSERVATION IN YOUR WONDERFULL KITS FROM THEHAN PLANS YOU FURNISH LASSER CUT FRAMES SHOWING FUTTOCKS, AND AS I STATED I AM MORE THEN PLEASED WITH THIS SET UP WILL NO MORE WHEN I START DOING MORE SANDING, JUST LOVE IT HAVE NOT SPENT THIS MUCH TIME ON ONE PROJECT FOR A LONG, LONG TIME, SO THAT SAYS SOMETHING,,,,,,,, AND TO ALL MY FRIENDS PLEASE KEEP IT PLEASANT THIS COULD BE A SHOWCASE FOR SOS FOR NEW MEMBERS, KEEP IT CIVIL, NEED NOT FIGHT OVER TOILET PAPER. Don
 

donfarr

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NO MY GOOD FRIEND CONTINUE IT IS A GOOD DEBATE, NOT SHUT DOWN PLEASE CONTRIBUTE. Don
 

Dave Stevens (Lumberyard)

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NO MY GOOD FRIEND CONTINUE IT IS A GOOD DEBATE,
don

The post is not a debate as to what method is best by way of being more efficient or more accurate
gills


sorry
Gills said it is not up to debate do it his way or get out of the conversation
 

davef

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Ok Here is my 2 cents
From what I read 1} Paper glued to fra,e members. If you used high stick glue, my only solution is to sand the paper off. The use of nail polish or some other desolver my impact the wood.
2}how to align the frames to be finish glued. What I have done in the past is print out a complete frame all joined together and then put saran over the plans pin down and then start gluing andassemb;ing the frames.
All the while checking the joints for as great a joint as possible. little or no gaps.
It takes time but it will be worth it.
BTW try getting or using low stick adhesive. you peel of the paper when done. 3M made such a product a while ago.


Also to EVERYONE. I am by no means an expert, but Please respect everyone Everyone has an opinion under these difficult times no need for nastiness. Dave was just trying to offer perhaps an easier solution. If it doesn't fit now it may in the future. We are a community who values others opinions. Enough said
My friends Dave F.
 

Gilles Korent

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So before anyone else misinterpret my reply, here is what the original question (and context) was:

"Once individual parts are cut and ready for assembly, the paper pattern is still glued to the part. As the frame is built in 2 layers, the layers need to be glued together. Leaving the paper sandwiched between the 2 layers is not a wise practice. So how do you assemble the 2 layers, and most importantly, how do you line up the parts of the top layers over the bottom layer?
Here is how I personally build my frames: https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/le-rochefort.3325/page-18#post-87714

We are looking for advice: the most important part of the problem being how do you make sure the 2 layers line up once the paper pattern has been removed from the joint area between the two layers?"

so that we end up with frame contour lines on the top face as well as the bottom face in view of working the bevels.

A simple, straightforward question was asked about a specific subject.
Had I wanted someone to convince me or anyone else to use another method to make a frame for this particular project, I would have asked. Thank you!

I hate it when I go to the grocery store to buy milk and the clerk tries to sell me a car!

Kindest regards.
G.

Mike, if I may call you by your first name, here we go again...
GO JUMP....
 
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Gilles Korent

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Ok Here is my 2 cents
From what I read 1} Paper glued to fra,e members. If you used high stick glue, my only solution is to sand the paper off. The use of nail polish or some other desolver my impact the wood.
2}how to align the frames to be finish glued. What I have done in the past is print out a complete frame all joined together and then put saran over the plans pin down and then start gluing andassemb;ing the frames.
All the while checking the joints for as great a joint as possible. little or no gaps.
It takes time but it will be worth it.
BTW try getting or using low stick adhesive. you peel of the paper when done. 3M made such a product a while ago.

My friends Dave F.
Thank you. Much appreciated.
G
 

donfarr

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THANK YOU DAVE F for your reply, I USE ALMOST THE SAME PROCESS AS YOU DO with pins LOK AT MY LOG Le ROCHEFORT, TO DIGRESS A LITTLE THIS IS MY FIRST SCRATCH BUILD AND MY FIRST FRENCH SHIP BOTH NEW TO ME and GILLES ACCEPTED MY PLEA FOR HELP AND IT HAS BEEN A FANTASTIC LEARNING EXPERIENCE THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENTWAYS TO DO THING THAT IS WHY WE NEED COMMENTS FOR VARIOUS REASONS WHAT WORKS FOR SOMONE MAY NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER EXPIERMENT IS THE ONLY WAY SOME I TOOK A LONG TIME TO FIND THIS WAY WORKS FOR ME SO FAR, MANY DO OVERS TILL I GOT WHAT I WANTED,,,just one more comment i use a nail polish remover WITH 100% acotone to take parts apart PVA AND CA BOTH HAVE BEEN TOTALLY SUCESSFUL USING THIS I AM NO EXPERT BUT I AM AN EXPERT IN UNGLUING PARTS BRUSH IT ON THE JOINT, USE XACTO TO PRY IT LOSE DOINGIT CAREFULY MAYBE HAVE TO DO IT 2 or 3 times AND NO DAMAGE TO THE WOOD AT ALL NONE, GIVE IT A SLIGT SANDING LET IT DRY AND REGLUE. Don
 

AnobiumPunctatum

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For glueing paper on wood I use Marabu rubber cement. I don't have until now any problems to remove this from the wood. You don't need any water of alcohol to get the cement away. I've until now only build English styled single frames but will try adopt the way I do it at easter.
 

Norway

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I use PRITT, paper glue to glue the material on, when all adjustments are made,
then I scrape it off with a straight disposable knife blade (stanly).
This works for me.
Regards-
 
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